Sugar Mama (unused track) WHY?

[GetTheLedOut]

Stephen Davis would be proud.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd bring him up. You're about as reliable as he is.

[swandown]

It doesn't surprise me that you'd bring him up. You're about as reliable as he is.

Care to back that up with some evidence? For every inaccurate post of mine that you can find, I'll find 2 of yours.

Ready.....go!

[GetTheLedOut]

Care to back that up with some evidence? For every inaccurate post of mine that you can find, I'll find 2 of yours.

Ready.....go!

I made one claim, and I provided the evidence. If you don't believe me go check out the rough guide to Led Zeppelin by Nigel Williamson. One claim, no inaccuracies.

[Medhb]

Nothin' like the smell of a good dog fight first thing in the morning....

[swandown]

I made one claim, and I provided the evidence. If you don't believe me go check out the rough guide to Led Zeppelin by Nigel Williamson. One claim, no inaccuracies.

Perhaps you have trouble with reading comprehension, or maybe you're just not familiar with the concept of an "inaccurate post". Let me summarize:

1. you questioned my reliability.

2. I asked you to back that up with evidence.

3. you failed.

I happen to take pride in my veracity and my reliability, especially when it comes to the world of Led Zeppelin. And I don't take it lightly when someone questions it. So I'm asking you to either back up your accusation with some proof, or you can apologize.

[GetTheLedOut]

Perhaps you have trouble with reading comprehension, or maybe you're just not familiar with the concept of an "inaccurate post". Let me summarize:

1. you questioned my reliability.

2. I asked you to back that up with evidence.

3. you failed.

I did, and you have failed to provide any backup for your claim other than repeating yourself. On any objective level, you have failed.

I happen to take pride in my veracity and my reliability, especially when it comes to the world of Led Zeppelin. And I don't take it lightly when someone questions it. So I'm asking you to either back up your accusation with some proof, or you can apologize.

What you take pride in is your inflated ego. You are no reliable source, especially if you cannot find anything else to corroborate your claim. Doesn't matter how upset you get when I question your integrity, it doesn't make you right. The fact is you aren't, and I've already shown you the proof. I'll do it again in case you had trouble the first few times:

The Rough Guide to Led Zeppelin

You probably know a thing or two about Led Zeppelin, just about everyone here does. However, you need to back up your claims. All you've done is submit some conjecture about the nature of the song, but no real substance lies in conjecture. If you have any real evidence, that's fine, show it. Don't just repeat your little sob story about being offended that anyone would question you. You have done nothing yet.

[swandown]

I've already shown you the proof. I'll do it again in case you had trouble the first few times

So.....I challenge you to find a single inaccurate statement from me, and the best you can come up with is me disagreeing with a misinformed journalist? That's it? That's almost not worth responding to, but your other thread looks too darn inviting, so off I go......

[GetTheLedOut]

So.....I challenge you to find a single inaccurate statement from me, and the best you can come up with is me disagreeing with a misinformed journalist? That's it? That's almost not worth responding to, but your other thread looks too darn inviting, so off I go......

So you're not even going to pretend you have evidence... how crude.

[swandown]

So you're not even going to pretend you have evidence... how crude.

Obviously, no amount of evidence will convince you that Led Zeppelin's song wasn't based on the Sonny Boy Williamson (I) song (despite overwhelming lyrical and musical evidence to the contrary). Unless the all-knowing Nigel Williamson says it, you refuse to believe it.

So please, just go back to reading your "Beginner's Guide To [insert music artist here]" books and enjoy living in your bubble.

[beatbo]

Blues Lyrics - Sonny Boy Williamson I

Sugar Mama Blues

by

Sonny Boy Williamson I (John Lee)

recording of 1937-1938

from

The Bluebird Recordings 1937-1938 (RCA 66723)

Sugar mama, sugar mama, sugar mama please come back to me

Sugar mama, sugar mama, sugar mama please come back to me

Bring me my granulated sugar

, sugar mama, and try to ease my misery

You've got this new grade of sugar, sugar mama, an you done made me love it too

You've got this new grade of sugar, sugar mama, an you done made me love it too

You've got this granulated sugar, sugar mama, ain't nobody else got, but you

They been braggin' 'bout your sugar, sugar mama, been braggin' all over town

They been braggin' 'bout your sugar, sugar mama, braggin' all over town

Now, the bootleggers

want you to sell 'em enough to make whiskey,

but you won't sell 'em about four or five pounds

I like my coffee sweet in the mornin', you know, an I'm crazy 'bout my tea at night

I like my coffee sweet in the mornin', you know, an I'm crazy 'bout my tea at night

Don't get my sugar three times a day, oh, Lord, then I don't feel right

Led Zeppelin - Sugar Mama Lyrics

Sugar mama, sugar mama, sugar mama,

Where you been?

