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the piper

Meanings in Led Zep songs

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While...

Yes! ALL reasoning is self-referential, but can be strongly influenced thru meme.

A meme (pronounced [miːm] in IPA), as defined within memetic theory, comprises a theoretical unit of cultural information, the building block of cultural evolution or diffusion that propagates from one mind to another analogously to the way in which a gene propagates from one organism to another as a unit of genetic information and of biological evolution.[1] Multiple memes may propagate as cooperative groups called memeplexes (meme complexes).

Biologist and evolutionary theorist Richard Dawkins coined the term meme in 1976.[2] He gave as examples tunes, catch-phrases, beliefs, clothing fashions, ways of making pots, and the technology of building arches.

Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (similarly to Darwinian biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual entity's reproductive success. So with memes, some ideas will propagate less successfully and become extinct, while others will survive, spread, and, for better or for worse, mutate. "Memeticists argue that the memes most beneficial to their hosts will not necessarily survive; rather, those memes that replicate the most effectively spread best, which allows for the possibility that successful memes may prove detrimental to their hosts."[3]

A short story written in 1876 by Mark Twain, A Literary Nightmare, describes his encounter with a jingle so "catchy" that it plays over and over in his mind until he finally sings it out loud and infects others (also known as an earworm).

A successful meme must perform two actions:

- Ensure it takes up long-term residence in its host.

- Bring about the conditions for its spread.

To establish itself in the mind of its host it will use some or all of the following mechanisms:

[1] Promise heaven for belief.

[2] Threaten eternal punishment in hell for disbelief.

[3] Boost the believers' egos by telling them they are 'chosen' or superior to believers in false memes.

[4] Disable the faculties of disbelief ('immune response') by claiming that faith is superior to reason.

[5] Establish itself as the One True Meme, usually by some sort of holy book containing a circular self-referential argument such as:

X is the one true meme. We know X is the one true meme because The Source of Universal Truth has approved X. We know The Source of Universal Truth has approved X, because X contains statements which say so. We know what X says is true because X is the one true meme.

Once it has parasitised the mind of its host, a meme needs to propagate itself. A successful meme will contain instructions for some or all of the following:

[6] Holy war - convert or kill all unbelievers.

[7] Intimidation and terrorism - threaten and discriminate against unbelievers.

[8] Enforced social isolation or even death to apostates. (An apostate is a host which has cured itself of a meme-infection. It is especially dangerous to the meme because it might pass on meme-resistance to others).

[9] Fecundism - encourage true believers to breed faster than believers in false memes.

[10] Censorship - prevent rival memes from reaching potential hosts (a theological doctrine known as 'Error has no rights').

[11] Disinformation - spread lies about rival memes. Demonise them - the bigger the lies the more likely they are to be believed. The disinformation may even include instructions for a meme to lie about itself!

Edited by SteveAJones

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Yes...

Nice quoting style btw, Steve.

Or should I say SteveWJones :D

Memes are interesting models of how things get transferred from one brain to the next.

My problem with memes is that if a meme in one person's mind is communicated to another person's mind, the criteria for making a meme stick doesn't work for me.

The reason is that the meaning of a meme can easily, oh so very easily, be misinterpreted.

The criteria for an attractive meme also changed within cultures as well!

If a meme is the smallest unit then how can it be confused with anything else?

Various reasons, like those found in schema theory.

In other words, schemas are all about what you expect in a given situation.

For instance, you have a schema for what it's like to listen to a song, because you expect some audio. Not just any audio though. It has to be musical, which relies on your own schema for what that is too, and so on.

Any detachment from your expected schema of a given situation causes you to go "hey, wtf just happened?"

So sometimes, memes don't stick because they're not what the receiver is expecting at all. It may have little to do with how attractive the meme is to the host.

The receiver may ask for clarification, or not!

If I told you the cure for cancer but I didn't tell you exactly what I was telling first, so that you weren't expecting something profound, you'd probably think I was crazy.

(If not already :D)

...

In the Led Zeppelin meanings context, you probably already have a schema for what a song with that has the word "heaven" in the title is supposed to entail.

This greatly influences how you view the song, based on your previously attributed meanings of "heaven".

When there is a line in Stairway that doesn't fit your schema for the title, you stop and say "hey what did he mean by that?"

Schema theory is also a model as well, which means it's just a systematic way for us to think about how our brain works.

Since we don't really know how it works, a model is the best we can do to trace our thoughts.

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Memes...

Oh, I like you.

In lieu of consensus on memes a conflict can arise, which may lead to attempts to convert or compel.

It's far too early in the morning for me to articulate how familiar passages of music "inscribe"

themselves within the "passages" of our brains, but I'm sure you already know where I'm going.

There are comfort foods, there is comfort music! After repeated listenings, as the sylus hits the grooves of Led Zeppelin IV your anticipation of what is to come may be diminished from the level it was upon the very first listening, but the EFFECT the music has on you grows stronger.

