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overthehillsandfaraway

Horse Racing Thread

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Yeah, I can hear PETA having a hayday as a result of todays injury at the Derby. Although I suppose these types of injuries are to be expected when an animal of this young age is made to compete at this level. So much muscle mass and speed on bones that are not fully developed.

But that being said, anyone who allows a Thoroughbred to be bred knowing of a problem is a piece of shit. Right now a friend of mine is just about to have her horse put down due to scale four lameness. She had tried over the last two years to rehabilitate the horse to at least be sound enough to trail ride. However, unfortunatly the horse is only getting worse. But the sick thing is; you would be shocked at how many breeders want my friend to "donate" her horse to them for breeding anyway. So damn irresponsible and greedy of some breeders.

Kudos to your friend. Unfortunately, there are a lot of unscrupulous folks, and not just Thoroughbred breeders either.

A few weeks ago we had to put down our 29 year old retired racing Quarter Horse. Some folks would've sold her at auction a few years ago, but we wouldn't... she'd been a good broodmare for us, and deserved to have a decent retirement. It was a rough event though. She had a lot of heart and "there wasn't any quit in her"... so she was almost literally dead on her feet after the sedation but she wouldn't go down, and her trying to stay on her feet made it difficult to get the actual euthanasia drugs in her. It was all reflex and instinct at that deep level... I don't think she was really even concious, but it was hard... real hard. I was in tears, the vet tech nearly was, and the vet was upset... said it was the toughest one he'd ever done. Despite that, it was still the right thing to do, no doubt about it.

As usual a horse had to be put down again. <_<<_<

Makes me sick!

They should drug test them, due to so much corruption in horse racing. Scary. :(

They do get drug tested.

It is very sad. But the horses are very well treated. Treated better than the jockeys. It doesnt happen often. It just gives the sport a black eye when it happens in such a big race witnessed by so many. You may watch racing for a year and not see this. But unfortunatley it happened two years in a row in Triple Crown. Big Brown is going to break the thirty year hex.

That's for the horses that make it that far. A lot of horses don't ever get to the track due to injuries during training, starting gate accidents, etc. We've had a couple Thoroughbreds and several Quarter Horses with racing pedigrees. I won't go into details on some of the 'mistakes' that were made, but there are a couple of trainers we won't ever have anything to with again. It was ignorance or indifference, but either way, we won't repeat that mistake again.

... and Big Brown... go for it!

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A few weeks ago we had to put down our 29 year old retired racing Quarter Horse. Some folks would've sold her at auction a few years ago, but we wouldn't... she'd been a good broodmare for us, and deserved to have a decent retirement. It was a rough event though. She had a lot of heart and "there wasn't any quit in her"... so she was almost literally dead on her feet after the sedation but she wouldn't go down, and her trying to stay on her feet made it difficult to get the actual euthanasia drugs in her. It was all reflex and instinct at that deep level... I don't think she was really even concious, but it was hard... real hard. I was in tears, the vet tech nearly was, and the vet was upset... said it was the toughest one he'd ever done. Despite that, it was still the right thing to do, no doubt about it.

Sorry to hear about that Lakey. I've seen several horses put down over the years, and it has always been a very emotional experience for the people involved. I know I am going to need to be with my friend when she has her horse put down. We even need to trailer the horse to another stable just to avoid some of the "politics" involved, as unfortunate as that sounds. A lot of people are against my friend euthanizing this horse, even though her condition is not going to improve, the lameness is just getting worse.

I have a lot of respect for people who take proper care ot the animals they have chosen to be responsible for. And I have an equal amount of respect for owners who make the right decision to end it when the time is correct. There is never a need to allow an animal to linger on in pain and misery, or be pawned off rather than deal with the situation.

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So....Was I the only one who caught the announcer's reference to "implants" ? :rolleyes:

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You can watch the race here: http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2008/

Big Brown looks like he is for real. It would be nice to see him capture the Triple Crown. I'm going to try sneak over to Pimilico and hopefully see him work out one day.

