The Next President of the USA will be?

[DRUNK]

So being anti-war = being anti-America?

No, dumbass.

You might want to refresh on your math.

[Hermit]

Hermit, you are just anti Bush, anti war, and flat out anti America, and I am not sure anything will change your mind otherwise.

You have no idea what we are facing.

I condone all torture for the enemy. As I have said before, extreme violence and fear are the only things these maniacs will respond to. It's the only thing they respect. The only thing that may work. If you try to be nice and reasonable with them, you'll be wasting your time, because it won't work.

Waterboarding is a fucking joke to these people.

You are forgetting, they want to go to Paradise.

The people come from a society where violence is the norm. Where people are killed, have limbs chopped off, are executed, have female genital mutilation, rape, beatings etc etc.

You just don't know.

I'm "flat out anti-America"?

You fool of fools. You're the one who comes here saying

"America sucks; I'm going to live in Europe", aren't you?

You're the one saying, in effect, "torture is more effective than democracy".

And I never suggested "you try to be nice and reasonable with them".

You are wrong. Very wrong. In every way, wrong.

I love America,.. and I know that torture is not an American value.

It might a jihadists and DRUNK value, but it's not an American value.

It might be a Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld value, but it's not an American value.

And I do know of the violence in middle east cultures. I know of the beheadings, the suicide bombings, and the many other atrocities that are taking place over there related to this war. And I know of the violence that is part of the everyday culture as well.. the female circumcisions, the stonings, eyes gouged out and limbs chopped off.. all that barbaric shit. Violence has been part of that culture for many centuries. And I do know the very real threat that we face from radical extremist Islamic jihadists who are ruthless and barbaric and relentless in their determination to annihilate all who stand in their way.

I'm keenly.. acutely.. aware of all that. I assure you.

But you know what, DRUNK,..

I also know that torture is inhumane.

And I know that torture is illegal.

And I know that torture committed by civilians is a crime, and I know

that torture committed by military personnel during war is a war crime.

You can talk until you're blue in the face,..deluding yourself with all your fear-based rationalizations,.. but you will not change the simple, undeniable truth that torture is inhumane, and you will not change the fact that torture is a war crime.

And I don't care if "waterboarding is a joke to these people". That's not the point.. at all. This is not about "them"; it's about us. It's about OUR values and principles, not theirs. When we, as a nation, condone torture we have sunk to level of the jihadists,.. and they have won. Don't you get that?

If we condone the use of torture against our enemies, then we have no moral basis upon

which to condemn the torture of US troops (and/or our allies) at the hands of our enemies. Don't you get that?

"First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop. Second, mistreatment of our prisoners endangers U.S. troops, who might be captured by the enemy, if not in this war then in the next."

~ John McCain, December 2005

The Third Geneva Convention, which covers prisoners of war, says: "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

The Fourth Geneva Convention, which covers 'the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War' from the occupying power has less precise rules on interrogation but still bans all "physical or moral coercion" to obtain information.

Soon after 9/11, there was some confusion as to who was a Prisoner of War and/or protected by these Conventions. That was quickly put to rest with the following 7 Feb. 2002 memorandum from President Bush that directs, in part:

"Our values as a nation, values that we share with many nations in the world, call for us to treat detainees humanely, including those who are not legally entitled to such treatment. As a matter of policy, the U.S. armed forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely, and to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with the principles of Geneva."

*source*

Even though GWB doesn't share "our values as a nation", he knew enough to invoke

"our values as a nation" in creating an anti-torture smokescreen for his torture policies.

Don't sink to the level of the enemy, DRUNK.

Retract and renounce your torture advocacy, bud!

~H

[DRUNK]

You're the one who comes here saying

"America sucks; I'm going to live in Europe", aren't you?

You're the one saying, in effect, "torture is more effective than democracy".

And btw,.. I never suggested "you try to be nice and reasonable with them".

and I know that torture is not an American value.

