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Allegations of Plagiarism


LedNoodle

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Jimmy cops James Burton licks all over in the Whole Lotta Love jam on TSRTS soundtrack. Bach's Bouree during his Heartbreaker solo. Who invented the double-stop? "That's a Chuck Berry signature lick"! How far does it go? BTW, I think Chuck would be proud his licks were the foundation of rock and roll guitar (yep, that's me in there!)! Yngwie took from Uli. Randy Rhoads? Yada yada yada, and on it goes. Let it rest and be history.

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Back the truck up for a second. I never said what they did wasn't wrong. I will however reiterate what I said much earlier in this thread. All bands have in some way shape or form taken from those that have come before them. This is nothing new. To pigeonhole Led Zeppelin as the only band on Earth that has ever done this is doing them a huge disservice. Bands have been and will continue to do this as long as music is upon this planet. Unless some future generation comes out and makes an outright law that forbids bands from borrowing or even outright covering other bands this practice will continue.

Get off it already. Sheesh... :rolleyes:

First of all, my post was not aimed specifically at you; more to the people on this board who think the band can do no wrong. I never said they were the only band on Earth to do it; only that they didn't credit their influences as much as most bands did. How many of the fans who think Zeppelin is completely innocent of using uncredited lyrics really appreciate the older blues as a form of music on its own; not just something that existed as a means to form rock and roll? How many of you have bought a Howlin' Wolf or Elmore James cd (or LP), for the actual music, not just to hear what influenced the rock bands of the 60s? I think that if you really appreciated the blues as a separate genre from rock, you would understand where I'm coming from. Sorry, I'm not sure if this makes sense, but I hope you get my point.

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I never said they were the only band on Earth to do it; only that they didn't credit their influences as much as most bands did.

Yes, this is true. But I think it's a matter of degree. I think if you change something around enough, then you shouldn't have to credit anyone.

Of course a lot of the lyrics are pretty much the same in bits and pieces here and there.

When it comes to writing music, lyrics are the easiest to create. Why? Every person in the world has been talking their whole life, creating words, phrases, jokes, and poems. *All you have to do* is adapt your thoughts to music. I understand this is no small feat, but I give the "actual music" more weight because it requires a higher level of specialization.

Not everyone in the world plays guitar, piano, or drums, but you can bet everyone who can read/write/talk has had some formal training on the matter. If you can read/write/talk you already have all the tools you need to write lyrics. But if you want to make "actual music", then you need to go beyond your human body. You need an instrument, which is an extension of your body to express emotion.

Now I'm not talking about singing. That's more on the level of "actual music" because it involves intense practice and training with your own voice. In this case, YOU are the instrument.

I'm talking about thought, which is something (believe it or not) that we all use. Some people are coordinated enough to play an instrument, but I bet more people are coordinated enough to hold a pencil. If more people can read/write/talk than play an instrument, then it means that "actual music" is more rare and more valuable.

Honestly ask yourself: Do you think it would be easier for someone with no musical experience to write lyrics or to play a guitar?

...

So how does all of this relate to Led Zeppelin?

Basically, I don't really value lyrics as much as I do the "actual music". So when someone tells me that Led Zeppelin lifted so many lyrics from other sources and didn't credit them, I say, "WHY THE HELL SHOULD THEY?"

I don't care what the laws are. I don't think the laws are right. I believe that most ideas are not original, and that a person shouldn't be able to "own" them. Recognition is one thing and ownership is another. It just so happens that our current way of recognition is ownership. I think the laws are an attempt to control something that we truly can't describe or understand yet---> culture.

It's a decent system, but I think we can do better.

How many of the fans who think Zeppelin is completely innocent of using uncredited lyrics really appreciate the older blues as a form of music on its own; not just something that existed as a means to form rock and roll? How many of you have bought a Howlin' Wolf or Elmore James cd (or LP), for the actual music, not just to hear what influenced the rock bands of the 60s? I think that if you really appreciated the blues as a separate genre from rock, you would understand where I'm coming from. Sorry, I'm not sure if this makes sense, but I hope you get my point.

Well, yeah it makes perfect sense. You have some good points in there. I would say that most of us here are only into blues from what Led Zeppelin has exposed us to. I would expect the younger crowd to be even more true to that statement.