To me he is a lock in the Preakness. The question is always the Belmont. I think at least 4 or 5 have won the first two in the last 30 yrs and failed to win the Belmont. this time I believe it will be differant. The only two horses that could make a late run in the Belmont and make trouble for him will be Colonel John (and why did they put Nakatani on a great horse-dont get it?) or Gayego, has the later running style and just maybe Court Vision. But I like Big Browns chances-alot.

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Sorry to hear about that Lakey. I've seen several horses put down over the years, and it has always been a very emotional experience for the people involved. I know I am going to need to be with my friend when she has her horse put down. We even need to trailer the horse to another stable just to avoid some of the "politics" involved, as unfortunate as that sounds. A lot of people are against my friend euthanizing this horse, even though her condition is not going to improve, the lameness is just getting worse.

I have a lot of respect for people who take proper care ot the animals they have chosen to be responsible for. And I have an equal amount of respect for owners who make the right decision to end it when the time is correct. There is never a need to allow an animal to linger on in pain and misery, or be pawned off rather than deal with the situation.

My sympathies too Lakey, also to you Del.

My 23 year old Arab mare is profoundly lame now, messed up the annular ligament in her left rear hock. She's been ridiculously healthy and sound her entire life, in fact the exam for this was the first time she'd had a large dose of sedative and she was a cheap drunk, practically fell on top of the vet. She's been my best friend for a long time, gave me a beautiful filly 8 years ago, and she's off to surgery in a few weeks. Even if it turns out well, as the vet says it will, it's a whisper of things to come, and is very upsetting. They're such spiritual and giving creatures, I can't even stand to think about it.

About this race and racing in general... good heavens, Eight Belles gave it her all, probably only second because of her injuries, which were probably worsening with each stride, and she was only out run by the best horse in years. I know horses love to work, love to run, and I don't have anything against racing per se. But it's a sin and a crime to run them so young, and to have a field that huge, with one filly in a huge group of colts. Doesn't anyone in that business have a lick of sense? That was a nasty display of human greed.

I was in Louisville on business a few years ago and had some time on my hands, so I went to Churchill Downs, where a quiet little meet was going on. Very few people about. Never been so close to the track before and was watching the horses up close, a field of two year olds. Absolute babies, terrified and pushed way beyond their limits. It was eye opening and quite nauseating.

There's enough money in this game that there should be a law against racing horses younger than four years old, far as I'm concerned. Make fun of PETA if you must, but these fantastic animals don't deserve to be exploited literally to death as Eight Belles was.

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[quote Well there is talk that they are investigating the jockey. But if they are going to investigate, they should investigate the trainer. To think that this horse would have beaten Big Brown is crazy. Hell, he drew post 20 and destroyed the field. He will win the preakness for fun. Do you really think that anyone wants this to happen to a horse in this business?/ If you do you are dead wrong.

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It happens frequently enough without anyone doing much to stop it, that an awful lot of people must think it's just business as usual, yes. Apparently it only really sucks when the news cameras catch it. What a bummer for the business it happened that way two years in a row...

Eight Belles came up on the outside right near Big Brown and was closest to him at the finish, even though she was a smaller horse who was a few strides from a life-ending catastrophic injury. In different circumstances it would've been a very interesting match up, for sure. Of course, she's dead, so we'll never know.

I feel as bad as everyone that this horse had to be put down. All I am saying is that it is not intended. And if you had a match race with that philly against Big Brown, where he wouldnt have to spot the field many lengths because of being placed in the auxilliary gate, no contest. He is by far the best horse. the only horse that is in his league is Colonel John and perhaps Gayago. But Colonel John came from the poly, and raced for the first time on dirt. Ill give him that excuse and Ill have to look at the form to see what kind of trip he had. I do agree that 20 is too many. They need to make the standards tougher and not allow so many in. I wonder what Secretariat would have done from the auxilliary gate? I dont know whey the trainer for Colonel John didnt try and get J Valesquez or Gomez. I wouldnt give Nakatani another chance to screw up a great horse. He sucks.

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There's enough money in this game that there should be a law against racing horses younger than four years old, far as I'm concerned. Make fun of PETA if you must, but these fantastic animals don't deserve to be exploited literally to death as Eight Belles was.

