The Ossetian Conflic

[sweetangel578]

It's no secret that the US has supported the Georgian military so that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. It's one of the perks when you 'join the team'

Of course he would omb Iran if there was a threat to WORLD security! And I would hope the Russian government would JOIN us in that war! Russia stands as much of a chance of being nuked by Iran as it does by the US, possibly more. All we want to do is protect our ourselves from our self proclaimed enemies who will not live in peace until we are destroyed. No one is saying that to the people in Russia. Aren't you blissfully lucky in that way?

I think sometimes you create these problems/enemies yourself....

Russia and Iran have traditionally had good relations.

[BIGDAN]

Replace?

According to who? Why should a few select countries be allowed to tell the whole world what to do? Thats totalitarian and its anti-democratic

Hey, they were free to try and stop us. They didn't. We did what we could to eleimate the chance of getting nuked. Should we have allowed it?

Look 'wanna be drummer' I thought we were having a good debate here, now stop all this bullshit argueing with me before it gets personal. You either dont know what you are talking about or you are trying to wind people up, come on what is it?

Regards Danny

[sweetangel578]

Hi 'Medhb'

Lets take a step back here and regroup. I am English, we are from Viking decent, you know rape and pillage. When I see my fellow country men carrying on with these traditions it dont make excuses for their behavior, I condem it.

We as allies and friends, US and UK, must set a better example to the world, not only as people but as governments, and I dont think we do that. We act in the same way as the people we condem, thats the irony.

As for comparing Putin with Bush, I would say that the Russian Politicians do it in the open and are not worried about the world knowing what they do, whereas Bush and many western governments do the same but covertly, it makes us just the same as them, and that is what I can't stomach, double standards. Your governments may have learnt a lot of your foreigh policy from Great Britain and it dosen't work in the long run as people become aware what you are doing in their countries becomes apparent, and then they become violent and want you out. History is always repeating itself. We are going from one conflict to another without ever winning anything. And the only people who win are the Politicians and their friends who are tied up in arms deals and oil companies. Lets all stay friends and find something more enjoyable to talk about, like it's Roberts Birthday.

Regards, Danny

PS. And by taking over from the UK as the worlds policemen, you will the same amount of thanks as we did, nothing, good luck Americia as you will need a lot of it.

Good speech.

World's only problem today is that we don't learn form our own mistakes.

Peace to all of you

[wanna be drummer]

Look 'wanna be drummer' I thought we were having a good debate here, now stop all this bullshit argueing with me before it gets personal. You dont know what you are talking about or you are trying to wind people up, come on what is it?

Regards Danny

What are you talking about? My last post was pretty calm...I was serious the whole time and no I'm not trying to wind you up by any means...

[BIGDAN]

Good speech.

World's only problem today is that we don't learn form our own mistakes.

Peace to all of you

Totaly agree with you on that one, :beer:

[Uncle Bill]

I think sometimes you create these problems/enemies yourself....

Russia and Iran have traditionally had good relations.

If this was the case, why did your government side with Saddam Hussein in the Iraq- Iran war? Why did the Iranians side with us, against you, during the Pahlavi era?

[marolyn]

I am a true believer of freedom for all people and happen to be a near distant cousin of Abraham Lincoln.

which is it?...near or distant?

[BIGDAN]

What are you talking about? My last post was pretty calm...I was serious the whole time and no I'm not trying to wind you up by any means...

Sorry mate if you were being serious, but you are not argueing like that, you are no fool but you must be able to see that I would just laugh at your last post to me

"Replace?" Yes, what would you replace it with?, if you mean nothing then say "Nothing."

"According to who? Why should a few select countries be allowed to tell the whole world what to do? Thats totalitarian and its anti-democratic" According to both your's and my and everybody elses governments that joined. It was a democratic process, and it isnt just a few select countries that tell the world what to do, it is open to all to vote on it, that's what we call democracy.

"Hey, they were free to try and stop us. They didn't. We did what we could to eleimate the chance of getting nuked. Should we have allowed it?" This is what you are not understanding, it's double standards.

Regards Danny

[Uncle Bill]

Look 'wanna be drummer' I thought we were having a good debate here, now stop all this bullshit argueing with me before it gets personal. You dont know what you are talking about or you are trying to wind people up, come on what is it?