Sugar mama, sugar mama, sugar mama,

Where you been?

Sugar mama!

Say you love me sugar mama

Ill never let you go

Sugar mama, sugar mama, sugar mama,

Love you babe

Sugar mama, sugar mama, sugar mama,

Drive me insane

Sugar mama gonna love you all I can

Say you love me sugar mama

Ill never let you go

Say you love me sugar mama

Ill never let you go

Say you love me sugar mama

Ill never let you go

uhhhh, sorry ledout, love your posts but i gotta go with scott on this one...

[GetTheLedOut]

Obviously, no amount of evidence will convince you that Led Zeppelin's song wasn't based on the Sonny Boy Williamson (I) song (despite overwhelming lyrical and musical evidence to the contrary). Unless the all-knowing Nigel Williamson says it, you refuse to believe it.

So please, just go back to reading your "Beginner's Guide To [insert music artist here]" books and enjoy living in your bubble.

You've brought that point up before, and given the context of Zeppelin's catalog I don't think that's strong evidence. Unless you're going to argue that "Travelling Riverside Blues" is not a cover of the Robert Johnson song, you have to acknowledge that Zeppelin would change the lyrics to songs they cover and change the music dramatically, yet it still is technically a cover.

Robert Johnson's version:

If your man get personal, want you to have your fun

If your man get personal, want you to have your fun

Just come on back to Friars Point, mama, and barrelhouse all night long

I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee

I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee

But my Friars Point rider, now, hops all over me

I ain't gon' to state no color, but her front teeth crowned with gold

I ain't gon' to state no color, but her front teeth is crowned with gold

She got a mortgage on my body, now, and a lien on my soul

Lord, I'm goin' to Rosedale, gon' take my rider by my side

Lord, I'm goin' to Rosedale, gon' take my rider by my side

We can still barrelhouse baby, on the riverside

Now you can squeeze my lemon 'til the juice run down my...

(Spoken) 'til the juice rune down my leg, baby, you know what I'm talkin' about

You can squeeze my lemon 'til the juice run down my leg

(Spoken) That's what I'm talkin' 'bout, now

But I'm goin' back to Friars Point, if I be rockin'to my head

Led Zeppelin's version:

Asked sweet mama, let me be her kid

She said, you might get hurt if you dont keep it hid

Well I know my baby, if I see her in the dark

I said I know my rider, if I see her in the dark

Now, I goin to rosedale, take my rider by my side

Still barrelhouse, if its on the riverside, yeah

I know my baby, lord, I said, is really sloppy drunk

I know my mama, lord, a brownskin, but she aint no plum

See my baby, tell her, tell her hurry home

Had no lovin, since my baby been gone

See my baby, tell hurry on home

I aint had, lord, my right mind, since my riders been gone

Hey, she promises, shes my rider

I wanna tell you, shes my rider

I know youre mine, shes my rider

She aint but sixteen, but shes my rider

Im goin to rosedale, take my rider by side

Anybody argue with me man, Ill keep them satisfied

Well, see my baby, tell her, tell her the shape Im in

Aint had no lovin, lord, since you know when

Spoken: why dont you come into my kitchen

Shes a kindhearted lady. she studies evil all the time

Shes a kindhearted woman. she studies evil all the time

Squeeze my lemon til the juice runs down my leg

Squeeze it so hard, Ill fall right out of bed

Squeeze my lemon, til the juice runs down my leg

Spoken: I wonder if you know what Im talkin about

Oh, but the way that you squeeze it girl

I swear Im gonna fall right out of bed

Shes a good rider

Shes my kindhearted lady

Im gonna take my rider by my side

I said her front teeth are lined with gold

Shes gotta mortgage on my body, got a lien on my soul

Shes my brownskin sugar plum...

