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Posted (edited)

I'm not trying to sponsor religious affiliation or anything,

but I did learn that Kosher and halal butchers try to try their animals humanely by using a slaughtering method with the sharpest blade possible, cutting the main artery immediately, so the animal can feel the least amount of pain as possible. [also with no hormones or antibiotics] Anyone can eat it, whether you believe in the religion or not.

Hermit, I would like to humbly state that I don't condone animal abuse and torture at all, but eating meat can be different than torture, and thus not regarded as such. But, I don't have any qualms with vegetarians either :)

Edited by DeepBlackZeppelin
Posted
Not all companies treat their animals in an inhumane manner, more and more people are putting pressure on them to treat and kill their animals in the least painful way possible. For instance, I recently heard that KFC made an agreement with PETA to change the way they treat their Chickens.

But you know, I should probably be doing research into which brands are better than others. I'll be the first to admit I'm probably not doing the right thing with buying certain brands of meat.

Being a conscientious consumer is extremely important, Jarlaxle. Once you start researching factory farming practices you will be amazed, and downright appalled, at what you find. Good on ya for increasing your awareness and mindfulness! :beer:

Hermit, I would like to humbly state that I don't condone animal abuse and torture at all, but eating meat can be different than torture, and thus not regarded as such. But, I don't have any qualms with vegetarians either :)

Hi DBZ! :wave:

It's not the "eating" of the meat that constitutes torture, friend,.. it's the methods by which factory farmed animals are raised, housed and slaughtered that amounts to torture. I won't resort to posting pictures (at this point), but trust me.. knowing as I do that you're a thoughtful, sensitive, caring, and compassionate person.. once you do a little research into factory farming practices, there's no way on earth you could delude yourself into thinking factory farming is anything other than what it is: legalized animal cruelty/torture.

As Jarlaxle indicated, KFC-Canada has decided to finally change their practices, that's a good thing because hopefully that means they'll be providing the chickens more space to live in (and to roam in) which would mean they'll no longer have to cut the beaks off the chickens to keep them from harming eachother.. which they do when they're kept in utterly inhumanely cramped spaces. And hopefully it'll mean they'll no longer allow sadistic abuse of the chickens by employees, and they'll discontinue the practice of dropping live chickens in scalding water to de-feather them. Unfortunately it's only KFC in Canada that has agreed to make chnages in their practices, not KFC in America or other countries.

KFC Canada Gives In to PETA's Demands

For more than five years, PETA has been pressuring fast-food chain KFC to stop the worst abuses of chickens, like scalding birds to death, slitting their throats while they're still conscious, and drugging and breeding them to grow so large that they cripple beneath their own weight. Now PETA has scored a major victory and is ending its Kentucky Fried Cruelty boycott in Canada. The boycott will continue in other countries where KFC has restaurants, including the United States, until they follow KFC Canada's lead.

Following months of closed-door negotiations between PETA and KFC Canada (which is owned by a different company than KFC restaurants in other countries), we are thrilled to announce that KFC Canada has agreed to a historic new animal welfare plan that will dramatically improve the lives and deaths of millions of chickens killed for KFC Canada. The company will take the following actions:

* Phase in purchases of 100 percent of its chickens from suppliers that use controlled-atmosphere killing (CAK)—the least cruel form of poultry slaughter ever developed. KFC Canada is the first major restaurant chain to commit to phasing in the exclusive purchasing of chicken meat from CAK slaughterhouses.

*Add a vegan faux-chicken item to the menu of all 461 Priszm-owned KFC restaurants (more than half of all the KFCs in Canada).

* Improve its animal welfare audit criteria to reduce the number of broken bones and other injuries suffered by birds.

* Urge its suppliers to adopt better practices, including improved lighting, lower stocking density and ammonia levels, and a phaseout of growth-promoting drugs and breeding practices that painfully cripple chickens.

* Form an animal welfare advisory panel to monitor the changes and recommend further advancements.

This is an enormous victory for PETA and our supporters.