Regards Danny

I don't see any "bull shit [argueing] " or "winding people up" by wannabe, his opinion is just as valid as any. If anyone here doesn't know what they are talking about it's you, you don't seem capable of staying on topic. This thread is about the conflict in Georgia. All of your posts seem to turn into anti US rants, we get it ok?

[wanna be drummer]

Sorry mate if you were being serious, but you are not argueing like that, you are no fool but you must be able to see that I would just laugh at your last post to me

No worries

Yes, what would you replace it with?, if you mean nothing then say "Nothing."

Nothing...

According to both your's and my and everybody elses governments that joined. It was a democratic process, and it isnt just a few select countries that tell the world what to do, it is open to all to vote on it, that's what we call democracy.

It may be an open vote, but the smaller countries don't have a real say. They do what the powerhouses do. Countries should not be chained down to international law.

This is what you are not understanding, it's double standards.

And you are missing my point. In war, would you say it is double standards to bomb the hell out of an enemy tank factory, but that same country prevents the enemy from doing the same to them? No, it's looking out for their best interests. Thats what we did. We were doing what benefitted us. Did it screw the Soviet Union? Yes. I have no problem with that seeing as how the government was batshit insane.

Regards Danny

cheers

[sweetangel578]

If this was the case, why did your government side with Saddam Hussein in the Iraq- Iran war? Why did the Iranians side with us, against you, during the Pahlavi era?

Sorry, I probably should have made time limits... Post-Soviet era, I would say. We have very good trading relations including military arsenal and if I'm not wrong Russia has been helping in contruction of the nuclear reactor. Moreover, we share the same interest in limiting the control of the USA in Central Asia. Yes, we have our misunderstandings, but in general I believe our relations are good now.

[BIGDAN]

I don't see any "bull shit [argueing] " or "winding people up" by wannabe, his opinion is just as valid as any. If anyone here doesn't know what they are talking about it's you, you don't seem capable of staying on topic. This thread is about the conflict in Georgia. All of your posts seem to turn into anti US rants, we get it ok?

Hi 'Uncle Bill'

Well well, I'm just trying to bring some focus to the issues here and I get branded anti US.

Well I aint Pro US by any means, in fact I think your government stinks, as mine does. I was getting fed up with all the Russian bashing and thought that the US citizens who we doing the most of it needed to be put straight on a few things. Some of you guys saw what I was trying to achieve, others like yourself didn't.

I dont only bash the US, I bash all governments who act unlawfully, wether it's the US,UK or Russia, they have/are all behave badly about the Georgian conflict even Georgia itself.

We all have our opinions, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, when are you going to tell the truth about your own country like I have about mine? Or cant you do that because of blind loyalty to the flag or something?

So I dont know what I'm talking about ah? So I better shut up then and say nothing ah?

Like only you know what is right and wrong ah? Well all I can say to you is this, this is getting far too personal, and you aint gonna bully me like your country bullies the rest of the world.

Regards, Danny

[Uncle Bill]

Sorry, I probably should have made time limits... Post-Soviet era, I would say. We have very good trading relations including military arsenal and if I'm not wrong Russia has been helping in contruction of the nuclear reactor. Moreover, we share the same interest in limiting the control of the USA in Central Asia. Yes, we have our misunderstandings, but in general I believe our relations are good now.

You said "traditionally" not lately.

I agree that your government is cozy with Iran at the moment in a my enemy's enemy is my friend sort of way.

[Uncle Bill]

Hi 'Uncle Bill'

Well well, I'm just trying to bring some focus to the issues here and I get branded anti US.

You started the shit slinging by saying wannabe didn't know what he was talking about, I just pointed out not all agree who here is full of it. Have a nice day (in honor of those no longer with us)

[BIGDAN]

No worries

Nothing...

It may be an open vote, but the smaller countries don't have a real say. They do what the powerhouses do. Countries should not be chained down to international law.

And you are missing my point. In war, would you say it is double standards to bomb the hell out of an enemy tank factory, but that same country prevents the enemy from doing the same to them? No, it's looking out for their best interests. Thats what we did. We were doing what benefitted us. Did it screw the Soviet Union? Yes. I have no problem with that seeing as how the government was batshit insane.

cheers

I'll drink to that with you mate,

But It wasn't war, it was diplomacy, and it's still double standards. Buy taking out all the opposition you will be left as the winner, with no one else to fight you will implode, and thats scarry.