Not to sound like High School Musical 2, but it does become the music in you! :)

Edited by SteveAJones

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It's far too early in the morning for me to articulate how familiar passages of music "inscribe"

themselves within the "passages" of our brains, but I'm sure you already know where I'm going.

Man, I'm so glad I quit smoking before reading those last posts!!!!

Some seriously heavy stuff that IMO, has nothing to do with a big legged woman not having no soul.

Damn you and guitararmy should sign up for Prof Goodwin's course out in Cali and blow his freaking mind!!!

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Amen! And I think Stairway is one of those songs.

I don't understand why people who do not understand Stairway, bash those who try to understand it. And then by me saying that, you'd think im foolish enough to look for deep meaning in the song, while you think its not that deep. People often look for the simple answer for something far to complicated for them to understand.

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There's no bashing here.

Some people interpret the song one way, others another, and some not at all.

Edited by SteveAJones

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The Pied Piper led the rats out of the village. Pan was the God of Music. Anyway, we found out earlier today that Roger Daltrey, Robert Plant and some other guy wrote a bunch of songs in the early '70s to lay the groundwork for a pan-Islamic revolution. It can't be all bad as it might keep The Who from touring again.

Boy it's been a few days since I've been on here....

Yes I know the piper tale, i'm quite familiar with it. The pied piper did lead rats, but you neglect the rest of the story. But anyhow, after reading your "Pan God of Music" book on the thread here it seems to fit your theory.

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Yes I know the piper tale, i'm quite familiar with it. The pied piper did lead rats, but you neglect the rest of the story. But anyhow, after reading your "Pan God of Music" book on the thread here it seems to fit your theory.

Oh, I'm not saying Pan IS the piper referenced in the song. I am saying there's a real

possibility the piper in the song was influenced or inspired to some degree by Plant's awareness of Pan. For all I know the piper in the song is Sir Edward Heath.

Edited by SteveAJones

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Oh, I'm not saying Pan IS the piper referenced in the song. I am saying there's a real

possibility the piper in the song was influenced or inspired to some degree by Plant's awareness of Pan. For all I know the piper in the song is Sir Edward Heath.

I thought I told all of you that I am the piper. Anyway, to understand who the piper is, one must study the music of Yes. I will attempt to quote as best as I can from memory the lyrics of "And You and I"--forgive me if I miss some phrases.

A man conceived the moments answers to the dream

Staying the flowers daily sensing all the themes

As the foundation left to create the spiral aim

A movement regained and regarded both the same

All complete in the sight of seeds of life with you

Changed only for the space of sight and sound agreed

Between the picture of time, behind the face of need

Coming quickly to terms of all expressions laid

Emotions revealed as the Ocean Maid

And a movement regained and regarded both the same

.........

Coins and crosses never know their fruitless worth

Contact broken, locked inside the Mother Earth

.....

Watching the world, watching all of the world, watching us go by.

And you and I climb clearer towards the movement

And you and I reach over the sun for the river

......

Sad preacher nailed upon the color door of time

Insane teacher be there reminded of the rhyme

There'll be no mutant enemies we shall certify

Political ends as sad remains will die

Reach out as forward tastes begin to enter you.. oooh ooh

I listened hard but could not see

Life's tempo changes in and outside of me

The preacher trained in all to loose his name

The teacher travels asking to be shown the same

In the end we'll agree, we'll accept, we'll immortalize

That the Truth that the man maturing in His eyes

And you and I climb clearer towards the movement

....

--- YES- "And You and I"

SteveAJones...you're pretty perceptive.....listening to too much music like me when you were younger? Perhaps partaking too much in youth also?

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SteveAJones...you're pretty perceptive.....listening to too much music like me when you were younger? Perhaps partaking too much in youth also?

I'd fall asleep at night with a radio under my pillow, tuned in to a hip AM or FM station.

Have never touched drugs though, and never will, if that's what you meant.

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Steve, the side comment distracted you. Sorry for the partaking part.....was just trying to make a little humor because I felt the lyrics to "And You and I" were too heavy. Anyway, I was anticipating a longer, more analytical response from a man of your perception.

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The Yes song has no chorus so we have to keep open the possibility that Plant wrote it?

I do not understand. Is this a question, a possibility or sarcasm?

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This then will be my end of this thread. If you will allow me some indulgence:

Plant's prayer:

Oh Father of the four winds fill my sails

Across the sea of years

With no provisions but an open face

Guard (?) the straits of fear

Yes there are two paths you can go back

But in the long run

There's still time to change the road you're on

When all is one and one is all

To be a rock, and not to roll

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This then will be my end of this thread. If you will allow me some indulgence:

Plant's prayer:

Your alright piper. I look forward to participating in your next thread.

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A lot of Led Zeppelin songs were related to Owaine Glyndwr, the welsh prince of Walesa, battles, castles, legends. Robert Plant is a member of the Society.