However, outside Canada, KFC has not acted to stop the worst abuses of chickens

*source*

chickens

cows

turkeys

pigs

lambs

Its simply unconscionable how these animals are tortured in factory farms. Anyone who feels outrage over a cat being killed microwave would be equally outraged if they saw the cruelty and torture that goes on.. routinely.. in factory farms. But the sad fact of the matter is that many people are so attached to eating meat that they willingly turn a blind eye to the animal cruelty and torture that takes place in factory farms. And amazingly enough, even though these people directly support the animal cruelty industry, they continue to maintain the belief "I oppose animal cruelty".

Self-delusion is mighty effective psychological defense mechanism, aint it? :whistling:

I don't begrudge anyone their choice to eat meat, and I don't judge them for it. I do, however, challenge people who buy factory farmed meat products to re-assess their "I oppose animal cruelty" belief.. because it's a belief that is simply not true if they buy factory farmed meat products. Anyone who buys and eats factory farmed meat products is supporting animal cruelty. That's a fact.

:hippy:

Posted

Just out of curiosity , but how did this thread go from being a story about two teenagers who willfully microwaved a pet to death to, a thread about the virtues or non virtues of eating meat. This was a story about total irresponsibility and the killing of an inocent animal , just for the hell of it. Because they could. What's that got to do with killing an animal for food. As much as I disagree with the cruelty that these animals are put through, You can't possibly be trying to say that this was the reason that the cat was killed. Please say this is not the case :blink:

Posted
You can twist Liz's comment into some self-serving Nazi reference if you want, but I take her comment in the spirit I think it was intended.. and I applaud her for it. I think it's merely a matter of spiritual ignorance that prevents you from recognizing that the fundamental "life essence" that animates humans is the same fundamental "life essence" that animates animals. Your ego-ic need to hold yourself inherently superior to animals is a matter of self-delusion. But hey.. you're human.. "God's favorite creation".. and the world and all its non-human inhabitants were created by your "God" merely for you to exploit for your own needs,.. right?

You got that right. But the word you are looking for is "dominion." We have dominion over all God's creation. But that does not mean that we are supposed to exploit that dominion. Killing for the sake of killing really serves nothing. But killing gophers that attack my garden is perfectly okay. Just as killing ants that infest my kitchen or vicious stray dogs that threaten my family and property are okay too.

And I will admit that I have killed animals in the past without good reason. I mentioned as much that I did so as a boy. But at the same time, I think that many boys do this because in some sense it is probably a throw back to the days of being hunters. The abiltiy to set ones mind to "the kill mode" is something that we now tend to suppress in this culture. Obviously we still eat meat, but we don't usually go out and kill for ourselves do we now? And that is why I think boys probably more than girls are the ones would do an act such as this. Misguided and wrong as it was, they just wanted to kill something and they did. But let's at least not be so hypocritical as to say that our culture does in many ways encourage the killing of animals-- obviously it does. We just need to reinforce in these boys that proper contex for that.

Maybe a Ted Nugent summer camp would be a good idea.

Seriously!

I'd bet after that they would never kill another person's pet. Because if I know Ted, he would make them skin the cat and eat it too...

Maybe even make cat jerky in fact.

:lol:

When you go swimming in the ocean and a shark swims toward you, we'll see how

superior you feel then.. and you'll see just how superior you really aren't.. huh? :P;)

I'll tell you what Hermit -- the day a shark crawls out of the ocean, gets into some sort of transportation and seeks me out and kills me...

well, then I will agree with you that sharks are superior to me.

:whistling:

Yes Hermit, that's the point I was trying to make. That if you wouldn't put a baby in a microwave, why would you put a cat in a microwave? Why aren't more people punished more severely for acts of animal cruelty? Putting an innocent animal in a microwave and watching it die is just as horrifying as putting a baby in a microwave and watching it die. That's not saying you value the animal's life more than the human's life, that's saying you value a life. Period.

A very important distinction must be made here. And that is that IT IS NOT JUST AS HORRIFYING as killing a baby.

No matter how wrong or evil the act of putting an animal in a microwave oven is, it is still NOT MURDER.

You need to check your moral compass there sweetcakes.

moral-compass.jpg

Posted (edited)

Wow! :o

Another story of future serial killers!