Oops going off topic again, sorry "uncle bill"

Regards, Danny

[wanna be drummer]

I'll drink to that with you mate,

But It wasn't war, it was diplomacy, and it's still double standards. Buy taking out all the opposition you will be left as the winner, with no one else to fight you will implode, and thats scarry.

Oops going off topic again, sorry "uncle bill"

Regards, Danny

It wasn't war? Not all wars are fought with sticks and stones my friend...

And as far as imploding goes, we've been fine since then have we not?

[BIGDAN]

It wasn't war? Not all wars are fought with sticks and stones my friend...

And as far as imploding goes, we've been fine since then have we not?

War starts when diplomacy fails, so it wasn't war.

And it aint over till the fat lady sings, and she has laryngitis at the moment.

[wanna be drummer]

War starts when diplomacy fails, so it wasn't war.

And it aint over till the fat lady sings, and she has laryngitis at the moment.

I don't agree, simple as that.

[BIGDAN]

You started the shit slinging by saying wannabe didn't know what he was talking about, I just pointed out not all agree who here is full of it. Have a nice day (in honor of those no longer with us)

Hi 'Uncle Bill'

Sorry for the missunderstanding and I fully accept your apology, even if there wasn't one.

"You either dont know what you are talking about or you are trying to wind people up, come on what is it?" Is what I said.

I thought it was one or the other, I may have gotten it wrong with wannabe so I apologise now for any misconception in my statement.

Regards Danny

[Medhb]

Sorry, I probably should have made time limits... Post-Soviet era, I would say. We have very good trading relations including military arsenal and if I'm not wrong Russia has been helping in contruction of the nuclear reactor. Moreover, we share the same interest in limiting the control of the USA in Central Asia. Yes, we have our misunderstandings, but in general I believe our relations are good now.

Hi Angel, and don't you think that we are just as concerned about Russia selling military arsenals and helping them construct nuclear reactors concerns the American PEOPLE as much as the American Government? I just don't understand why Russia would do that when everyone knows that Iran is NOT using nuclear reactors for power...they just want to build bombs. Do we really need more countries with nuclear bombs?

[wanna be drummer]

The enemty of my enemy is my friend as Bill posted earlier. Thats what its all about

[sweetangel578]

Hi Angel, and don't you think that we are just as concerned about Russia selling military arsenals and helping them construct nuclear reactors concerns the American PEOPLE as much as the American Government? I just don't understand why Russia would do that when everyone knows that Iran is NOT using nuclear reactors for power...they just want to build bombs. Do we really need more countries with nuclear bombs?

They have a point too. If you were in their position, wouldn't you wanna nuclear bombs to balance America? They are as afraid of what you are going to do to them as you are afraid of them using those bombs. To be honest, arms selling always concerns me, whether it's Russia selling or whoever else...I can ask you the same question now - why was America selling arms to Georgia knowing that there is an ongoing conflict in that region and those arms would be used some day?

[Uncle Bill]

Traditionally, the Russians and Iranians have been enemy's going back to the Russian Empire vs the Persian Empire days. And continuing through WW2 when the Soviets joined with Britain in invading even though Iran declared neutrality. And continued through the Shah's days, when the Iranians sided with us.. And continued during the Iran/Iraq war, where the Soviets supported Saddam Hussein. It's only now, lately, that they are trying to cooperate in their opposition of us, as sweetangel stated.

From this story titled "Russia and Iran Unfriendly friends"

"It is possible, of course, that Russia will continue to ship atomic fuel to Iran even if Tehran continues to insist on enriching uranium itself. And there have been other occasions when Moscow has denied it was considering the sale of a particular weapon system to a given country only to go ahead and sell it or a similar one to that country later on. But whether or not these issues are resolved, the fact that these -- and other -- Russian-Iranian disagreements have occurred reflects a larger problem in their relations that is unlikely to be resolved.

Both Russia and Iran have prickly regimes that much prefer to defy America and the West than to cooperate with them. But while this would seemingly give Moscow and Tehran an incentive to cooperate with each other, the prickliness of each of them makes this extremely difficult.