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Nothing has been achieved in this thread. These "allegations" are old hat. My listening patterns now and in the future are unlikely to change. Do I think any less of the band? Nope. Do I think any less of some posters here? You bet. I want my money back for the time wasted reading your posts. :D

And slowly becoming delirious. :wacko:

Yeah there's not much more to accomplish except the evolution in the ownership of ideas and how Led Zeppelin seemed to be a leader in this evolution, intentional or not.

...

WTF am I talking about? I know I sound crazy but that just means I lack the expertise to back up what I'm saying.

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I think you did a really good job. you just gave me a new way of looking at this.

Thanks :D

Hell yeah!

It's just so hard to explain my point of view to people because most popular music today is lyrically driven.

My personal taste is for guitar-driven rock. It doesn't seem as alive and well as it has been in the past.

Instead, many rock bands are opting for the whiny "long drawn out singing notes" sound. I really really really hate that stuff.

Is the guitar-army still marching or what?

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So how does all of this relate to Led Zeppelin?

Basically, I don't really value lyrics as much as I do the "actual music". So when someone tells me that Led Zeppelin lifted so many lyrics from other sources and didn't credit them, I say, "WHY THE HELL SHOULD THEY?"

I don't care what the laws are. I don't think the laws are right. I believe that most ideas are not original, and that a person shouldn't be able to "own" them. Recognition is one thing and ownership is another. It just so happens that our current way of recognition is ownership. I think the laws are an attempt to control something that we truly can't describe or understand yet---> culture.

It's a decent system, but I think we can do better.

Haha, well I don't want to get into an indictment of society, but we live in a capitalistic economy where if you have an idea, you have the ability to make money off of it. No matter how much talent it takes to create the idea. The alternative is Stalin or Mao Zedong, where everyone contributes to the "greater good", and we all know how that system turned out. If you start trying to draw the line at which ideas you are allowed to make money off of, and which you are not, it can get a little hazy. Either way, Jimmy Page took the Lemon Song riff right off of Howlin' Wolf.

If I sound angry at all, please don't take this the wrong way. You have a lot of good points, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

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  • 7 years later...

The common "stolen" songs:

 

Babe I'm Gonna Leave You-Credit was given and parts were origional.

 

Dazed and Confused-95% origional only similarities are droning main riff and title.

 

Black Mountainside-Traditional folk song that was turned intrumental by Page who also wrote a solo for it.

 

How Many More Times-Really a medley of classic blues songs like The Hunter.

 

Whole Lotta Love-Although sued by Willie Dixon the lyrics only bore a very SLIGHT similarity although it is an almost word for word copy of a Small Faces song. Music is all origional.

 

Lemon Song-A slowed down version of Killing Floor

 

Bring It On Home-A exact copy of a Willie Dixon song of the same name except for when the 12 bar blues section is over and the song picks up.

 

Moby Dick-Guitar bears a strong resembelance to a song that I cant remember as well as The Girl I love.

 

Rock and Roll-Drum line is from Little Richards Good Golly Miss Molly.

 

Stairway To Heaven-First few bars has a resemblance to Spirit's Taurus.

 

When The Levee Breaks-Lyrics are taken from a 30's blues song of the same name by Memphis Minnie.

 

Trample Underfoot-Lyrics have the same flow as The Doobie Brothers Long Train Runnin. Some say it's ripped off of Stevie Wonders Superstisious but thats total BS.

 

Boogie With Stu-A slowed down copy of Ooh My Head wich is a copy of Little Richards Ooh My Soul.

 

Nobody's Fault But Mine-Lyrics are taken from a traditional blues song.

 

I think thats it.

Billy Squire 'Everybody Wants You' - 1982

Jimmy Page 'Wasting My Time' - 1988

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  • 6 months later...
On 8/3/2008 at 11:28 AM, beatbo said:

i've been looking for this article for a few days now and finally found it. it has the most extensive coverage of 'hmmt' i've ever read. please click the link after you read and scroll to the bottom to see links to the albums/artists/and songs mentioned. on the right side is a list of zeppelin songs analyzed the same way.....