And I don't care if "waterboarding is a joke to these people". That's not the point.. at all. This is not about "them"; it's about us. It's about OUR values and principles, not theirs. When we, as a nation, condone torture we have sunk to level of the jihadists,.. and they have won. Don't you get that?

If we condone the use of torture against our enemies, then we have no moral basis upon

which to condemn the torture of US troops at the hands of our enemies. Don't you get that?

Yes, America is going down the shitter and has been for awhile, and yes, I am going to Europe. The causes of that are far beyond the Bush administration and the war.

Never said "torture is more effective than democracy", and that doesn't even make any sense.

So how do you suggest we deal with them, Hermit?

Torture isn't a value, period. How do you equate torture with a "value?" Interrogation techniques are useful in the gathering of information that will protect our world, and also a deterrent to those who may be thinking of doing something that would possibly bring them into a situation where they might face US interrogators.

Sinking to their level........this sounds like some 1st grade classroom psychology. They don't give a fuck Hermit. They are the most dangerous people in the world, and they want the west destroyed. This isn't image, perception, or anything value oriented. This is about survival.

We are not fighting a uniformed enemy, and if we were, I have no doubt that the Geneva convention rules would be applied on both sides. However, we are fighting a sadistic, fanatical, ununiformed enemy which will kill innocent people(our citizens for example), and cut soldiers heads off, and many other sick examples.............

Cm'on man.

[Hermit]

Never said "torture is more effective than democracy", and that doesn't even make any sense.

You didnt say it; you alluded to it. Democratic principles and torture are not compatible, right? Right. Well, you said very clearly that you condone torture, and you also said you believe 'violence is the only way to deal with these people'. So I inferred that you deemed torture to be more effective than democratic principles and processes, ie, democracy.

If democratic principles are worth you risking your life and limb to fight

for, then why would you abandon those principles and advocate torture?

So how do you suggest we deal with them, Hermit?

If they are civilian detainees, they should be "dealt with"

as any other civilian detainee would be dealt with.

If they are military detainees, they should be "dealt with"

as any other military detainee would be dealt with.

What's the prob?

Torture isn't a value, period. How do you equate torture with a "value?" Interrogation techniques are useful in the gathering of information that will protect our world, and also a deterrent to those who may be thinking of doing something that would possibly bring them into a situation where they might face US interrogators.

I think there is no "sense of security" that is worth sacrificing one's own basic humanity and decency over. If you're willing to abandon your basic human decency in exchange for a sense of security, you have (metaphorically speaking..) "sold your soul", my friend. If you're willing to abandon your basic sense of human decency in exchange for a sense of security, you will have betrayed/sold out/abandoned your basic humanity. How tragic.

Torture (a form of disregarding/violating basic human rights) is not an American value. Acknowledging and respecting basic human rights is an American value. We acknowledge the basic human rights of even the most heinous of criminals. We have enough faith in the democratic judicial process that we do not take the law into our own hands.. we do not mete out revenge.. we do not beat information out of people.. we let the law administer justice. We are not afraid to afford criminals due process because that due process, more often than not, prevails and the criminals are held accountable for their crimes. Terrorists are criminals. We need not sink to the level of torturing them; we need merely capture them and try them in our courts and hold them accountable for their crimes.

Local, national, and international police and intelligence agencies can cooperate to prevent, as much as possible, future acts of terrorism. We needn't sell our souls.. ie, abandon our basic human decency.. in our attempt to establish a reasonable sense of safety and security for ourselves, our loved ones, our neighbors, our fellow countrymen, and.. our fellow human beings around the globe.

Sinking to their level........this sounds like some 1st grade classroom psychology. They don't give a fuck Hermit. They are the most dangerous people in the world, and they want the west destroyed. This isn't image, perception, or anything value oriented. This is about survival.

If they are that determined and that dangerous (and I believe they are) and they "dont

give a fuck",.. then even the possibility of being tortured will not serve as a deterrent.

