The possible Led Zeppelin... could they have been better?

[Lee]

Entwistle needs to learn how to support the music, instead of showing how good of a bass player he is.

Have to disagree there!

He was certainly a flashy bass player, but IMO his lines fitted perfectly with Pete's songs...and you have to admit, being in a rhythm section with Keith Moon, who was all over the place, can't have been an easy job to hold down.

A far better example would surely be Jaco Pastorius. Probably the best bass guitar player ever, "a monster" according to Jimmy Page (who also used that term to describe the incredible Buddy Guy), but at the end of the day....just too much. I'll happily admit I never saw him play in the flesh, but I know that sitting through one of his solos would have bored the pants off me after five minutes. When playing alongside the rest of Weather Report, fine, but even then a bit too busy for my ears at times.

[Hickory Man]

I think this question should be, "The Who: could they have been better?"

If Keith Moon hadn't passed away? Definitely.

[GetTheLedOut]

... with no singer

Entwistle would have been the vocalist

For me, they could have. But most Who fans love Townshend, his lyrics, and don't seem to mind the odd guitar style. I think the instrument bashing was ridiculous - I can't even listen to the live tracks that end this way...

Odd guitar style? Townshend just used a variant of flamenco guitar rhythm. Page has used this style too. Townshend was the genius of the Who, so if you don't have him, you have a significantly lesser Who.

Moon can't hang with Bonzo

I completely disagree. While I think Bonzo is the better drummer, Moon could "hang" with anyone.

Entwistle needs to learn how to support the music, instead of showing how good of a bass player he is.

That is the most musically ignorant statement one can make about a bass player.

Awesome musicians, sans Moon, imo, but that doesn't always make a great, or even good band. If musicianship ruled the music world, music would suck.

Many believe Moon to be the best musican in the Who, and every player in the Who was great at their respective instrument.

[beatbo]

keith moon began his career one of the most dynamic drummers in rock music and certainly the lynchpin on which the whole sound of the who was propelled. moon ended his career a sad effigy of himself. drugs and alcohol. he was not the only drummer in rock music to lose some ability from some bad habits. but there is little doubt that in his prime, the who was the only band that could contend with zeppelin onstage. i'm sure john bonham himself, were he alive to ask, would defend moon to any detractors here.

john entwistle has always been considered one of the best by any other bass player that straps one on. he was a little salty about zep's success but that takes away from his talent not one lick.

of course pete is pete, but i have always loved his guitar playing as well as his singing. many jimmy page fans love pete's playing and still think jimmy page is god.

there is too much chemistry involved with both of these bands to take this thread too seriously.

but anybody, especially a drummer, that shitcans keith moon has no idea what they are talking about and even less of an idea about band dynamics.

[jimmie ray]

Odd guitar style? Townshend just used a variant of flamenco guitar rhythm. Page has used this style too. Townshend was the genius of the Who, so if you don't have him, you have a significantly lesser Who.

I always considered his style as a sort of exclamation point, thrown in at appropriate timing - while Entwistle delivered the main body of sound. Never associated this with flamenco (maybe the acoustic stuff) or Page's style?

[pdxjim]

Aside from all the other reasons, scenarios, and speculation, wasn't the project begun as a one off record to finish up the Yardbirds contract? And, with any or all of those mentioned it probably would have been a one off deal. Plus there might not have been The Who's Tommy, no blind Faith, etc. And most importantly would have been the trajectory as rock as a whole, and hard rock and metal in particular? The corporations would have squeezed the life out of music sooner and started rolling out the crap they call popular music a lot sooner. LZ was one those few bands that left more than a few good songs in it's wake. LZ made it possible for other bands to be more creative and have more control over what di and what rights they had to their own music. So in my mind it's a little more than the 4 or 5 members that might been, it's a legacy that might have been radically different.

[Mountain Hopper]

No. The magic that happened in Zep was only possible with the four guys who were in it.

I totally agree. Well said.

[beatbo]

I always considered his style as a sort of exclamation point, thrown in at appropriate timing - while Entwistle delivered the main body of sound. Never associated this with flamenco (maybe the acoustic stuff) or Page's style?

nah, i agree with ledout, heavy flamenco influence. i'm not sure, but i think it's a matter of record, with towshend in several interviews....