The Zeppelin version also has different music. However, it is officially credited as Johnson/Page/Plant.

So your argument that the music and lyrics being different mean that in no way is it a cover doesn't stand. Had it been released its credit would likely read Williamson/Page/Plant (possibly including Jones and/or Bonham).

[beatbo]

You've brought that point up before, and given the context of Zeppelin's catalog I don't think that's strong evidence. Unless you're going to argue that "Travelling Riverside Blues" is not a cover of the Robert Johnson song, you have to acknowledge that Zeppelin would change the lyrics to songs they cover and change the music dramatically, yet it still is technically a cover.

Robert Johnson's version:

If your man get personal, want you to have your fun

If your man get personal, want you to have your fun

Just come on back to Friars Point, mama, and barrelhouse all night long

I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee

I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee

But my Friars Point rider, now, hops all over me

I ain't gon' to state no color, but her front teeth crowned with gold

I ain't gon' to state no color, but her front teeth is crowned with gold

She got a mortgage on my body, now, and a lien on my soul

Lord, I'm goin' to Rosedale, gon' take my rider by my side

Lord, I'm goin' to Rosedale, gon' take my rider by my side

We can still barrelhouse baby, on the riverside

Now you can squeeze my lemon 'til the juice run down my...

(Spoken) 'til the juice rune down my leg, baby, you know what I'm talkin' about

You can squeeze my lemon 'til the juice run down my leg

(Spoken) That's what I'm talkin' 'bout, now

But I'm goin' back to Friars Point, if I be rockin'to my head

Led Zeppelin's version:

Asked sweet mama, let me be her kid

She said, you might get hurt if you dont keep it hid

Well I know my baby, if I see her in the dark

I said I know my rider, if I see her in the dark

Now, I goin to rosedale, take my rider by my side

Still barrelhouse, if its on the riverside, yeah

I know my baby, lord, I said, is really sloppy drunk

I know my mama, lord, a brownskin, but she aint no plum

See my baby, tell her, tell her hurry home

Had no lovin, since my baby been gone

See my baby, tell hurry on home

I aint had, lord, my right mind, since my riders been gone

Hey, she promises, shes my rider

I wanna tell you, shes my rider

I know youre mine, shes my rider

She aint but sixteen, but shes my rider

Im goin to rosedale, take my rider by side

Anybody argue with me man, Ill keep them satisfied

Well, see my baby, tell her, tell her the shape Im in

Aint had no lovin, lord, since you know when

Spoken: why dont you come into my kitchen

Shes a kindhearted lady. she studies evil all the time

Shes a kindhearted woman. she studies evil all the time

Squeeze my lemon til the juice runs down my leg

Squeeze it so hard, Ill fall right out of bed

Squeeze my lemon, til the juice runs down my leg

Spoken: I wonder if you know what Im talkin about

Oh, but the way that you squeeze it girl

I swear Im gonna fall right out of bed

Shes a good rider

Shes my kindhearted lady

Im gonna take my rider by my side

I said her front teeth are lined with gold

Shes gotta mortgage on my body, got a lien on my soul

Shes my brownskin sugar plum...

The Zeppelin version also has different music. However, it is officially credited as Johnson/Page/Plant.

So your argument that the music and lyrics being different mean that in no way is it a cover doesn't stand. Had it been released its credit would likely read Williamson/Page/Plant (possibly including Jones and/or Bonham).

a credible point.

did led zep credit johnson because their version included the "lemon squeezing" (and they had neglected to credit that in the lemon song)? this is also a major difference (an entire verse)compared to both "sugar mama's" which share only those two words.

also, another question: is the context of zeppelin's catalog different in 1977 compared to 1990? although travelling riverside was recorded way earlier, it wasn't released until the box set, when credits had already been changed on several previously released zep songs.

btw, other sugar mama's:

tampa red

rory gallagher

taj mahal

b.b. king

tampa red's is the most notable....recorded 5-6 years before sonny boy 1.