..will it?

No, it wont.

[None of your rationales rationalizations are holding up, bud.]

Torturing jihadists in no way, shape, or form guarantees "our" survival, DRUNK. Not yours, not mine, not anyone's. Not America's. Not even the survival of western culture as we know it. The only thing that torturing jihadists guarantees is that we will be adding to the barbarism in our world; that we will be adding to the violence in our world; and we will be contributing to the decay of basic humanity in our world. We will be engaging in, and perpetuating, NEEDLESS violence in our world. That would be completely antithetical to who we are and what stand for, bro. ..wouldn't it?

This is about OUR values, DRUNK,.. not the values of jihadists.

And yes it certainly is about our image, and about the perceptions that others have of us.

If, that is, it's true that we're fighting in Iraq to "bring democracy to the middle east".

Is "bringing democracy to the middle east" one of the reasons we're in Iraq right

now, DRUNK,..or are we there for other reasons *cough*oil and profiteering*cough*?

How does the US advocating torture serve to convince anyone abroad

that Americans genuinely value democratic principles and human rights?

Answer: it doesn't.

We are not fighting a uniformed enemy, and if we were, I have no doubt that the Geneva convention rules would be applied on both sides. However, we are fighting a sadistic, fanatical, ununiformed enemy which will kill innocent people(our citizens for example), and cut soldiers heads off, and many other sick examples.............

Cm'on man.

This is not about what they are willing to do.

This about what we are willing, and unwilling, to do.

In fighting our foes, we must not become that which we condemn.

Get it (yet)?

C'mon man.. retract and renounce your support for torture!

[allthekingshorses]

Any Predictions out there for today?

I will predict...

Obama to win NC by 11%

Obama to win IN by 1%

[Absolutentonic]

Any Predictions out there for today?

I will predict...

Obama to win NC by 11%

Obama to win IN by 1%

Hillary wins Indiana by 3

Obama wins N Car by 5

Race continues

[Audacity]

We've still got 3 in the hunt for the presidency. With Obama positioned between Hillary and McCain, she seems to be the most visible with McCain somewhat in the back, out of the limelight.

Anyone have a spoon?

[wanna be drummer]

Hermit, you are just anti Bush, anti war, and flat out anti America, and I am not sure anything will change your mind otherwise.

How do you figure?

[Pb Derigable]

Would somebody please explain how these stimulus checks are only for the rich when i only got $356 dollars back because i made over the max amount and they take 5 cents off for every dollar over that amount. my mother who only made 8,000, got as much back as i did.

I wanted to buy 600 tacos for $600.

[Absolutentonic]

We've still got 3 in the hunt for the presidency. With Obama positioned between Hillary and McCain, she seems to be the most visible with McCain somewhat in the back, out of the limelight.

Anyone have a spoon?

Yeah the chocolate always wins. Hey PB, 600 Taco's?? Taco Bell junky or what?

[allthekingshorses]

Would somebody please explain how these stimulus checks are only for the rich when i only got $356 dollars back because i made over the max amount and they take 5 cents off for every dollar over that amount. my mother who only made 8,000, got as much back as i did.

I wanted to buy 600 tacos for $600.

I'm not sure what you mean by stimulus checks being only for the rich.... if your are refering to Bush Tax cuts benefitting the rich then that's different.

Bush tax cuts go beyond the refunds.. investment and capital gains taxes were lowered giving people who make money on investing and real estate a break.... the complaint was that those people weren't the ones who needed it.

not that is matters but I love neopolitan! or... a Choco Taco is good too.

[Pb Derigable]

I'm not sure what you mean by stimulus checks being only for the rich.... if your are refering to Bush Tax cuts benefitting the rich then that's different.

Bush tax cuts go beyond the refunds.. investment and capital gains taxes were lowered giving people who make money on investing and real estate a break.... the complaint was that those people weren't the ones who needed it.

not that is matters but I love neopolitan! or... a Choco Taco is good too.

