Gainsbarre Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 One interesting point made by Dawkins is that we often use God to fill in the gaps in science. But science also puts things down to randomness when there appears to be an absence of logic. But randomness could be an undiscovered logic. Absurd isn't absurd, it is just a logic that doesn't equate with our own. As far as I know there are two important questions not answered by science. The first what drives the mechanics of the atoms that create the structure of our universe. Why do things exist. The second. We have conciousness, we are able to think. So what does that really mean? Well exactly, there are questions over the impetus over the organisational need of materials in the universe, their need to form relationships. But even if you believe in God, it creates connumdrums, because you then have questions like who created God? And What was around before God? Even then you begin to realise that answers about God, our existence, the Universe, will never be answered in a logic understood by man. That's why the Universe rests on a bed of absurdity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonham Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Maybe some men (or women ) already understand this Earth, but will not tell us, hence their titles... the Illuminatis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Miss Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Belief in God really does dumbfound me. Truly. I'll never be able to grasp why free-thinking, rational and intelligent being would seriously conceive that books like the Bible etc hold any truth in them. I can accept a belief in the proverbial 'something out there' but an actual theistic god? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainsbarre Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Belief in God really does dumbfound me. Truly. I'll never be able to grasp why free-thinking, rational and intelligent being would seriously conceive that books like the Bible etc hold any truth in them. I can accept a belief in the proverbial 'something out there' but an actual theistic god? Seriously? But we've had it ingrained in us and our collective cultures for hundreds, even thousands of years, it's become in some ways an iron-clad cultural tradition, like clothes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepyep Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Hi all, LONDON — Albert Einstein: arch rationalist or scientist with a spiritual core? A letter being auctioned in London this week adds more fuel to the long-simmering debate about the Nobel prize-winning physicist's religious views. In the note, written the year before his death, Einstein dismissed the idea of God as the product of human weakness and the Bible as "pretty childish." The letter, handwritten in German, is being sold by Bloomsbury Auctions on Thursday and is expected to fetch between $12,000 and $16,000. Einstein, who helped unravel the mysteries of the universe with his theory of relativity, expressed complex and arguably contradictory views on faith, perceiving a universe suffused with spirituality while rejecting organized religion. The letter up for sale, written to philosopher Eric Gutkind in January 1954, suggests his views on religion did not mellow with age. RelatedStories Astronomers Find Ticking Cosmic Time Bomb Astronomers Solve Mystery of Black Hole Jets Possible New Element Could Rewrite Textbooks In it, Einstein said that "the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish." "For me," he added, "the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions." Addressing the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people, Einstein wrote that "the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them." Bloomsbury spokesman Richard Caton said the auction house was "100 percent certain" of the letter's authenticity. It is being offered at auction for the first time, by a private vendor. John Brooke, emeritus professor of science and religion at Oxford University, said the letter lends weight to the notion that "Einstein was not a conventional theist" — although he was not an atheist, either. "Like many great scientists of the past, he is rather quirky about religion, and not always consistent from one period to another," Brooke said. Born to a Jewish family in Germany in 1879, Einstein said he went through a devout phase as a child before beginning to question conventional religion at the age of 12. In later life, he expressed a sense of wonder at the universe and its mysteries — what he called a "cosmic religious feeling" — and famously said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." But, he also said: "I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws." Brooke said Einstein believed that "there is some kind of intelligence working its way through nature. But it is certainly not a conventional Christian or Judaic religious view." Einstein's most famous legacy is the special theory of relativity, which makes the point that a large amount of energy could be released from a tiny amount of matter, as expressed in the equation E=MC2 (energy equals mass times the speed of light squared). The theory changed the face of physics, allowing scientists to make predictions about space and paving the way for nuclear power and the atomic bomb. Einstein's musings on science, war, peace and God helped make him world famous, and his scientific legacy prompted Time magazine to name him its Person of the 20th Century. -associated press- KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pb Derigable Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Belief in God really does dumbfound me. Truly. I'll never be able to grasp why free-thinking, rational and intelligent being would seriously conceive that books like the Bible etc hold any truth in them. I can accept a belief in the proverbial 'something out there' but an actual theistic god? Seriously? I think some people fool themselves into believing it because it represents a very good thing. I'm not saying they are brainwashed, but they like the idea of someone else is out their looking over them. My GF goes to church every sunday with her mother, and she is no way a true believer, but her church does alot of good things and they teach good morals over belief. For every peice of shit that goes to church, they atleast keep one person from becoming a peice of shit. My problems is the hypocritical people out there who claim to love god, but do drugs, steal and cheat on their partners, and they claim they are better then me because of it. I never every believed in god, because i see how church people act, but i wouldn't want to live in a world without the belief in god in most people, becuase even though almost every major war started on religious grounds, it keeps people together and help them when the Govt. can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetredwine Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Hi! The trouble is, we're only humans, and we can only understand things from a poor little human point of view... There could actually be any number of massive signs out there, glaringly obvious, but we cannot see them/understand them ... Hi there! Earthquake forum post (see post #54) ... and ... This month, the first ever Thomas Merton Pilgrimage to Italy ... in ROME! Thomas Merton in Rome, Italy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinky Posted May 13, 2008 Author Share Posted May 13, 2008 Belief in God really does dumbfound me. Truly. I'll never be able to grasp why free-thinking, rational and intelligent being would seriously conceive that books like the Bible etc hold any truth in them. I can accept a belief in the proverbial 'something out there' but an actual theistic god? Seriously? If YOU had rational thought or bothered to watch the videos everything is rational about God even if the big bang theory is true (which is dissproved in the vids) what caused nothing can come from nothing, the first layers of Earth were not formed over time while the magma slowly cooled it was created INSTATLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evermore Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I think some people fool themselves into believing it because it represents a very good