Ed Gein killed animals for the sake of the sight of blood goshing, as a young kid...

Edited by Charles_Obscure
Posted

Del, I disagree. It fits my view of murder. It was a premeditated decision by both of these young guy's. It's not something that normal kids would do.

Posted
Wow! :o

Another story of future serial killers!

Ed Gein killed animals for the sake of the sight of blood goshing, as a young kid...

Yeah, that was my thought as well. This is a warning sign, they definitely need some psychiatric help or something. You can't be right in the head if you're going around torturing small animals. What's next? Children? I'm not saying torturing children = torturing animals, necessarily, but it does lead them down a bad path.

Posted
Just out of curiosity , but how did this thread go from being a story about two teenagers who willfully microwaved a pet to death to, a thread about the virtues or non virtues of eating meat. This was a story about total irresponsibility and the killing of an inocent animal , just for the hell of it. Because they could. What's that got to do with killing an animal for food. As much as I disagree with the cruelty that these animals are put through, You can't possibly be trying to say that this was the reason that the cat was killed. Please say this is not the case :blink:

You are right! There is something wrong with the kids who did this. I do not particularly like cats but anyone that can listen to an animal scream for ten minutes while being cooked from the inside out needs to have their head examined! I don't see how anyone can try to turn this story into anything but what it is, SICK!

Posted
Just out of curiosity , but how did this thread go from being a story about two teenagers who willfully microwaved a pet to death to, a thread about the virtues or non virtues of eating meat. This was a story about total irresponsibility and the killing of an inocent animal , just for the hell of it. Because they could. What's that got to do with killing an animal for food. As much as I disagree with the cruelty that these animals are put through, You can't possibly be trying to say that this was the reason that the cat was killed. Please say this is not the case :blink:

I thought the transition was both clear and entirely contextually appropriate,

ally. Maybe it wasn't so clear afterall,.. or perhaps maybe you just missed it. -->

I can't help but wonder how many people who have expressed outrage over the cat being killed in the microwave oven are themselves meat eaters who.. by way of their decision to eat meat.. directly support an industry.. the factory farming industry.. that amounts to legalized animal cruelty/torture?

:whistling:

The point I was making, ally, was that it's easy for people to say "I condemn animal cruelty/torture!" when they read stories like the 'cat killed in a microwave' story, but it's not so easy to acknowledge to oneself the reality that by choosing to eat factory farmed meat one actually supports and condones animal cruelty/torture.

You said "As much as I disagree with the cruelty that these animals are put through". I wonder.. are you referring to cats tortured and killed in microwave ovens.. or cattle, chickens, turkeys, pigs, and lambs tortured and killed in factory farms? From the perspective of what the animals go through, it's no different. Both scenarios involve animals being tortured and killed.. for human enjoyment. From the perspective of what the animals go through it doesn't matters if the "human enjoyment" is in the torture itself (as in the cat tragedy) or in the eating of the dead animal's meat after its been tortured (as in the case of factory farming). Both scenarios involve animals being tortured and killed for human enjoyment. Any distinction you might make is merely a distinction to help ease your conscience.

You don't need me to explain, in graphic detail (perhaps with pictures as a visual aid), how hanging a cow by one ankle and skinning it while it's still alive is no less torturous to that cow than being radiated in a microwave oven was torturous for that cat.. do you? Wanna see and hear what pigs go through before they end up in a BLT sandwich for someone's lunch, or as pork chops for someone's dinner? :(

The fact of the matter is that factory farming is legalized animal cruelty/torture.

Its not an easy fact for eaters of factory farmed meat to acknowledge, but it is a fact.

All I ask is that people who choose to continue eating factory farmed meat products have the self-honesty and self-courage to acknowledge and say to themselves: "I do condone and support the animal cruelty and torture that is part of the factory farming process that provides me with meat to eat".

Is that too much to ask? huh.gif

B)

:hippy:

Posted
I thought the transition was both clear and entirely contextually appropriate,

ally. Maybe it wasn't so clear afterall,.. or perhaps maybe you just missed it. -->

The point I was making, ally, was that it's easy for people to say "I condemn animal cruelty/torture!" when they read stories like the 'cat killed in a microwave' story, but it's not so easy to acknowledge to oneself the reality that by choosing to eat factory farmed meat one actually supports and condones animal cruelty/torture.

