Some tips for voting...

[Katuschka]

C. Gaines used Hitler as his example because we can all readily agree that Hitler is not deserving of respect, and therefore Hitler very clearly meets the "even if you don't respect the person holding the office" criteria set forth by Del. The question/challenge to Del was therefore quite clear and straightforward.

I think he used Hitler as an example also because even though the man does not deserve respect, he WAS respected by the majority of German citizens.

[Katuschka]

I don't know why some people choose to feel that if you're not from this country, your opinion on this country and the people in it or the people who run it, matter less or not at all.

...while American's opinion on the rest of the world matters a lot, right?

Or course it matters a lot. It's impossible to "mind your own business" in today's world. I'm not indifferent to situations in other countries. In many cases it also affects me as well.

Some people should realize that since American policy greatly affects world's politics, people from other countries have every right to voice their opinion on it, because it concerns them too. It's, after all, the only thing they can do, because they have no direct influence over it.

[Del Zeppnile]

Hi Del, I really don't think Gains meant to compare them, he was asking a hypothetical question using the most disgusting person he could think of in order to ask the question "Does the POTUS deserve our respect just because he holds that office?" Knowing no one in their right mind would give respect to Hitler I think it's a thought provoking question....

No I don't believe it is thought provoking at all. It is a false analogy to compare the elected leader of a free and democratic society--- no matter how much one may disagrees with that leader, to a dictatorship. The President of the United States represents the legal consent of the governed with all the checks and balances built into our constitution. Hitler was none of that, and therefore can not be compared. It is a silly hypothetical question. And in context to his earlier comment about Bush being a monkey, it is also offensive.

How many times in the past have you posted a comment or a picture that mocked Elizabeth II? How about other foreign statesmen? Or simply people from foreign countries? You're not the one who should tell others to be respectful.

Yes I have made a joke or two about the Royals, but they aren't elected representatives of the people are they? Heads of state maybe in a ceremonial sense, but the "divine right of kings" thing is pretty much past it's time.

I think George W. Bush is an incompetent idiot. Deal with it.

You are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion he has kept Americans safe and many others around the world. For that he deserves my respect as well as the same from others.

His problem with you? You were the one who responded to his post and you were the one who were attacking him from the start. The fact that you mentioned his sexual preference is enough; it's completely off-topic, therefore it can be considered defamatory. I've seen your arguments in the other threads.

And how was his comment about George Bush "on topic" to what the creator of this thread intended. Gainsbarre makes his outlandish comments, so he gets what he gets.

He did no such thing. He asked a simple question: why should we respect people that don't deserve our respect?

You took it as a very hateful and rude remark because you wanted to take it as a hateful and rude remark.

Calling the president a monkey IS rude, and that was Gainsbarre's intention. And yes, I take it that way coming from Gainsbarre, especially in context to all the other anti-American remarks he makes.

He made no comments about your country, he made a comment about your president. If you think that that's one and the same thing, then you are a bigot. Sorry.

The President is part of this country. Wether you or anyone else likes him or not does not diminish the FACT that he was the choice of a majority of Americans -- TWICE.

I suppose you believe that a majority of Americans are idiots too then?

Would you still respect the office of the presidency if someone as heinous as Hitler held that office? [in other words: Is your respect for the office of the presidency unqualified (absolute).. or is it qualified (subject to exceptions)?]

Again, since no one in over two hundred years has ever even come close to being a totalitarian dictator while holding the office of the President, I don't see any relevance whatsoever to that question. But if someone as heinous as Hitler ever did become our leader, then it would really be more of an indication of the complete failure of our people, our legislators, our judges and finally our military... than in the man who became the dictator.

Obviously if that was Gainsbarre's intention by his hypothetical, he completly overstated the case as it applies to President Bush. So to answer your question: No, that would not be a reason to disrespect the office of the President -- it would be a reason to loose respect for ourselves.

Just as it was the shame of the German people to loose respect for themselves for abondoning their democratic principals and following after a "messiah type" leader... who ended up leading them into the pit of hell.

I don't know how to answer it any better than that.

[Del Zeppnile]

I know this post is going to be totally ignored, but oh well...I feel like posting in this thread, so there.

I have no intention of ignoring this. This is an excellent post, and I'm glad that you posted it.