[GetTheLedOut]

I always considered his style as a sort of exclamation point, thrown in at appropriate timing - while Entwistle delivered the main body of sound. Never associated this with flamenco (maybe the acoustic stuff) or Page's style?

It's not a mainstay of Page's guitar work, but songs like "The Song Remains The Same" share a great deal of guitar styling with Townshend.

[Ronniedawg]

I heard the names Bachman/Cummings were being batted around at the time.....can anyone confirm this?

[ArmsofAtlas]

It's not a mainstay of Page's guitar work, but songs like "The Song Remains The Same" share a great deal of guitar styling with Townshend.

I have never heard a Who song that is even remotely as complex as TSRTS.

Townshend and Page are about as different as 2 classic rock guitarists get. Townshend is a great song writer and had a hand in some cool arrangements, but the technicality of his play isn't really that outstanding.

[beatbo]

I have never heard a Who song that is even remotely as complex as TSRTS.

Townshend and Page are about as different as 2 classic rock guitarists get. Townshend is a great song writer and had a hand in some cool arrangements, but the technicality of his play isn't really that outstanding.

probably could not have had 'tsrts' or any multi-part song by anyone without the who.

go back to 'sparks' from "tommy" here's a woodstock clip here sparks-the who

tommy is from 1969, with many of the musical parts and several songs being written before then.

earlier, you say? more complex? how about 'a quick one' from 1966 a quick one

led zeppelin is the world's greatest band(and page my favorite guitar player, bar NONE), but to rip on towshend for songwriting complexity is not only heinous but can only be done by a person who has never listened to the who...

do yourself a favor and not only scope out those clips but check out the source material. if you like, we can go see some of townshend's 70's compositions....

[ArmsofAtlas]

probably could not have had 'tsrts' or any multi-part song by anyone without the who.

go back to 'sparks' from "tommy" here's a woodstock clip here sparks-the who

tommy is from 1969, with many of the musical parts and several songs being written before then.

earlier, you say? more complex? how about 'a quick one' from 1966 a quick one

led zeppelin is the world's greatest band(and page my favorite guitar player, bar NONE), but to rip on towshend for songwriting complexity is not only heinous but can only be done by a person who has never listened to the who...

do yourself a favor and not only scope out those clips but check out the source material. if you like, we can go see some of townshend's 70's compositions....

I agree with alot of that, as I point out in my post, but Jimmy Page's playing is on a whole other level from Pete Townshend.

This is in no way saying a song has to be hard to play to be good, just comparing the complexity of the Who and Zep tunes.

[zepskier]

Aside from all the other reasons, scenarios, and speculation, wasn't the project begun as a one off record to finish up the Yardbirds contract?

I think this project came about because the Who were going through some hard times and John Entwistle and Keith Moon were getting ready to start a new band with the clever name Led Zeppelin

[beatbo]

I think this project came about because the Who were going through some hard times and John Entwistle and Keith Moon were getting ready to start a new band with the clever name Led Zeppelin

i always thought that the personnel were assembled to make the new jeff beck record....

[docron]

I just wish I knew what it was people liked so much about The Who...

I'm not silly enough to say that they sucked compared to Zeppelin, I just don't think I understand them or what they were trying to accomplish. Too young maybe? I'm just 23.

I think The Who was awesome live, but in my opinion their studio cuts just don't hold much water these days.

[GetTheLedOut]

I have never heard a Who song that is even remotely as complex as TSRTS.

Townshend and Page are about as different as 2 classic rock guitarists get. Townshend is a great song writer and had a hand in some cool arrangements, but the technicality of his play isn't really that outstanding.

Then you haven't ever seen the Who live. Townshend does things I've never even seen Page do. I agree Page is the better guitarist, but Townshend is just about as good as it gets.

[GetTheLedOut]

This is in no way saying a song has to be hard to play to be good, just comparing the complexity of the Who and Zep tunes.

I think your vastly overrating the complexity of Zep's songs. There are certainly some complex ones, but most are in the same general area as the Who's music and other bands of that era. Zep gets complex more often than the Who did, but that's not necessarily a good thing, and keep in mind the Who went that direction more than a few times themselves, and in many ways went further than Zeppelin. I don't recall any Page authored rock operas.

[Peter]

Wow, with Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Keith Moon, John Entwistle?? What a lineup! I would have loved to see that band record something. That said, I don't think you can even make the comparison "would they have been better." That lineup would have sounded completely different than anything Zeppelin recorded. Either way, Led Zeppelin turned out pretty good, in my opinion!