You said "As much as I disagree with the cruelty that these animals are put through". I wonder.. are you referring to cats tortured and killed in microwave ovens.. or cattle, chickens, turkeys, pigs, and lambs tortured and killed in factory farms? From the perspective of what the animals go through, it's no different. Both scenarios involve animals being tortured and killed.. for human enjoyment. From the perspective of what the animals go through it doesn't matters if the "human enjoyment" is in the torture itself (as in the cat tragedy) or in the eating of the dead animal's meat after its been tortured (as in the case of factory farming). Both scenarios involve animals being tortured and killed for human enjoyment. Any distinction you might make is merely a distinction to help ease your conscience.

You don't need me to explain, in graphic detail (perhaps with pictures as a visual aid), how hanging a cow by one ankle and skinning it while it's still alive is no less torturous to that cow than being radiated in a microwave oven was torturous for that cat.. do you? Wanna see and hear what pigs go through before they end up in a BLT sandwich for someone's lunch, or as pork chops for someone's dinner? :(

The fact of the matter is that factory farming is legalized animal cruelty/torture.

Its not an easy fact for eaters of factory farmed meat to acknowledge, but it is a fact.

All I ask is that people who choose to continue eating factory farmed meat products have the self-honesty and self-courage to acknowledge and say to themselves: "I do condone and support the animal cruelty and torture that is part of the factory farming process that provides me with meat to eat".

Is that too much to ask? huh.gif

B)

:hippy:

I just don't think that the cruelty to animals thing is the main point here! There is something wrong with these kids! If they don't get help who knows what they will become when they get older!

Posted

I eat factory farm food..AND feed it to my cat.

torturing and killing innocent animals(especially domesticated ones) is inexcuseable when so many people are so deserving of exactly that kind of treatment(those 2 fucked up teens to start with)

Posted
I just don't think that the cruelty to animals thing is the main point here! There is something wrong with these kids! If they don't get help who knows what they will become when they get older!

I never claimed it was "the main point" here, but it ts a related point.

..and an appropriately related point at that, I might add.

My query was [bold and italics text added presently]..

I can't help but wonder how many people who have expressed outrage over the cat being killed in the microwave oven are themselves meat eaters who.. by way of their decision to eat meat.. directly support an industry.. the factory farming industry.. that amounts to legalized animal cruelty/torture?

:whistling:

I think you might acknowledge that my query is in fact related to the thread topic and is perfectly appropriate for discussion here. I understand, of course, why people who eat factory farmed meat may not want this aspect of the issue to be discussed here. They prefer to continue seeing themselves as people who "condemn animal cruelty", but the factory farming aspect of the issue points out the fallacy of that self-belief.

Its easy to say "there's something wrong with "those" kids", but it's not so easy to look at those aspects of ourselves in which we might be like "those" kids.. albeit even remotely. So far as I can tell, only Del has acknowledged that he can relate to the "killer impulse" that those kids acted out extremely inappropriately. Kudos to him for that acknowledgement; that took courage. :beer: However, even Del has thus far been unwilling to acknowledge the reality that factory farmed animals suffer through cruelty and torture, let alone does he accept personality responsibility for the torture done to animals on behalf of his culinary enjoyment. He's obviously not alone in that regard though, eh? ;)

:hippy:

Posted
Del, I disagree. It fits my view of murder. It was a premeditated decision by both of these young guy's. It's not something that normal kids would do.

Show me where there is a law for mudering an animal? Maybe in India or something, but in no western nation are there any laws for murdering an animal.

In California murder is defined as:

The unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought.

So lets break down the body of the crime these boys committed and see if that passes the test.

unlawful - yes

killing - yes

malice - yes

human being or fetus - no

therefore they did not commit a murder. Animal cruelty and other 'property crimes' yes, but never a murder to kill any animal under any circumstances.