I think that patriotism is a very nice quality. I love my country (Canada), and I feel sad for anyone that doesn't love their country.

And I agree with you. I not only feel sad for anyone who has no patriotism towards their country; I also question their ability to value anything... especially when they are living in nations with so many good qualities to be proud of.

The thing is....the leader of a country that is elected by 'the people' is HUMAN. He or she is a human being...they make mistakes, they are NOT infallible.

I think some people actually believe that leaders need to be perfect. Obviously they are not and can never be perfect. Anyone who expects that to be a possibility is probably one of those who are the most dispaointed when things don't go as they expect them to.

We should at least be fair in our judgment of our leaders.

I am not happy with George W. Bush. I am Canadian, but I live in the US, and his decisions affect the way I live. Yes, I chose to live here, because I fell in love with an American. But I do not like the way he handles things, and I can't wait for 3 years to be over so I can apply for American citizenship so that I can vote. I take these things seriously, and greatly anticipate the time when I will have the right to vote here.

I am not happy with many things about George W. Bush. I could go down the list of my complaints as well. But he has kept us safe since 9/11, and I am thankful that he decided to DO SOMETHING to stop the threat of attack against our people. I believe that people need to constantly remind themselves about what their thoughts were the day those towers in New York came down. People need to remember that nearly all of us cried out for some kind of RESPONSE, and our President along with other leaders like Tony Blair answered that cry. And even if we don't agree with the way everything was handled, we should at least acknowlege that these leaders acted on our behalf and at our request.

I do respect the office of the President. I am obsessed with Revolutionary War history, and greatly respect the men who led the early United States of America. I read all the literature on these men...and I think that the current President could learn a thing or two from the founding fathers of the nation. With all of their own human mistakes.

That's fair. And I think it's also fair to say that history will judge this President the same way history judges all Presidents. It may be that we just don't see it now; but if there is a chance that stability comes to the middle east as a result of the victory in Iraq.. Then just maybe this President will be looked on with favor one day. In the same way that Harry Truman was not especially thought too well of during his presidency. Although, history has since judged him in a much better light.

Or how JFK was always looked at favorably. But still there looms this sense that JFK really missed an oppourtunity to do so much more for the civil rights movement. But instead hesitated, and actually showed some degree of distain for the movement. Again and like you said, people are human and make mistakes.

I respect the office of Prime Minister in my own country, but I still greatly disagree with who holds that office now. That's the great thing about being in a free society. You can do that and not be arrested. Awesome. Often, I hear derogatory things about Canada....I do feel upset, but I remember that everyone in this world is entitled to their own opinion. All I can do is defend my country the best I can. Without attacking others for the way they feel....it's a fine line to walk.

And I fully accept that sentiment ZD. And just as you have voiced your critisism of GWB, you have at least done it respectfully. You would never hear me just go off on someone because they have an opinion contrary to my own. I just don't appreciate the onslaught of negative and rude comments that some people have made about our country.

The patriot in me just can't let that slip by without comment... nor should it.

In any event, I fully appreciate your comments and sentiments here. And I am very glad to have you as a fellow citizen.

[Gainsbarre]

The most appalling act committed by George W Bush and his Administration, in my opinion, was to steer democratic debate in the USA into a questioning of people's patriotism. The Bush Administration, and the Republican party, for its own political gains, did their best to establish the President and the Republican Party as the only true franchise of American Patriotism and Values. Since 9/11 the Democratic Party has been on the back-foot, always having to 'prove' its patriotism, 'prove' that it is not un-American, because the Bush Administration has been so successful at tainting opposing views or values, or ideas not embraced by the Republican party, as decidedly un-American. This is why the Democratic Party is accused of moving to the centre-right, because any political idea or value that is left-of-centre is accused of being unpatriotic.

That is why I feel it is crucial for the Democratic Party to win this coming election, as a way of re-establishing alternative political values, instead of the party morphing into a second Conservative party out of fear.

[kirchzep27]

the first judge of the -guatamo bay hearings stepped down, cause of -waterboardiing confessions and the surge in -iraq was influenced by money. so that'll influence anybody's voting, im sure.

[Gainsbarre]

Perhaps the death of the parties as we know them would be the best thing that could ever happen.

mmm, not really...