In addition, the two sides have very different views about how much each needs the other. Understanding that Iran regards America as its primary opponent, Moscow sees Tehran as dependent on Russia for support and protection against it. From the Russian viewpoint, then, Tehran should be willing to make concessions to Moscow -- such as agreeing to allow Russia to supply all of Iran's atomic fuel, and renouncing all efforts to enrich uranium itself.

Tehran, though, sees things quite differently. Iran has had troubled relations with Russia for far longer than with America, and there is deep distrust for Russia even among Iranians who distrust the United States. Iranians who see themselves as successfully defying the world's greatest power -- America -- see no reason why they should make concessions to Russia, which they view as a much lesser power.

Besides, Tehran strongly suspects that if it ever really came under serious threat of attack from the United States, Russia would do nothing to help Iran. This, of course, only further reduces the incentives for Iran to make any sort of concession to Moscow. Indeed, many in Tehran see Russia as needing to make concessions to Iran for fear of risking the loss of Iranian business to China, India, Europe, or even America (which many in Iran -- perhaps over optimistically -- see as dependent on Tehran if it hopes to pacify Iraq and Afghanistan).

What this suggests is that while neither Russia nor Iran is willing to cooperate with America and the West, they are not willing to cooperate with each other either. This actually presents an opportunity for America to take advantage of -- if only Washington recognized it as such. "

[Medhb]

They have a point too. If you were in their position, wouldn't you wanna nuclear bombs to balance America? They are as afraid of what you are going to do to them as you are afraid of them using those bombs. To be honest, arms selling always concerns me, whether it's Russia selling or whoever else...I can ask you the same question now - why was America selling arms to Georgia knowing that there is an ongoing conflict in that region and those arms would be used some day?

There is a big difference between arms and nuclear reactors....I can't justify my governments decision - I would guess for defense, can you justify yours?

edited for clairity

[Medhb]

Traditionally, the Russians and Iranians have been enemy's going back to the Russian Empire vs the Persian Empire days. And continuing through WW2 when the Soviets joined with Britain in invading even though Iran declared neutrality. And continued through the Shah's days, when the Iranians sided with us.. And continued during the Iran/Iraq war, where the Soviets supported Saddam Hussein. It's only now, lately, that they are trying to cooperate in their opposition of us, as sweetangel stated.

From this story titled "Russia and Iran Unfriendly friends"

"It is possible, of course, that Russia will continue to ship atomic fuel to Iran even if Tehran continues to insist on enriching uranium itself. And there have been other occasions when Moscow has denied it was considering the sale of a particular weapon system to a given country only to go ahead and sell it or a similar one to that country later on. But whether or not these issues are resolved, the fact that these -- and other -- Russian-Iranian disagreements have occurred reflects a larger problem in their relations that is unlikely to be resolved.

Both Russia and Iran have prickly regimes that much prefer to defy America and the West than to cooperate with them. But while this would seemingly give Moscow and Tehran an incentive to cooperate with each other, the prickliness of each of them makes this extremely difficult.

In addition, the two sides have very different views about how much each needs the other. Understanding that Iran regards America as its primary opponent, Moscow sees Tehran as dependent on Russia for support and protection against it. From the Russian viewpoint, then, Tehran should be willing to make concessions to Moscow -- such as agreeing to allow Russia to supply all of Iran's atomic fuel, and renouncing all efforts to enrich uranium itself.

Tehran, though, sees things quite differently. Iran has had troubled relations with Russia for far longer than with America, and there is deep distrust for Russia even among Iranians who distrust the United States. Iranians who see themselves as successfully defying the world's greatest power -- America -- see no reason why they should make concessions to Russia, which they view as a much lesser power.

Besides, Tehran strongly suspects that if it ever really came under serious threat of attack from the United States, Russia would do nothing to help Iran. This, of course, only further reduces the incentives for Iran to make any sort of concession to Moscow. Indeed, many in Tehran see Russia as needing to make concessions to Iran for fear of risking the loss of Iranian business to China, India, Europe, or even America (which many in Iran -- perhaps over optimistically -- see as dependent on Tehran if it hopes to pacify Iraq and Afghanistan).

What this suggests is that while neither Russia nor Iran is willing to cooperate with America and the West, they are not willing to cooperate with each other either. This actually presents an opportunity for America to take advantage of -- if only Washington recognized it as such. "

Nice, quality post Uncle Bill