Yeah, that was my thought as well. This is a warning sign, they definitely need some psychiatric help or something. You can't be right in the head if you're going around torturing small animals. What's next? Children? I'm not saying torturing children = torturing animals, necessarily, but it does lead them down a bad path.

Maybe it is a warning sign, especially if there is a pattern to this. But more likely that it is an isolated incident. It's up to the parents now and other authorities to monitor these boys for any other signs. But if they are remorsful already, then this is just one of those stupid things kids do and end up learning a lesson from.

But let me ask anyone here if they would feel just as uneasy about this if it wasn't a cat placed in a microwave? What if it was a bunch of boys drowning a rat in a bucket of water? Or maybe pouring burning gasoline down an ant hill. Would you still think they might be on the path to being serial killers?

Doesn't anyone see some hypocricy in this?

Posted
Show me where there is a law for mudering an animal? Maybe in India or something, but in no western nation are there any laws for murdering an animal.

In California murder is defined as:

The unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought.

So lets break down the body of the crime these boys committed and see if that passes the test.

unlawful - yes

killing - yes

malice - yes

human being or fetus - no

therefore they did not commit a murder. Animal cruelty and other 'property crimes' yes, but never a murder to kill any animal under any circumstances.

Maybe it is a warning sign, especially if there is a pattern to this. But more likely that it is an isolated incident. It's up to the parents now and other authorities to monitor these boys for any other signs. But if they are remorsful already, then this is just one of those stupid things kids do and end up learning a lesson from.

But let me ask anyone here if they would feel just as uneasy about this if it wasn't a cat placed in a microwave? What if it was a bunch of boys drowning a rat in a bucket of water? Or maybe pouring burning gasoline down an ant hill. Would you still think they might be on the path to being serial killers?

Doesn't anyone see some hypocricy in this?

Of course they are remorseful, because they got cought. I have shot birds in my backyard with my BB gun. When I was older I went hunting and killed small animals with a rifle. I fish, but, not in my wildest dreams have I ever thought of putting a living thing in a microwave oven and turning it on. There is a differance between stupid stuff kids do and what could become a serious pathological condition. So, I guess that means I do not see the hypocricy in this.

Posted
Show me where there is a law for mudering an animal? Maybe in India or something, but in no western nation are there any laws for murdering an animal.

In California murder is defined as:

The unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought.

So lets break down the body of the crime these boys committed and see if that passes the test.

unlawful - yes

killing - yes

malice - yes

human being or fetus - no

therefore they did not commit a murder. Animal cruelty and other 'property crimes' yes, but never a murder to kill any animal under any circumstances.

Maybe it is a warning sign, especially if there is a pattern to this. But more likely that it is an isolated incident. It's up to the parents now and other authorities to monitor these boys for any other signs. But if they are remorsful already, then this is just one of those stupid things kids do and end up learning a lesson from.

But let me ask anyone here if they would feel just as uneasy about this if it wasn't a cat placed in a microwave? What if it was a bunch of boys drowning a rat in a bucket of water? Or maybe pouring burning gasoline down an ant hill. Would you still think they might be on the path to being serial killers?

Doesn't anyone see some hypocricy in this?

I won't be able to find a law that defines it as murder. I do however think that it fit's my definition. Now I fully realize that under the law these losers are not going to be charged with that if charged at all. I do think that most people would view they're actions as cruel, inhumane, and yes , even murder

Posted
Doesn't anyone see some hypocricy in this?

I do. :wave:

Many of the people who condemn animal cruelty when they hear stories like this one are people who themselves support animal cruelty by way of buying factory farmed meat products.

That's a wee bit hypocritical, ain't it? :whistling:

:hippy:

Posted
I do. :wave:

Many of the people who condemn animal cruelty when they hear stories like this one are people who themselves support animal cruelty by way of buying factory farmed meat products.

That's a wee bit hypocritical, ain't it? :whistling:

:hippy:

Food vs an effort to be nothing more than cruel. There is a difference

Posted
Food vs an effort to be nothing more than cruel. There is a difference

Animal cruelty for the enjoyment of inflicting animal cruelty is bad, but animal cruelty as a

means to an end that you approve of.. putting meat on your meal plate.. is ok. Is that it?