The trouble is when you have senate-based or parliamentry systems, you need large political parties with a defined agenda to be able to form a stable government. If you don't have that, then you have smaller parties who have to form coalitions with other smaller parties to form a government and then their actions are hampered by internal disagreements, and governments falling out of office due to parties breaking away. This very situation plagued France in the 1930's, and they went through many years right up until WW2 where they did not have a stable government.

Otherwise if you do away with political parties, then you have to elect someone to full political power, you'd be electing a dictator for 4 years basically

[Katuschka]

Yes I have made a joke or two about the Royals, but they aren't elected representatives of the people are they? Heads of state maybe in a ceremonial sense, but the "divine right of kings" thing is pretty much past it's time.

They also have no real power. It's only a honorable institution. It's importance lies only in the fact that it part of national identity. If you mock this institution, you most this part f national ientity. Think about it, Superhero.

You are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion he has kept Americans safe and many others around the world. For that he deserves my respect as well as the same from others.

Cool. I don't agree with your opinion, but it's ok. my opinion doesn't count anyway, because I don't have the power to "decide".

And how was his comment about George Bush "on topic" to what the creator of this thread intended. Gainsbarre makes his outlandish comments, so he gets what he gets.

Calling the president a monkey IS rude, and that was Gainsbarre's intention. And yes, I take it that way coming from Gainsbarre, especially in context to all the other anti-American remarks he makes.

Maybe, but I still think you overreacted.

The President is part of this country. Wether you or anyone else likes him or not does not diminish the FACT that he was the choice of a majority of Americans -- TWICE.

I suppose you believe that a majority of Americans are idiots too then?

No, I don't believe that a majority of Americans are idiots. You accused me from this in the past and you're accusing me from it now, too. I suppose that's the easiest argument you can come up with. If I thought what the majority or Americans are idiots, I wouldn't be studying Anglistics and Americanistics. That would be quite boring, and frustrating (although...sometimes I do find it frustrating; when I read some of the posts on this forum...).

It was you who said that you voted for Bust only because the other candidate was even worse. I know that my opinion does not diminish the "FACT" that you voted. It only makes me wonder where are all those competent, educated and open-minded people who know how to speak their own language.

Again, since no one in over two hundred years has ever even come close to being a totalitarian dictator while holding the office of the President, I don't see any relevance whatsoever to that question. But if someone as heinous as Hitler ever did become our leader, then it would really be more of an indication of the complete failure of our people, our legislators, our judges and finally our military... than in the man who became the dictator.

Obviously if that was Gainsbarre's intention by his hypothetical, he completly overstated the case as it applies to President Bush. So to answer your question: No, that would not be a reason to disrespect the office of the President -- it would be a reason to loose respect for ourselves.

I think that's a very good answer.

Bush cannot be compared to Hitler. That would be a very lame and very disrespectful comparison. I agree with you that Gainsbarre's question is not very "kosher", but I wouldn't call it irrelevant either. It was just a question. Whether there is any relevance to that or not, you accused him of comparing Bush to Hitler...something he didnt do.

You don't agree with everything Bush says or does, yet you voted for him. Yu respect hm as a presindent - because he is the president. You said you would respect even a president with whom you would not agree, m just because he would be ellected the president. Maybe Gainsbarre's question overstated the case that applies to Bush, but it IS revelavant when I consider what YOU said.

Just as it was the shame of the German people to loose respect for themselves for abondoning their democratic principals and following after a "messiah type" leader... who ended up leading them into the pit of hell.

Germans will never lose respect for themselves. Their history is too great and their gas stations are too nice and clean to make them lose and respect for their nation. This could happen to any country of any nation. There's no need to blame anyone for what happened. Important is to be able to learn from the past.

I don't know how to answer it any better than that.

Don't worry, you're doing a pretty good job.

[Del Zeppnile]

They also have no real power. It's only a honorable institution. It's importance lies only in the fact that it part of national identity. If you mock this institution, you most this part f national ientity. Think about it, Superhero.

I have been pretty much on record as being pro-British. Sure I argue with Brits from time to time, but my comments about the Royals have always been more "Pythonesque" than anything else.

I still think you overreacted.

The Thunderchief never overreacts... he just reacts.