I love "Moon the Loon" on drums. He's the reason I started playing drums. But when I discoverd John Bonham... He's the one and only Zep drummer and rock drummer ever.

And he sounded best with the other three.

The best band is a band that on itself is better than any individual whitin that band.

[reids]

Now that The Who are survived by just Pete and Roger and the only survivors of the Beatles are Paul and Ringo, how about the four of them just perform each others numbers and maybe some new stuff???

Ringo's son, Zak is already drumming for them.

Pete -- guitar, vocals

Roger --- vocals, harmonica, guitar

Paul --- bass, vocals

Ringo --- drums, vocals

R

[Reggie29]

How about this line up.

Willie and the Poor Boys.

http://www.warnermusic.com.au/product,w_prod,2564631092AU

[ArmsofAtlas]

I think your vastly overrating the complexity of Zep's songs. There are certainly some complex ones, but most are in the same general area as the Who's music and other bands of that era. Zep gets complex more often than the Who did, but that's not necessarily a good thing, and keep in mind the Who went that direction more than a few times themselves, and in many ways went further than Zeppelin. I don't recall any Page authored rock operas.

I think you are vastly underrating the complexity of Zep's songs. I'm not sayin every Zep song is hard to play, but there are some that are damn near impossible. I can play several, and I'm not some amazing guitar player.

I have watched several Who dvd's, and I haven't ever seen anything from Townshend that was that mind blowing, and the guy uses tons and tons of standard chord shapes, and to my knowledge, not many different techniques, tunings, etc, etc.

When Page did delve into the more progressive, rock opera-y stuff, the arrangements were always more interesting, and they flowed better.

[zepskier]

i always thought that the personnel were assembled to make the new jeff beck record....

They got together and played on a jeff beck record, but keith was the one who wanted to start the band because he was fed up with the who, but the idea was dismissed because they couldn't find the right lead singer

[GetTheLedOut]

I think you are vastly underrating the complexity of Zep's songs. I'm not sayin every Zep song is hard to play, but there are some that are damn near impossible. I can play several, and I'm not some amazing guitar player.

I've played guitar for my entire teenhood and then some, but even before I had all these years under my belt I rarely felt that a Zeppelin song was completely out of reach. A lot of their stuff isn't too particularly challenging. It takes skill, but nothing they do is "near impossible".

I have watched several Who dvd's, and I haven't ever seen anything from Townshend that was that mind blowing, and the guy uses tons and tons of standard chord shapes, and to my knowledge, not many different techniques, tunings, etc, etc.

Pete two-hand taps, throws in bits of scales whenever possible, and does it in an extremely tasteful fashion. There are plenty of different styles and techniques he uses, so you must just not be paying close enough attention. And in regards to tunings, using more doesn't make you a better guitarist.

When Page did delve into the more progressive, rock opera-y stuff, the arrangements were always more interesting, and they flowed better.

Eh... we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm not trying to put Page/Zeppelin down, what they did was fantastic, just as a musician I don't buy the myth that they were doing things no one else could do, because they didn't. They still wrote songs and played them very well.

[ArmsofAtlas]

I've played guitar for my entire teenhood and then some, but even before I had all these years under my belt I rarely felt that a Zeppelin song was completely out of reach. A lot of their stuff isn't too particularly challenging. It takes skill, but nothing they do is "near impossible".

Pete two-hand taps, throws in bits of scales whenever possible, and does it in an extremely tasteful fashion. There are plenty of different styles and techniques he uses, so you must just not be paying close enough attention. And in regards to tunings, using more doesn't make you a better guitarist.

Eh... we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm not trying to put Page/Zeppelin down, what they did was fantastic, just as a musician I don't buy the myth that they were doing things no one else could do, because they didn't. They still wrote songs and played them very well.

I think there are a generous handful of Zeppelin songs that are pretty f'in hard to learn, not to mention the fact that Page would rearrange things to cover multiple parts, live

I'm not sayin Townshend can't play guitar, but aside from being a pioneer, his playing isn't really all that advanced. And yes, being able to play in many different tunings does make you a better guitarist. How could it not?

Zep weren't necessarily doing things that nobody else could do, they were just doing a lot of things that nobody else had done. Taking their influences and stretching them farther than any band before or since.