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I don't understand why people who do not understand Stairway, bash those who try to understand it. And then by me saying that, you'd think im foolish enough to look for deep meaning in the song, while you think its not that deep. People often look for the simple answer for something far to complicated for them to understand.

Who the hell bashed anyone? I gave my opinion, which is that there is no deep meaning to Stairway, at least none intended by Robert Plant. If you want to look for it, knock yourself out. But it's ludicrous to say I hold my opinion just because it's too complicated for me to understand. Puhleeze.

Edited by infidel

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LEMON SONG

It is a said song (although RP refers to it now endearingly). While you guys feel what he is saying. I feel for the other person, on the other end of the song. It must be difficult for women to have a boyfriend/husband who is on the road all the time 80% away from home.

It's also tough for the members of the band too. I mean dealing with the groupies and all.

If they'd let one girl in, they're expected to let the other girls in too.

Then at the end of the day, they're still alone, far from home.

Edited by Michelle of Los Angeles CA

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It's...(edit)

Oh sure, it must have been brutal for them. Sleep in til 4pm, wake up next to Lori Lightning, play the Forum, meet Bebe Buell backstage, hang out at the Rainbow

till dawn. Return to Lori. Get said lemon squeezed. :)

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LEMON SONG

It is a said song (although RP refers to it now endearingly). While you guys feel what he is saying. I feel for the other person, on the other end of the song. It must be difficult for women to have a boyfriend/husband who is on the road all the time 80% away from home.

It's also tough for the members of the band too. I mean dealing with the groupies and all.

If they'd let one girl in, they're expected to let the other girls in too.

Then at the end of the day, they're still alone, far from home.

MY APOLOGIES FOLKS - I think I put this in the wrong thread.

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Man, I'm so glad I quit smoking before reading those last posts!!!!

Some seriously heavy stuff that IMO, has nothing to do with a big legged woman not having no soul.

Damn you and guitararmy should sign up for Prof Goodwin's course out in Cali and blow his freaking mind!!!

Someone said there should be a class taught and I said I'd look in to it and forgot. Nestor, isn't that taught at UCLA? South :blink::blink:

Rolls>>> :wacko:

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A lot of Led Zeppelin songs were related to Owaine Glyndwr, the welsh prince of Walesa, battles, castles, legends. Robert Plant is a member of the Society.
garden_plant_340x2551.jpg

HE MOST CERTAINLY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! desirezep u welsh?

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A lot of Led Zeppelin songs were related to Owaine Glyndwr, the welsh prince of Walesa, battles, castles, legends. Robert Plant is a member of the Society.

Thats interesting...."All will be revealed"

Ok, so We've learned (spiritualy) in recent months that JPJ is a Free Mason, and here in this forum that JP is into Thalema (spelling?) and Robert is a member of Owaine Glyndwr...

Interesting mix.

Anyone have a clue what Bonham's spiritual interest was?

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Who the hell bashed anyone? I gave my opinion, which is that there is no deep meaning to Stairway, at least none intended by Robert Plant. If you want to look for it, knock yourself out. But it's ludicrous to say I hold my opinion just because it's too complicated for me to understand. Puhleeze.

It is known that led zeppelin has intertwined mysticism within their music. They have shared some of that in early interviews. By doing so in the public arena they open themselves up to being analyzed.

Same as a politician, if you dont want anyone scrutinzing your work, then stay in the closet.

You cant have it both ways, you profited from the public domain and you are going to be annalyzed until the cows come home.

"Talk of days for which they sit and wait, all will be revealed"

Ummmmm we are still waiting! Does anyone have the balls to be honest.

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He also said something to the effect of "every singer has six good songs, and while the

words may change he'll sing those same six songs over and over". Having looked at an

Elton John Discography, I'll submit him as exhibit A.

(He also said something to the effect of "every singer has six good songs, and while the

words may change he'll sing those same six songs over and over". )

ACK! You gave away the ultimate secret of Led Zeppelin music. Every song has elements of its counterparts. Which is why its so addicting, we are being fooled again and again.

I've stated this before, and no offense intended. But besides different tunings, musicaly what is the difference between "Over the hills and far away", "Ten Years Gone" = nothing. The song remains the same and they are all the same tune re-invented over and over again.

Someone said in an earlier post that the lyrics are luciferian....hmmm, I sure hope not...I'm hoping it was young rockers doing their thing in that time and lets face it, that is what sells on terra firma. But if that is indeed true.

It was nice knowing ya! (I'm a member of a society that states, lucifer doesnt exist-never did....though I personally believe every one has a right to believe what they choose and respect everyones personal right to believe what they choose)

and jumping to yet another thread of if they should tour or not...they are going to be discected like never before in this isntant information age. I'm not sure even they know what they are getting themselves into. Propoganda sells, propoganda motivates, propoganda provokes...what we have seen in the past will be nothing compared to what will come.

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