[GetTheLedOut]

a credible point.

did led zep credit johnson because their version included the "lemon squeezing" (and they had neglected to credit that in the lemon song)? this is also a major difference (an entire verse)compared to both "sugar mama's" which share only those two words.

also, another question: is the context of zeppelin's catalog different in 1977 compared to 1990? although travelling riverside was recorded way earlier, it wasn't released until the box set, when credits had already been changed on several previously released zep songs.

btw, other sugar mama's:

tampa red

rory gallagher

taj mahal

b.b. king

tampa red's is the most notable....recorded 5-6 years before sonny boy 1.

The crediting of Robert Johnson probably had more to do with the origin of the song rather than the final product, as their Travelling Riverside Blues is far different than the original. The same goes for many of their other songs including their version of Sugar Mama.

[swandown]

You've brought that point up before, and given the context of Zeppelin's catalog I don't think that's strong evidence. Unless you're going to argue that "Travelling Riverside Blues" is not a cover of the Robert Johnson song

Well, it's not.

It's co-credited to Robert Johnson because the majority of the lyrics are taken from four of Johnson's songs, not because it is a 'cover' of "Travelin' Riverside Blues". That's part of the reason why the song was originally titled "Travelin' Riverside Blues '69" -- to show that it was not a cover of the original song, but more of a tribute.

The comparison to "Sugar Mama" fails to meet the same standard. The majority of the lyrics in Zep's "Sugar Mama" are not taken from Sonny Boy Williamson's song. In fact, the only lyrical similarity is the title. That's part of the reason why I'm so skeptical that Zep "covered" Williamson's song, when they could have just as well been covering the Howlin' Wolf or P.J. Proby songs of the same name.

So your argument that the music and lyrics being different mean that in no way is it a cover doesn't stand. Had it been released its credit would likely read Williamson/Page/Plant (possibly including Jones and/or Bonham).

Except that Williamson didn't even write the song. Go check out a version recorded by Tampa Red in 1934 -- 3 years before Williamson recorded his version. It's obvious that Williamson copied his song from Tampa Red. That's another reason to doubt what's written in the "Rough Guide To Led Zeppelin" -- if the author failed to do his research to determine the song's origins, then his credibility takes a hit.

[GetTheLedOut]

Well, it's not.

It's co-credited to Robert Johnson because the majority of the lyrics are taken from four of Johnson's songs, not because it is a 'cover' of "Travelin' Riverside Blues". That's part of the reason why the song was originally titled "Travelin' Riverside Blues '69" -- to show that it was not a cover of the original song, but more of a tribute.

The comparison to "Sugar Mama" fails to meet the same standard. The majority of the lyrics in Zep's "Sugar Mama" are not taken from Sonny Boy Williamson's song. In fact, the only lyrical similarity is the title. That's part of the reason why I'm so skeptical that Zep "covered" Williamson's song, when they could have just as well been covering the Howlin' Wolf or P.J. Proby songs of the same name.

You're ignoring the fact that the song, while different, is clearly inspired by Robert Johnson's own Travelling Riverside Blues. The same goes for Sugar Mama. The root of the song is the Sonny Boy Williamson song.

Except that Williamson didn't even write the song. Go check out a version recorded by Tampa Red in 1934 -- 3 years before Williamson recorded his version. It's obvious that Williamson copied his song from Tampa Red. That's another reason to doubt what's written in the "Rough Guide To Led Zeppelin" -- if the author failed to do his research to determine the song's origins, then his credibility takes a hit.

Nigel Williamson recognized that the Zeppelin song was rooted in the Sonny Boy Williamson song. And it's pretty naive to think that even the earliest recorded version is the original. Blues by its very nature is heavily copied and stolen. However, it's most likely true that Zeppelin was listening to Sonny Boy's version, as Plant and Page were more familiar with his work.

And if you want to throw the Rough Guides and Nigel Williamson to the dogs, it's worth noting that Nigel also wrote a Rough Guide to the Blues in which Robert Plant provided the foreword commenting on Nigel's thorough knowledge of the subject. If Robert Plant thinks Nigel knows the blues, the man knows the blues.

[eternal light]

One thing is for certain, Sonny Boy Williamson did not sing about Jolly Ranchers or waffle cones, so at least Beyonce's version of Sugar Mama is original.

[swandown]

You're ignoring the fact that the song, while different, is clearly inspired by Robert Johnson's own Travelling Riverside Blues.