No, I don't believe that a majority of Americans are idiots. You accused me from this in the past and you're accusing me from it now, too. I suppose that's the easiest argument you can come up with. If I thought what the majority or Americans are idiots, I wouldn't be studying Anglistics and Americanistics. That would be quite boring, and frustrating (although...sometimes I do find it frustrating; when I read some of the posts on this forum...).

I don't actually believe that YOU think that the majority of Americans are idiots in general. I was just asking if you thnk the ones who voted for Bush are idiots?

It was you who said that you voted for Bust only because the other candidate was even worse. I know that my opinion does not diminish the "FACT" that you voted. It only makes me wonder where are all those competent, educated and open-minded people who know how to speak their own language.

I don't get your point.

I think that's a very good answer...

...Don't worry, you're doing a pretty good job.

Now you're just trying to charm me again Kat.

[Medhb]

I have been pretty much on record as being pro-British. Sure I argue with Brits from time to time, but my comments about the Royals have always been more "Pythonesque" than anything else.

The Thunderchief never overreacts... he just reacts.

I don't actually believe that YOU think that the majority of Americans are idiots in general. I was just asking if you thnk the ones who voted for Bush are idiots?

I don't get your point.

Now you're just trying to charm me again Kat.

Ahhhhh.....she's charmed you before Del? Kat, you have a way of doing that!

[Del Zeppnile]

Ahhhhh.....she's charmed you before Del? Kat, you have a way of doing that!

Kat used to only annoy me, but then as she got a little older she learned how to use sexual tension to her complete advantage.

[Medhb]

Kat used to only annoy me, but then as she got a little older she learned how to use sexual tension to her complete advantage.

Smart girl

[Speed Racer]

IMO with the political scene as it is in the states. Not one single person should vote. Wonder if they would then get the message.

Wonder what would happen if nobody at all voted?

Would they bump the VP up?

[Electrophile]

How would having no one vote even remotely begin to fix anything that is wrong in this country?

[Speed Racer]

How would having no one vote even remotely begin to fix anything that is wrong in this country?

They would have to come up with new candidates. Our choices for the last few elections have made us look quite preposterous.

BTW. I never said it would fix anything. But they may take us in a different direction. Come on they spend 300 for toilet seats and hammers. Do you really believe a new president will fix anything

Edited July 26, 2008 by Speed Racer

[Electrophile]

So you think apathy is the answer? Wunderbar. Yeah, no.

[Speed Racer]

So you think apathy is the answer? Wunderbar. Yeah, no.

1. I've never heard of "Wunderbar."

2. The entire political structure in America needs revamped. Until then I vote and deal with it without obscessing.

"So you say you want a revolution?"

[Electrophile]

Wunderbar is German for "wonderful".

Edited July 26, 2008 by Electrophile

[Speed Racer]

Wunderbar is German for "wonderful".

English is common here...learn it. And get a dog to kick around or something. I as everyone else don't appreciate your attacks just to troll.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Speed Racer

[Electrophile]

English is common here...learn it.

I'll speak whatever language I like. If you don't like that, I really don't care. I was born here, so I speak English quite well. However, I also speak about 4 other languages. And if I want to use one of my familial tongues and say "wunderbar" I am going to.

So blow it out your ass.

[Speed Racer]

I'll speak whatever language I like. If you don't like that, I really don't care. I was born here, so I speak English quite well. However, I also speak about 4 other languages. And if I want to use one of my familial tongues and say "wunderbar" I am going to.

So blow it out your ass.

I see we have your usual eloquent nature. I don't have time to argue.

See husband

[Del Zeppnile]

Wunderbar is German for "wonderful".

Du haste Scheiss Gesicht

[Medhb]

Time for Nurse Ratchett to come in and dispense the meds...

OK, everyone...form a line!

[Del Zeppnile]

Time for Nurse Ratchett to come in and dispense the meds...

OK, everyone...form a line!

I've got your medicine 'head nurse'

Edited July 27, 2008 by Del Zeppnile

[SteveAJones]

No I don't believe it is thought provoking at all. It is a false analogy to compare the elected leader of a free and democratic society--- no matter how much one may disagrees with that leader, to a dictatorship. (edit)

I've said it before, Del has turned posting into an art form.