Sunchild,

Well, my biggest problem with the sport is just that the age seems to be a bit too young for the bone development. Eight Belles stood something like 17 hands, she was a big horse. And even if most of the injuries happen long before a day like this one... and are more commonly ligament related. It still causes me to stop a wonder about the bone development.

Did anybody hear what actually happened? Was it a mis-step after the finish, or something else? I saw Big Brown spook just after he turned around. But I never saw Eight Belles go down.

In regards to PETA, I have heard them make some good points on many aspects of this sport and others. But since they are such a radical fringe in my opinion, most of their arguements end up falling onto deaf ears. They can bring up issues about the training in this sport, and the rules that allow for such young horses to race. But when some of their members go out and throw red paint on people wearing fur, or stand outside a McDonalds shouting "meat is murder" as moms and kids are arriving to have a 'Happy Meal'... they lose all credibilty. I don't know if you said you are a member of that group or not. But they would need to fix their organization before they stand much of a chance of convincing change in other areas of our culture. IMO.

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Eight belles jockey said she galloped funny right after the finish line, so he tried to slow her down and the video just showed her breaking down and throwing the jockey off head first. Big brown was spooked when he rode back towards hers. I thought the 8 belles rider was thrown off before the race started when the crowd roared to greet her. i could be wrong because nobody said anything. the traineer said the jockey did nothing qrong and most peole agree this is the first time a horse broke after the race and both ankels were fucked.

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Go Seabiscuit!

B)

Great movie. But like Cigar, Seabiscuit didnt blossom as a 3 yr old. Great older horses they were. I am wondering what the connections of Big Brown will do if and when he wins the Triple Crown for the first time in 30 yrs. Do you retire him to stud or run him one more time in the Breeders Cup $4 million dollar classic??? Tough choice they will have if he gets it done and I believe he will.

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I will be surprise if big brown dos not win the triple crown. only one horse besides brown from the derby will race in the Preakness, I'm thinking things will be done so big brown will win the triple crown for the sake of the sport.

Barboroo and Eight bells were in the same blood line and both suffered ankle problems. Brown will race in the breeders if he wins the triple crown because his value as a stud will not decrease if he loses.

the UPS truck just pulled up to my house and Big brown the horse is named after UPS.

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I will be surprise if big brown dos not win the triple crown. only one horse besides brown from the derby will race in the Preakness, I'm thinking things will be done so big brown will win the triple crown for the sake of the sport.

Barboroo and Eight bells were in the same blood line and both suffered ankle problems. Brown will race in the breeders if he wins the triple crown because his value as a stud will not decrease if he loses.

the UPS truck just pulled up to my house and Big brown the horse is named after UPS.

Yes indeed. But I hope you arent implying they are going to hand it to him on a silver platter? They backed out because it is a shorter race than the Derby and they know their horses cant beat him at that distance. Ill bet that Gayago and Court Vision show up for the Belmont. If he wins it he deserves it as no horse has done it in 30 yrs. That said, Afleet Alex should have won, and only traffic problems kept him from winning. Remember him? The horse that almost fell on the turn in the Belmont and still won the race. Big Brown should win it if no bad luck occurs.

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I hate when somebody implies that something is rigged, but if only a few of the top horses compete in the Belmont, the sports writers are going to have a field day comparing Big brown to every other triple crown winner, because the lack of competition.

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I hate when somebody implies that something is rigged, but if only a few of the top horses compete in the Belmont, the sports writers are going to have a field day comparing Big brown to every other triple crown winner, because the lack of competition.

His final times in the races may undue some of the criticism if they are good enough. But hell, the immortalized Secretariat who holds many track records to this day, didnt have to face 19 horses and deal with traffic problems. the great Cigar is unrespected by some because he wasnt a champion til later on. He was a hell of a horse that won I believe 16 in a row and did it all over the place. Even in Dubai. If Big Brown wins, I think he will get respect. The horses that pulled out of the Preakness may return for the marathon Belmont. (some of them that are bred for distance and are deep closers). I dont think it will matter though. I think we have a winner finally.

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My sympathies too Lakey, also to you Del.