So? "In The Evening" was clearly inspired by Marty Wilde, but that doesn't mean Marty Wilde gets a writing credit for it. It's a good thing that the ASCAP, BMI and the Supreme Court don't award songwriting credits based on "inspiration" (as GetTheLedOut seems to believe) or Marilyn Monroe and Patti Boyd would have made billions.

The root of the song is the Sonny Boy Williamson song.

And yet your only "evidence" is the word of a single journalist, without offering any sort of corroboration whatsoever, despite the fact that not a single lyric (aside from the title) is duplicated from Williamson's version.

% of lyrics in Led Zeppelin's "Traveling Riverside Blues" that are taken from Robert Johnson lyrics: 50%

% of lyrics in Led Zeppelin's "Sugar Mama" (besides the title) that are taken from Sonny Boy Williamson's song: 0%

And it's pretty naive to think that even the earliest recorded version is the original.

So now you contradict yourself. First you say it was written by Sonny Boy Williamson. Then -- after it's revealed that Williamson didn't write it -- you suddenly change your tune.

However, it's most likely true that Zeppelin was listening to Sonny Boy's version, as Plant and Page were more familiar with his work.

What's your source for this? Or are you just making it up as you go along?

And if you want to throw the Rough Guides and Nigel Williamson to the dogs, it's worth noting that Nigel also wrote a Rough Guide to the Blues

It's also worth noting that Nigel wrote "The Rough Guide Book of Playlists" ("For late-comers to the iPod revolution or owners who simply want to learn how to get more from their music player" -- oooooh, maybe Robert could write a foreword for that one too!) along with the scintillating page-turner "The Rough Guide To Alternative Country Music".

in which Robert Plant provided the foreword commenting on Nigel's thorough knowledge of the subject. If Robert Plant thinks Nigel knows the blues, the man knows the blues.

"Nigel Williamson has transported these angel wraiths into the 21st century – breathing new life into a glorious kaleidoscope of Afro-American music.”

There. That's the extent of Plant's comments on Williamson. Nowhere does Plant say that he thinks Nigel "knows the blues" or that he thinks Williamson has "thorough knowledge of the subject". Nice try, though.

Bottom line:

If you write the lyrics, you get a writing credit.

If you write the music, you get a writing credit.

Not a single bit of Sonny Boy Williamson's lyrics or music were used in Led Zeppelin's "Sugar Mama".

[GetTheLedOut]

So? "In The Evening" was clearly inspired by Marty Wilde, but that doesn't mean Marty Wilde gets a writing credit for it. It's a good thing that the ASCAP, BMI and the Supreme Court don't award songwriting credits based on "inspiration" (as GetTheLedOut seems to believe) or Marilyn Monroe and Patti Boyd would have made billions.

That's not the same and you know it.

And yet your only "evidence" is the word of a single journalist, without offering any sort of corroboration whatsoever, despite the fact that not a single lyric (aside from the title) is duplicated from Williamson's version.

A journalist that Plant, the singer of the song in question, approves of.

% of lyrics in Led Zeppelin's "Traveling Riverside Blues" that are taken from Robert Johnson lyrics: 50%

% of lyrics in Led Zeppelin's "Sugar Mama" (besides the title) that are taken from Sonny Boy Williamson's song: 0%

I'd say they're zero in both cases. The lyrics you attribute to Johnson are also found in the work of other blues singers like Howlin' Wolf, Bukka White, and Blind Willie Johnson (just to name a few). You're assuming that Johnson is the originator there, which we have no way of knowing.

So now you contradict yourself. First you say it was written by Sonny Boy Williamson. Then -- after it's revealed that Williamson didn't write it -- you suddenly change your tune.

I said I believe it to be a cover of a Sonny Boy Williamson song due to the source I provided. What sources have you provided?

What's your source for this? Or are you just making it up as you go along?

I have never heard anyone in the Zep camp mention Tampa Red. Ever. Thus I doubt he influenced them.

It's also worth noting that Nigel wrote "The Rough Guide Book of Playlists" ("For late-comers to the iPod revolution or owners who simply want to learn how to get more from their music player" -- oooooh, maybe Robert could write a foreword for that one too!) along with the scintillating page-turner "The Rough Guide To Alternative Country Music".