Yeah i know thats a completly different thing, but people in the media been crying that the stimulus is only for the rich for some reason.

[Pb Derigable]

Rosie O'Donnell was on fox news today and she stated that Rev. Wright made sense. A commentator asked what about the A.I.D.S. statement he made, as Rosie said, well that was the media picking apart his statement and only showing a clip of it.

Rosie might be a pinhead

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html...p;sMPlaylistID=

[Absolutentonic]

Well Hermit, PB and allthekingshorses, they are reporting record turnouts at the polls in each state. Should be an interesting night. If there is a split like the polls are predicting, the battle continues. Obama is favored in N Car and Hillary has the poll lead in Ind as you all know.

[Stargazer]

isn't it fun how DUNK get's bitch slaped over and over again.

he just fals to me as a very biter and angry person, I really do pitty him.

[zosodude13]

if the dems are smart (which they arnt, as this election proves) they would end it tonight if Barack wins Indiana and NC... but since it doesnt look good in Indiana, the bloodbath will continue for the dems...... unless

the superdelegates finally to get off their asses and pick a side after tonight, since the results tonight will show who truely has momentum iun the election... or else the dems will throw away a election that was handed to them on a silver platter after everything with Dubya & Co.

[Hotplant]

NORTH CAROLINA and INDIANA..ers Please get out and vote!!!!

Obama

[Absolutentonic]

NORTH CAROLINA and INDIANA..ers Please get out and vote!!!!

Obama

You sound like a cheerleader jumpiing up and down for a class c high school team. And if your Obama wins, then what? He cant even remember the name of the person he was talking to the night before. this country is in big trouble if he wins. He is the reason why right wing Republicans hate the leftists. He is a loose cannon, a liar, and has no business being in the race.

NOBAMA "08

[allthekingshorses]

You sound like a cheerleader jumpiing up and down for a class c high school team. And if your Obama wins, then what? He cant even remember the name of the person he was talking to the night before. this country is in big trouble if he wins. He is the reason why right wing Republicans hate the leftists. He is a loose cannon, a liar, and has no business being in the race.

NOBAMA "08

well with a mentality like that, you have no business voting in this race....

um.... loose cannon anyone???

[Absolutentonic]

well with a mentality like that, you have no business voting in this race....

um.... loose cannon anyone???

With what mentality? Because I dont support your unproven new idol? You are typical of the people on this board.

[Mattmc1973]

You sound like a cheerleader jumpiing up and down for a class c high school team. And if your Obama wins, then what? He cant even remember the name of the person he was talking to the night before. this country is in big trouble if he wins. He is the reason why right wing Republicans hate the leftists. He is a loose cannon, a liar, and has no business being in the race.

NOBAMA "08

We'd be in no worse trouble than we are now after 8 years of 'W'. He's a liar who never had any business being in the race either, yet here we are.

So, who knows...

[Absolutentonic]

We'd be in no worse trouble than we are now after 8 years of 'W'. He's a liar who never had any business being in the race either, yet here we are.

So, who knows...

But here is a chance to change. And now we are going to perhaps wind up with worse.

NOBAMA "08

[Electrophile]

You are typical of the people on this board.

Says the person who keeps registering under new user names.

[allthekingshorses]

With what mentality? Because I dont support your unproven new idol? You are typical of the people on this board.

you were pretty harsh sounding in that comment to HotPlant. Yeah, I'm typical... the typical Led Zeppelin fan.

[Pb Derigable]

He is the reason why right wing Republicans hate the leftists.

NOBAMA "08

We don't hate all leftists, We just hate the extreme lefties. Which both Hilrod and Obama H. are technicaly far left, but Hilrod is not a cooky as Rosie and Micheal moore, and Obama has his pastor to do all his talking for him.

but thats the same deal why Lefties hate the righties.