My 23 year old Arab mare is profoundly lame now, messed up the annular ligament in her left rear hock. She's been ridiculously healthy and sound her entire life, in fact the exam for this was the first time she'd had a large dose of sedative and she was a cheap drunk, practically fell on top of the vet. She's been my best friend for a long time, gave me a beautiful filly 8 years ago, and she's off to surgery in a few weeks. Even if it turns out well, as the vet says it will, it's a whisper of things to come, and is very upsetting. They're such spiritual and giving creatures, I can't even stand to think about it.

Best of luck to both of you... and I'm glad you get to enjoy such a friend.

About this race and racing in general... good heavens, Eight Belles gave it her all, probably only second because of her injuries, which were probably worsening with each stride, and she was only out run by the best horse in years. I know horses love to work, love to run, and I don't have anything against racing per se. But it's a sin and a crime to run them so young, and to have a field that huge, with one filly in a huge group of colts. Doesn't anyone in that business have a lick of sense? That was a nasty display of human greed.

I was in Louisville on business a few years ago and had some time on my hands, so I went to Churchill Downs, where a quiet little meet was going on. Very few people about. Never been so close to the track before and was watching the horses up close, a field of two year olds. Absolute babies, terrified and pushed way beyond their limits. It was eye opening and quite nauseating.

There's enough money in this game that there should be a law against racing horses younger than four years old, far as I'm concerned. Make fun of PETA if you must, but these fantastic animals don't deserve to be exploited literally to death as Eight Belles was.

The age horses are raced at is much too young IMO as well. Run a horse as a two year old and they retire from racing at age 5 or so. A lot of horses (non-racing ones anyway) are just reaching their prime at that age. Most non-racing horses aren't even trained for riding until they're two... or three.

Sunchild,

Well, my biggest problem with the sport is just that the age seems to be a bit too young for the bone development. Eight Belles stood something like 17 hands, she was a big horse. And even if most of the injuries happen long before a day like this one... and are more commonly ligament related. It still causes me to stop a wonder about the bone development.

I think a lot of injuries are due to cumulative stress/injury. I think they're pushed too far, too fast.

I think of it like some of the Olympic athletes we have. Some of the sports have very young contestants... 16 year old, sometimes even 13-14 year old gymnasts and skaters, etc... so you know they started at much younger ages than that... and they're retired by the time they hit their twenties.

Did anybody hear what actually happened? Was it a mis-step after the finish, or something else? I saw Big Brown spook just after he turned around. But I never saw Eight Belles go down.

In regards to PETA, I have heard them make some good points on many aspects of this sport and others. But since they are such a radical fringe in my opinion, most of their arguements end up falling onto deaf ears. They can bring up issues about the training in this sport, and the rules that allow for such young horses to race. But when some of their members go out and throw red paint on people wearing fur, or stand outside a McDonalds shouting "meat is murder" as moms and kids are arriving to have a 'Happy Meal'... they lose all credibilty. I don't know if you said you are a member of that group or not. But they would need to fix their organization before they stand much of a chance of convincing change in other areas of our culture. IMO.

I didn't hear yet exactly what happened, but I did see some of the footage briefly... and I don't care to watch it again.

I understand what you're saying about PETA and I agree with some of it. They ARE extreme and I don't agree with some of their stances or their way of bringing attention to it. However, as extreme as they are, and regardless of their credibility, they do bring things to the public's attention. As a result, some folks start looking at the issues raised and sometimes things get changed. Turning lab animals loose that have never been 'free' can be really foolish and ironically dangerous for the lab animals... BUT the way lab animals are obtained, treated during their 'careers', discarded afterwards, etc. have been changed as a result.

(But then, I tend to think that 'radical fringe groups' serve a very valuable purpose... and that is to get attention placed upon issues that otherwise aren't considered, or maybe even known. Sometimes that is what it takes. I often don't think the radical 'solutions' these groups come up with are practical or appropriate... but the change that does result may very well not come about without the radical fringe element making a lot of noise about the issue at hand.

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Best of luck to both of you... and I'm glad you get to enjoy such a friend.

The age horses are raced at is much too young IMO as well. Run a horse as a two year old and they retire from racing at age 5 or so. A lot of horses (non-racing ones anyway) are just reaching their prime at that age. Most non-racing horses aren't even trained for riding until they're two... or three.