So you think it's a bad thing that he has been trusted with writing many different books on music?

"Nigel Williamson has transported these angel wraiths into the 21st century – breathing new life into a glorious kaleidoscope of Afro-American music.”

There. That's the extent of Plant's comments on Williamson. Nowhere does Plant say that he thinks Nigel "knows the blues" or that he thinks Williamson has "thorough knowledge of the subject". Nice try, though.

If you claim "breathing new life into a glorious kaleidoscope of Afro-American music" isn't a compliment on one's knowledge of blues, then you're either dense or lying to yourself.

Bottom line:

If you write the lyrics, you get a writing credit.

If you write the music, you get a writing credit.

Not a single bit of Sonny Boy Williamson's lyrics or music were used in Led Zeppelin's "Sugar Mama".

Look, if you want to be a Zeppelin apologist go ahead. You've been arguing semantics (and still have yet to provide anything to corroborate your story other than lyrical difference which doesn't prove your argument) simply to show what? That Zeppelin didn't copy? Well they did, and not just a few times. They weren't the only ones who did it either, but Zeppelin fans are just so damn hardheaded when it comes to this issue. Frankly I think there's no reason to deny what they did because the result was brilliant music.

[swandown]

I'm going to go a little easier on you since you made such a colossal fool of yourself over the "Crossroads" claim. So I'll make this relatively short and be done with it:

I'd say they're zero in both cases. The lyrics you attribute to Johnson are also found in the work of other blues singers like Howlin' Wolf, Bukka White, and Blind Willie Johnson (just to name a few).

Maybe Robert Johnson didn't originate every one of his lyrics, but at least you can find the exact same lyrics in both Robert Johnson and Led Zeppelin's songs. The same cannot be said for Sonny Boy Williamson's "Sugar Mama".

I have never heard anyone in the Zep camp mention Tampa Red. Ever. Thus I doubt he influenced them.

Have you heard anyone in the Zep camp mention Sonny Boy Williamson OR his song "Sugar Mama", ever? I haven't.

You've been arguing semantics (and still have yet to provide anything to corroborate your story other than lyrical difference which doesn't prove your argument)

simply to show what? That Zeppelin didn't copy?

No -- to show that you're ill-informed and that you don't know what you're talking about. You were wrong about "Crossroads" and you're wrong about "Sugar Mama".

[beatbo]

hey, is it cool to come back in here?

(birds chirp)

okay, maybe not......

[Medhb]

hey, is it cool to come back in here?

(birds chirp)

okay, maybe not......

Poking head in real quick...

Darting back out even quicker!

[GetTheLedOut]

I'm going to go a little easier on you since you made such a colossal fool of yourself over the "Crossroads" claim. So I'll make this relatively short and be done with it:

I don't see how calling a recording featuring Plant vocals a Zeppelin track is anything remotely close to "colossal," but I understand how you are impeded by your limited vocabulary and lack of imagination.

Maybe Robert Johnson didn't originate every one of his lyrics, but at least you can find the exact same lyrics in both Robert Johnson and Led Zeppelin's songs. The same cannot be said for Sonny Boy Williamson's "Sugar Mama".

And yet Led Zeppelin's "Travelling Riverside Blues" is widely considered a cover of Robert Johnson's "Travelling Riverside Blues" despite not having the same lyrics or music. If you don't want to view Sugar Mama as a cover then that's fine, but don't assume all are going to agree with you.

Have you heard anyone in the Zep camp mention Sonny Boy Williamson OR his song "Sugar Mama", ever? I haven't.

I've picked up the SBW connection before. I've never even heard Red Tampa in anything Zeppelin related.

Limited imagination again.

No -- to show that you're ill-informed and that you don't know what you're talking about. You were wrong about "Crossroads" and you're wrong about "Sugar Mama".

If that were true then you wouldn't have approached this in the manner you have. I made a statement that it was a cover. You disagreed. I listed my source. You disagreed. I typed out my source. You disagreed.

Note, no where in there do you even attempt to show that you have any reason to make the statement you have. Right or wrong, you don't know how to argue effectively. All you know how to do is try to start personal fights, not make arguments. But please, don't let reason stop you from continuing to be a first class dick.