The animal suffers less when the cruelty inflicted upon it is so you can eat meat. Is that it?

:whistling:

Sorry ally,.. your rationalization is not logically or intellectually sound, friend; it's merely self-deluding denial. Rather than face the reality that animals are being tortured so you can eat meat, you convince yourself that "there is a difference".. but there ain't no difference. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. The "why" part is irrelevant.

:hippy:

Posted
Animal cruelty for the enjoyment of inflicting animal cruelty is bad, but animal cruelty as a

means to an end that you approve of.. putting meat on your meal plate.. is ok. Is that it?

The animal suffers less when the cruelty inflicted upon it is so you can eat meat. Is that it?

:whistling:

Sorry ally,.. your rationalization is not logically or intellectually sound, friend; it's merely self-deluding denial. Rather than face the reality that animals are being tortured so you can eat meat, you convince yourself that "there is a difference".. but there ain't no difference. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. The "why" part is irrelevant.

:hippy:

Oh, don't get me wrong Hermit. I wish we were using a different method to garner our meat supply but, last I heard, cat wasn't part of our food chain. Mind you, some of the Chinese reatraunts that I've been to over the years have been accused of serving it :D

Posted
Oh, don't get me wrong Hermit. I wish we were using a different method to garner our meat supply but, last I heard, cat wasn't part of our food chain. Mind you, some of the Chinese reatraunts that I've been to over the years have been accused of serving it :D

I don't get you wrong at all, ally,.. you support an industry that is steeped in animal

cruelty and torture; ergo you support animal cruelty and torture. It's crystal clear. ;)

And btw,.. cat is not a meat of choice in western cultures, but what about those animals that are meats of choice in western cultures (cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, lambs..).. have you ever researched what happens to those animals before they end up on your meal plate? [of course you haven't; if you did, you'd no longer be able to deny that animals are tortured for your eating enjoyment. :P].

Happy self-deluded steeped-in-denial dining, friend. :wave:

B)

:hippy:

Posted
I don't get you wrong at all, ally,.. you support an industry that is steeped in animal

cruelty and torture; ergo you support animal cruelty and torture. It's crystal clear. ;)

And btw,.. cat is not a meat of choice in western cultures, but what about those animals that are meats of choice in western cultures (cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, lambs..).. have you ever researched what happens to those animals before they end up on your meal plate? [of course you haven't; if you did, you'd no longer be able to deny that animals are tortured for your eating enjoyment. :P ].

Happy self-deluded steeped-in-denial dining, friend. :wave:

B)

:hippy:

Well, I never :D Sorry Hermit but I'm going to make myself a nice steak and egg breakfast and your absolutely right in saying that I won't be thinking about how that steak got on my plate. Food is food my man and if you wish not to partake in eating meat then that is your choice. You are quite free to make that call on your own. For the life of me though, I just can't see how you can compare the actions of these two teenagers to the need to eat. Having said that, I do get a little uncomfortable when I cut the grass or trim a tree these day's. ;)

Posted (edited)
Well, I never :D Sorry Hermit but I'm going to make myself a nice steak and egg breakfast and your absolutely right in saying that I won't be thinking about how that steak got on my plate. Food is food my man and if you wish not to partake in eating meat then that is your choice. You are quite free to make that call on your own. For the life of me though, I just can't see how you can compare the actions of these two teenagers to the need to eat. Having said that, I do get a little uncomfortable when I cut the grass or trim a tree these day's. ;)

Eating meat is not a "need".. it's a "choice".

Eating factory farmed meat is not a "need".. it's a "choice".

You are free to make the choice to eat factory farmed meat, friend, but in doing so you are choosing to support an industry that is steeped in animal cruelty/torture.. ergo, you are personally supporting animal cruelty/torture. That's the fact; that's the reality.

So,.. by all means do enjoy your steak and egg breakfast! :cheer: But do you have

the personal integrity to at least acknowledge that you support animal cruelty/torture? :whistling:

Bon appetit! :wave:B)

:hippy:

Edited by Hermit_

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