I think a lot of injuries are due to cumulative stress/injury. I think they're pushed too far, too fast.

I think of it like some of the Olympic athletes we have. Some of the sports have very young contestants... 16 year old, sometimes even 13-14 year old gymnasts and skaters, etc... so you know they started at much younger ages than that... and they're retired by the time they hit their twenties.

I didn't hear yet exactly what happened, but I did see some of the footage briefly... and I don't care to watch it again.

I understand what you're saying about PETA and I agree with some of it. They ARE extreme and I don't agree with some of their stances or their way of bringing attention to it. However, as extreme as they are, and regardless of their credibility, they do bring things to the public's attention. As a result, some folks start looking at the issues raised and sometimes things get changed. Turning lab animals loose that have never been 'free' can be really foolish and ironically dangerous for the lab animals... BUT the way lab animals are obtained, treated during their 'careers', discarded afterwards, etc. have been changed as a result.

(But then, I tend to think that 'radical fringe groups' serve a very valuable purpose... and that is to get attention placed upon issues that otherwise aren't considered, or maybe even known. Sometimes that is what it takes. I often don't think the radical 'solutions' these groups come up with are practical or appropriate... but the change that does result may very well not come about without the radical fringe element making a lot of noise about the issue at hand.

Even the expert trainers are baffled by this injury. The drf.com (Daily Racing Form) is the best place for info. Many have never seen anything like this. A horse break down after the wire like this. It is very strange. But the stats are this, less than 1 out of every thousand that run get injured or have to be put down. I am a frequent horse player and Ill tell you, it only seems to happen lately on these big races. Which is a black eye for the sport. But to think its like dog fighting or cock fighting is just plain ridiculous. It is the "sport of kings".

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In regards to PETA, I have heard them make some good points on many aspects of this sport and others. But since they are such a radical fringe in my opinion, most of their arguements end up falling onto deaf ears. They can bring up issues about the training in this sport, and the rules that allow for such young horses to race. But when some of their members go out and throw red paint on people wearing fur, or stand outside a McDonalds shouting "meat is murder" as moms and kids are arriving to have a 'Happy Meal'... they lose all credibilty. I don't know if you said you are a member of that group or not. But they would need to fix their organization before they stand much of a chance of convincing change in other areas of our culture. IMO.

Agreed. Bringing attention to some general issues is one thing, but their accusations in this case are ridiculous and ignorant. They're calling for the jockey's suspension, saying he knew there was something wrong with the horse during the race, and didn't pull her up. That's just irresponsible speculation and groundless accusation. He'd be putting himself in danger if he thought the horse could go down in traffic, and didn't stop. So that's just nuts...

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This may be the last year for the whip. They think the PETA people will pressue the banning of the whip and most experts agree that nobody is really going to put up a big fight, maybe a few jockeys. Race day medication may be banned and thier may be an min. age to race.

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As I understand it, horses have evolved for running and are competitive against each other naturally - especially at a young age. Do they really need jockeys to steer or whip them in order to run a race? Jockeys are relatively light, but must put pressure and imbalance on the horses legs. If greyhounds can race uncumbered, why not horses?

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As I understand it, horses have evolved for running and are competitive against each other naturally - especially at a young age. Do they really need jockeys to steer or whip them in order to run a race? Jockeys are relatively light, but must put pressure and imbalance on the horses legs. If greyhounds can race uncumbered, why not horses?

You are kidding right? Well lets bet on turtles, and frogs and mice. How are you going to stop the horses, with tranquilizer rifles?? Did you ever see a greyhound race? The dogs and slam into each other and all that matters is which one crosses the finish line first. No disqualifications for interference like in horse racing. It is not doable if you are serious about the horses.

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Wow, what a fab idea. Screw horse racing! Lets line up with our fancy hats and bet on the great Rat race!

Really though, I used to love watching the races, but lately I've become pissed off the way humans treat some animals. IMHO those greyhound races should be banned. The poor guys have to be adopted out or killed after they lose their $$ value.

I'm getting incredibly "soft" in my old age.

:(

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