thing. I'm not saying they are brainwashed, but they like the idea of someone else is out their looking over them. My GF goes to church every sunday with her mother, and she is no way a true believer, but her church does alot of good things and they teach good morals over belief. For every peice of shit that goes to church, they atleast keep one person from becoming a peice of shit. My problems is the hypocritical people out there who claim to love god, but do drugs, steal and cheat on their partners, and they claim they are better then me because of it. I never every believed in god, because i see how church people act, but i wouldn't want to live in a world without the belief in god in most people, becuase even though almost every major war started on religious grounds, it keeps people together and help them when the Govt. can't In many ways I agree. Even in the Catholic church I see a lot of things that are good and know a lot of people that are truly good. people who are pious in the best sense of the word. But the atheist response to this argument is why cant we have a similar organization that provides moral, social and charitable benefits without the precondition of having to worship god in a particular manner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew! Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 If YOU had rational thought or bothered to watch the videos everything is rational about God even if the big bang theory is true (which is dissproved in the vids) what caused nothing can come from nothing, the first layers of Earth were not formed over time while the magma slowly cooled it was created INSTATLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 If YOU had rational thought or bothered to watch the videos everything is rational about God even if the big bang theory is true (which is dissproved in the vids) what caused nothing can come from nothing, the first layers of Earth were not formed over time while the magma slowly cooled it was created INSTATLY. Which is why the world is flat! Hey, my kid is left handed- is she satanic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I love your sig. Well, at least we can all breathe easy now that it's been proven. Now we just have to pick the right religion. Suggestions? let's hope that the buddists or hindus are right, then at least I'll get a few extra chanses. let's not hope that the mormons or something like that are right, then most of us are fucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Miss Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 If YOU had rational thought or bothered to watch the videos everything is rational about God even if the big bang theory is true (which is dissproved in the vids) what caused nothing can come from nothing, the first layers of Earth were not formed over time while the magma slowly cooled it was created INSTATLY. Right. See, there you go. You have (supposedly) proved the existence of something that (doesn't necessarily exist now) once sparked the big bang, something that caused the universe to come into existence. What about the monotheistic god's characteristics? Does this prove omnipotence? Benevolence? Omnicience etc? A moral preferance? No. The above is stories - stories to scare people and to use a tool for social control. People believe these stories because they're frightened (understandably) of death, of their life meaning nothing, of suffering in real life and having nothing to look forward to, nothing better. It's all a comfort derived from fear of death and the unknown. All understandable, and cultrally ingrained. Doesn't make it right, or true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepyep Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Hi all, A few possiblities: 1) your going to die,sometime,some way 2)You believe,but it's all gone 3)You believe,or did and some asks you a few questions,no go Pedro 4) you think you might come back 5) you don't 6) you did come back,now what??? 7)you fill in the blank And please remember this,if you are not just another animal,why do you have free-will,and others animals do not? KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlaxle 56 Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 ^^^ That is another very good point, Little Miss. Assuming you can "prove" the existence of "God". How can you now go about proving that it is the Christian God? Why not the Muslim God? Or one of the many Ancient Egyptian or Norse Gods? Maybe you have proved the existence of the Hindu deity? Is there one of these Gods? More than one? At best you've proved we can't explain the origins of the earth or universe, and a possible explanation is some sort of designer. This is why *disproving* scientific theories doesn't prove anything else, it merely...disproves those theories...assuming that you've even disproved them in the first place. I don't even care about proving or disproving scientific theories on the origin of the universe in this debate. Prove to me that *your*, meaning the Christian God of the Christian bible exists, with evidence of it, and this evidence can not simply be bashing science or other theories/religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misty Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 has anyone read Many Lives, Many Masters? i believe we are all here to love and LEARN...learn to live a good life based in love for each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Miss Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 ^ Quaint, unrealistic. Sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pb Derigable Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 In many ways I agree. Even in the Catholic church I see a lot of things that are good and know a lot of people that are truly good. people who are pious in the best sense of the word. But the atheist response to this argument is why cant we have a similar organization that provides moral, social and charitable benefits without the precondition of having to worship god in a particular manner? There is, it's called the United States of America, some believe it more than others. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misty Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 did you mean the book is quaint and unrealistic, or my comments, or both? doesn't matter, i don't really care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pentangleafternoon Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 i once took a philosophy course on this subject, and i remember reading a paper by a guy named flannagan (i think that was the name) who had an extremely convincing argument as to why god didn't exist. if somebody knows what i'm taking about please be kind to share your memory as well. however this paper went (and it was written well), i still thought the capacity to reason such a complicated question was proof god exists anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evermore Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 There is, it's called the United States of America, some believe it more than others. I Really PB? I wouldn't have expected this answer from you. Does this mean you believe in state sponsored charity and morality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmorek Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Not only is there a god, there are actually four of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 If there's intelligent design (and there is...) ---- The there's an intelligent designer ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainsbarre Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 But the atheist response to this argument is why cant we have a similar organization that provides moral, social and charitable benefits without the precondition of having to worship god in a particular manner? That's what Confucianism was... Except Confucianism lost out to Buddhism, because Buddhism gave you option on the after-life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misty Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 That's what Confucianism was... Except Confucianism lost out to Buddhism, because Buddhism gave you option on the after-life gainsbarre - great sig, by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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