[Evster2012]

Not directed at anyone in particular...

The wheel is turning and you cant slow down,

You cant let go and you cant hold on,

You cant go back and you cant stand still,

If the thunder dont get you then the lightning will.

Wont you try just a little bit harder,

Couldnt you try just a little bit more?

Wont you try just a little bit harder,

Couldnt you try just a little bit more?

Round, round robin run round, got to get back to where you belong,

Little bit harder, just a little bit more,

A little bit further than you gone before.

The wheel is turning and you cant slow down,

You cant let go and you cant hold on,

You cant go back and you cant stand still,

If the thunder dont get you then the lightning will.

Small wheel turn by the fire and rod,

Big wheel turn by the grace of god,

Every time that wheel turn round,

Bound to cover just a little more ground.

The wheel is turning and you cant slow down,

You cant let go and you cant hold on,

You cant go back and you cant stand still,

If the thunder dont get you then the lightning will.

Wont you try just a little bit harder,

Couldnt you try just a little bit more?

Wont you try just a little bit harder,

Couldnt you try just a little bit more?

Here endeth my totally unrelated musical interlude. My apologies to anyone annoyed by my intrusion. It's just that this song represents a beacon in a time of futility. Call me cosmic. Call me stupid (the more likely), but it's nitpicking really. Two people with two definitions of what constitutes a cover. I respect both of you GTLO and Swandown. You're both archivists, and true Zeppelin fans. So agree to disagree. I hate seeing the likes of you fight. It bums me out when I know it's two people who've both devoted so much time to their love of the band.

Or bash away! No one declared me the referee!

*A disclaimer* Beer (many beers) were involved in the composition of this post. Please feel free to ignore it utterly, and please don't turn me into anything unnatural. I know some of you Page fans have skills!

Cheers!

[swandown]

I don't see how calling a recording featuring Plant vocals a Zeppelin track is anything remotely close to "colossal"

Of course you don't. Michael Lee, John Bonham -- close enough, right? I remember the time I walked up to John Paul Jones and said "Hey, I loved the new thing you did with "Ramble On" on the 1995 tour." I never could figure out why he glared at me. I mean, it's not like I made a colossal mistake or anything.

And yet Led Zeppelin's "Travelling Riverside Blues" is widely considered a cover of Robert Johnson's "Travelling Riverside Blues" despite not having the same lyrics or music.

It does have some of the same lyrics. That is precisely why it is considered to be a cover.

And that is precisely why "Sugar Mama" is not considered to be a cover.

No copied lyrics = no cover.

I've picked up the SBW connection before. I've never even heard Red Tampa in anything Zeppelin related.

You avoided my question: Have you heard anyone in the Zep camp mention Sonny Boy Williamson OR his song "Sugar Mama", ever?

The fact that YOU believe that you HEAR an influence in their music is absolutely irrelevant. In fact, it makes you a complete hypocrite after demanding that I cite my sources.

Cite your source, man. Back up your claim with evidence. I backed up my claim with evidence that the lyrics were different AND with evidence that Sonny Boy Williamson didn't write the song. You come back and claim that Williamson influenced Zep.....but you can't cite ANY source for this claim.

If that were true then you wouldn't have approached this in the manner you have. I made a statement that it was a cover. You disagreed. I listed my source. You disagreed. I typed out my source. You disagreed.

I didn't just "disagree". I cited a source. And that source is the lyrics to the Sonny Boy's version. And those lyrics are different.

That's where you come off as completely clueless. Don't you get it? In order for a song to be a "cover" of another song, there must be a lyrical or musical duplication. That's not just my opinion, that's U.S. law. Think about it: if the estate of Sonny Boy Williamson attempted to sue Led Zeppelin, they'd get laughed out of court. They'd have no case! Zep would point to the Tampa Red version of "Sugar Mama" and the case would be immediately dropped. But Robert Johnson's estate did have a case, because you could not point to earlier sources of his work.

You keep saying that I fail to cite a source, but Sonny Boy Williamson's lyrics are the ultimate source. Those lyrics are a more valuable, legitimate source than any journalist or author. Those lyrics are definitive. The thread should have ended right there and then.