from turnmeondeadman.net

LED ZEPPELIN'S INFLUENCES

How Many More Times

"How Many More Times" from Led Zeppelin's debut album is perhaps the best example of Robert Plant's devotion to the blues, as he pays homage to several blues artists on this track. Led Astray, Led Zeppelin's Sources of Inspiration and Zeppelin Classics all include "How Many More Years" by Howlin' Wolf, and these compilations suggest that this is the source for "How Many More Times". Other than a basic blues structure and the three shared words in the title, however, these tracks have little in common. Led Zeppelin's Sources of Inspiration also points to Howlin' Wolf's "No Place to Go", also known as "You Gonna Wreck My Life", and this is actually a better point of reference for "How Many More Times", as the opening lines of this song ("How many more times, treat me the way you wanna do?/When I give you all my love, please, please be true/I'll give you all I've got to give, rings, pearls, and all/I've got to get you together baby, I'm sure, sure you're gonna crawl") echo "No Place to Go" ("How many times you gonna treat me like you do/You took all of my money and all of my love too"). "No Place to Go" also features a hypnotic walking bass line that is somewhat like the one John Paul Jones used in "How Many More Times," though less complex. Still, "How Many More Times" goes well beyond these Howlin' Wolf tracks. "How Many More Times" explores a number of musical themes and it draws from a variety of sources to produce one of Led Zeppelin's early classics, though not entirely free of issues of plagiarism.

In the lyrics, Robert Plant pays homage to several blues and folk artists. For the most part, the lyrics of "How Many More Times" allude to a number of recordings without copy them. One such source is the Weavers' song "Kisses Sweeter Than Wine," which was a hit for Jimmie Rodgers in 1957.

Well, when I was a young man never been kissed

I got to thinkin' it over how much I had missed

So I got me a girl and I kissed her and then, and then

Oh, lordy, well I kissed her again

Because she had kisses sweeter than wine

 

Well I asked her to marry and to be my sweet wife

I told her we'd be so happy for the rest of our life

I begged and I pleaded like a natural man

And then, whoops oh lordy, well she gave me her hand

Because she had kisses sweeter than wine

 

Well we worked very hard both me and my wife

Workin' hand-in-hand to have a good life

We had corn in the field and wheat in the bin

And then, whoops oh lord, I was the father of twins

Because she had kisses sweeter than wine

 

Well our children they numbered just about four

And they all had a sweetheart a-knockin' on the door

They all got married and they wouldn't hesitate

I was, whoops oh lord, the grandfather of eight

Because she had kisses sweeter than wine

 

Well now that I'm old and I'm a-ready to go

I get to thinkin' what happened a long time ago

Had a lot of kids, a lot of trouble and pain

But then, whoops oh lordy, well I'd do it all again

Because she had kisses sweeter than wine

This is most likely the inspiration for the spoken interlude in "How Many More Times" but Robert Plant's lyrics go their own way, including a reference to Sonny Boy Williamson's "Good Morning Little School Girl."

I was a young man, I couldn't resist

Started thinkin' it all over, just what I had missed

Got me a girl and I kissed her and then, and then

Whoops, oh Lordy, well I did it again

Now I got ten children of my own

I got another child on the way that makes eleven

But I'm in constant heaven

I know it's all right in my mind

'Cause I got a little schoolgirl and she's all mine

I can't get through to her 'cause it doesn't permit

But I'm gonna give her everything I've got to give

Where Robert Plant paid homage to "Kisses Sweeter Than Wine" without excessively quoting the song, the same cannot be said for his use of lyrics from Albert King's 1967 song "The Hunter", which was written by the members of Booker T. & the MGs. "The Hunter" opens with the lines:

They call me the hunter, that's my name

A pretty woman like you, is my only game

I bought me a love gun, just the other day

And I aim to aim it your way

Ain't no use to hide, ain't no use to run

'Cause I've got you in the sights of my love gun

Here Robert Plant makes only slight variations from the original:

Well they call me the hunter, that's my name

They call me the hunter, that's how I got my fame

Ain't no need to hide, Ain't no need to run

'Cause I've got you in the sights of my gun

From there "How Many More Times ventures into "O Rosie" and "Steal Away". British blues artist Alexis Korner recorded tracks with these titles in the late-1960s. In fact, Robert Plant co-wrote a song called "Steal Away" with Alexis Korner and Steve Miller, which the three of them recorded in 1968. Korner's "O Rosie" is credited as "Trad. Arr. Korner". Both of these tracks are available on Alexis Korner - On the Move. In "How Many More Times" Robert Plant may have been tipping his cap to Alexis Korner, but "O Rosie" and "Steal Away" are in turn references to field recordings made by Alan Lomax in the southern United States. "O Rosie" is a prison work song Alan Lomax recorded at Parchman Farm in the late 1940s and included on Prison Songs: Historical Recordings from Parchman Farm 1947-48, Volume 2, which is part of the Alan Lomax collection on the Rounder label. This collection contains "O Rosie" along with another song called "Rosie", not to mention that a couple of other tracks refer to Rosie in the lyrics. The liner notes for this collection explain that Rosie was the female name most frequently used in work songs (even a song called "Katy Left Memphis" mentions Rosie). At least one version of "O Rosie" called simply "Rosie" recorded by Alan Lomax had been released well before Led Zeppelin I. "Rosie" was included in a collection of Lomax recordings called Negro Prison Songs that was released in 1957. Lomax had made the recordings in 1947 and 1948 but their release was delayed by a decade because Lomax was critical of the brutality of the prison labor system in the South. Lomax's original motivation for recording in prisons is that he thought these places most closely replicated the conditions of slavery. What he found instead was a distinct style of work song. I'm not clear on what reforms had been made between 1948 and 1957 that made the release of these tapes any less controversial—it wasn't until 1972 that Parchman Farm was demolished—but apparently many of the worst aspects of the prison labor system were being reformed in the years after World War II. It's safe to say that these reforms went hand in hand with the gains of the civil rights movement. The liner notes for Prison Songs: Historical Recordings from Parchman Farm 1947-48, Volume 2 say that as late as the 1970s Lomax managed to find ex-prisoners who were still able to sing "Rosie", indicating that this was one of the most common of the prison work songs.

"Steal Away" is a spiritual that can be found on a Rounder CD that contains more Lomax field recordings called Negro Religious Songs and Services. "Steal Away" dates back to the time of slavery and expresses a desire for deliverance from bondage and a strong Christian faith. This song has remained a part of African-American religious practice and has been widely recorded over the years. "Steal Away" was also one of the "freedom songs", music used to inspire activists in the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s.

The closing refrain of "How Many More Times" contains even more references to blues songs. The line "barrelhouse all night long" comes from Robert Johnson's "Traveling Riverside Blues", which Led Zeppelin performed in live sets. "Traveling Riverside Blues" is the source of the line "You can squeeze my lemon 'til the juice run down my leg", which Plant worked into "The Lemon Song" on Led Zeppelin II, and the version of "How Many More Times" on BBC Sessions includes a break where Plant quotes the lemon reference from "Traveling Riverside Blues" as well. "How Many More Times" closes with the line "I've got to get to you, baby, baby, please come home," which appears to be a reference to Bessie Smith's "Baby Won't You Please Come Home". "How Many More Times" pays homage to these blues classics without relying too heavily on them, and these references only add to the aura of this song.

An interesting point of reference for Led Zeppelin's "How Many More Times" is a song by the same title recorded in 1964 by the British beat band Gary Farr and the T-Bones. This song is essentially a rewrite of Howlin' Wolf's "No Place to Go" with only minor variations in the lyrics. Led Zeppelin would probably have heard this song and it may have had some influence on them in writing their own "How Many More Times," but Led Zeppelin's work was much more original. In general, it's not accurate to say that Howlin' Wolf was the source for "How Many More Times". Though Robert Plant had clearly listened to Howlin' Wolf, he did not make substantial lifts from his material for "How Many More Times". Booker T. & the MGs, however, should have given songwriting credits for Plant's extensive use of lyrics from "The Hunter". Also, for his part, Jimmy Page engaged in a little borrowing in this track—and this involves an indirect connection to Howlin' Wolf. As Will Shade points out, the bass line from "How Many More Years" follows the Yardbirds' cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Smokestack Lightning" closely. [1] This is particularly evident on the Yardbirds' BBC Sessions collection. The significant thing here is that the Yardbirds recorded this in December, 1965—well before Jimmy Page joined the band.

link

Many thanks, Beatbo, for posting this.  I found this page googling HMMT lawsuit 1993 because it's mentioned by the lawyer the Randy Wolfe Trust used in the latest frivolities.  The lawyer mentions HMMT in his brief, and it just didn't make any sense to me that they had credited anybody, given the multitude of references Plant makes, and the fact that the main bass line is something different (Smokestack Lightening, though its not really Smokestack Lightening, is it?).  I had also never found any source for the "Oh Rosie" bit, and here it is finally, above.  

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