And by the way, it's not like I'm completely dismissing the work of Nigel Williamson. I'm sure he's fairly well informed about Zep and the blues. But guess what? Good journalists cite their sources. And Nigel failed to cite a source when he claimed that "Sugar Mama" was a Sonny Boy Williamson cover. Oh, the irony!! GTLO chastises me for failing to cite my sources, yet he's perfectly willing to accept un-cited claims from others.

Journalism is a bit like the scientific method. If you make a claim, you better be able to "show your work" so that other scientists (journalists) can reach same conclusion. You can't just say "Sonny Boy Williamson created cold fusion!" and expect the world to take your word for it.

Right or wrong, you don't know how to argue effectively. All you know how to do is try to start personal fights, not make arguments. But please, don't let reason stop you from continuing to be a first class dick.

Oh, irony.

[GetTheLedOut]

Of course you don't. Michael Lee, John Bonham -- close enough, right? I remember the time I walked up to John Paul Jones and said "Hey, I loved the new thing you did with "Ramble On" on the 1995 tour." I never could figure out why he glared at me. I mean, it's not like I made a colossal mistake or anything.

Michael Lee, the Bonham wannabe? Well when listening to audio only it can appear very similar.

It does have some of the same lyrics. That is precisely why it is considered to be a cover.

And that is precisely why "Sugar Mama" is not considered to be a cover.

No copied lyrics = no cover.

Doesn't change that SBW was the root of the song, which is why it is considered a cover.

You avoided my question: Have you heard anyone in the Zep camp mention Sonny Boy Williamson OR his song "Sugar Mama", ever?

The fact that YOU believe that you HEAR an influence in their music is absolutely irrelevant. In fact, it makes you a complete hypocrite after demanding that I cite my sources.

Cite your source, man. Back up your claim with evidence. I backed up my claim with evidence that the lyrics were different AND with evidence that Sonny Boy Williamson didn't write the song. You come back and claim that Williamson influenced Zep.....but you can't cite ANY source for this claim.

No, I answered you directly. I have picked up over time various Plant/Page bites where they talk about SBW. Perhaps a 5 second google search would do you some good.

I didn't just "disagree". I cited a source. And that source is the lyrics to the Sonny Boy's version. And those lyrics are different.

That's where you come off as completely clueless. Don't you get it? In order for a song to be a "cover" of another song, there must be a lyrical or musical duplication. That's not just my opinion, that's U.S. law.

Now you're pretending to understand copyright law? No, just no. You're wrong. Copyright cases have repeatedly shown that you do not need lyric similarities to have copied someone else's work. Don't even try here, you're just wrong.

Think about it: if the estate of Sonny Boy Williamson attempted to sue Led Zeppelin, they'd get laughed out of court. They'd have no case! Zep would point to the Tampa Red version of "Sugar Mama" and the case would be immediately dropped. But Robert Johnson's estate did have a case, because you could not point to earlier sources of his work.

They wouldn't have a case due to the statute of limitations, not because there was no similarity in the works.

You keep saying that I fail to cite a source, but Sonny Boy Williamson's lyrics are the ultimate source. Those lyrics are a more valuable, legitimate source than any journalist or author. Those lyrics are definitive. The thread should have ended right there and then.

But again, you fail to understand lyrics are not needed to have covered an artist. Hell, it's the other way around usually. Many artists quote other artists in their work and have no legal action taken against them, but when they steal the music, that's when they get in trouble.

And by the way, it's not like I'm completely dismissing the work of Nigel Williamson. I'm sure he's fairly well informed about Zep and the blues. But guess what? Good journalists cite their sources. And Nigel failed to cite a source when he claimed that "Sugar Mama" was a Sonny Boy Williamson cover. Oh, the irony!! GTLO chastises me for failing to cite my sources, yet he's perfectly willing to accept un-cited claims from others.

You have only provided lyrics which do not make a strong case. Your argument is based on feeble guesses and poor analysis, not strong evidence.

Journalism is a bit like the scientific method. If you make a claim, you better be able to "show your work" so that other scientists (journalists) can reach same conclusion. You can't just say "Sonny Boy Williamson created cold fusion!" and expect the world to take your word for it.

Good thing I cited my source then, why don't you try it yourself.

Oh, irony.

I've started no fights with you. Everything I've done is reactionary.