moose351 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Haha! And yeah, find a photo of Jimmy in 1977 with a pickup cover off. Oh well, I won't argue. You can see by the look of my 02' faded standard, that I'm desperate to own Custom Shop JP. Assuming that the faded series are made at the Gibson factory, they did a good job of mine. Sounds wicked with the Burstbuckers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Oh well, I won't argue. You can see by the look of my 02' faded standard, that I'm desperate to own Custom Shop JP. Assuming that the faded series are made at the Gibson factory, they did a good job of mine. Sounds wicked with the Burstbuckers. There's a difference between "arguing" and discussion. A peaceful and friendly exchange of facts and knowledge needn't be an argument. Yeah, I love BurstBuckers! The "bumblebee" caps on the Historics actually do make a subtle difference too IMO. In fact, I have the original BurstBuckers from the LP I put the EMGs in. Anyone interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose351 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Oh well, I won't argue. You can see by the look of my 02' faded standard, that I'm desperate to own Custom Shop JP. Assuming that the faded series are made at the Gibson factory, they did a good job of mine. Sounds wicked with the Burstbuckers. Which guitar had the zebra pickup. I've seem shots of it, but can't remember which guitar it was. Was it No1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Which guitar had the zebra pickup. I've seem shots of it, but can't remember which guitar it was. Was it No1. The bridge pickups were changed out several times. Jimmy says it was from the bowing busting the covers off. I don't know which came first. That's a HUW question, lol! Gotta love that guy! Respect the HUW! Oh, yeah, Number One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose351 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 The bridge pickups were changed out several times. Jimmy says it was from the bowing busting the covers off. I don't know which came first. That's a HUW question, lol! Gotta love that guy! Respect the HUW! Oh, yeah, Number One. I'm new here........... Who's HUW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swandown Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Correct as pointed out above. Jimmy purchased it from Joe. Pretty sure Jimmy didn't purchase it, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 1977 Acoustic Set Posted August 15, 2008 Author Share Posted August 15, 2008 Pretty sure Jimmy didn't purchase it, either. I read in a magazine article a few years back, probably Guitar World, that Jimmy did purchase it for $500 from Joe and that was straight from Jimmy's mouth. It is also interesting to note that the neck was shaved before Jimmy had it. Joe probably didn't like the thin neck profile and said, "here have this one Jimmy!" Most Les Paul aficionados prefer a fatter neck profile. I am obsessed with Les Pauls and Jimmy. You guys are right that all of these articles contradict themselves about whether or not it's a '58 or '59. Most of that stems from a 1980's article with Jimmy's guitar tech at the time. That article is loaded with wrong info. All of the recent articles, mostly to do with the Jimmy Page Custom Shop Replica have stated that it is indeed a 1959. Let's keep looking for picts with Joe using Jimmy's #1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 1977 Acoustic Set Posted August 15, 2008 Author Share Posted August 15, 2008 Which guitar had the zebra pickup. I've seem shots of it, but can't remember which guitar it was. Was it No1. The one with Zebra's was made for Jimmy in the early '90's by the Gibson Custom Shop. It was used as a back up on the Unledded show. He played it for "Thank You." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chef free Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 They're switched on that one. And if you pull out the centerfold in the very same publication's "Most Valuable Guitars" it says "Jimmy's 1958 Number One Les Paul". That magazine has contradicted itself on several occasions, and even issued corrections from the editor. I'll take the word of a Gibson Custon Shop luthier over a rock magazine thanks. Jimmy's Number One has a shaved neck. That's when the serial number was sanded off. Number Two has a normal neck and a serial number. The Gibson Signature model has a modified neck. That would be cause enough to dispute Guitar World. If you feel the need to go deeper, Jimmy's Tom Murphy aged replica has nicks in the finish that were on Jimmy's main guitar years before he bought Number Two. His main guitar was always Number One. By comparison, Number Two is nearly flawless as he hardly used it but for a backup if he broke a string, as he did in 1973 with his Cherry Red Les Paul which was his backup before he bought Number Two. Family portrait circa 1977. Note Number Two missing its pickup cover. Clearly the Oakland Coliseum, I've seen many a show there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 1977 Acoustic Set Posted August 15, 2008 Author Share Posted August 15, 2008 I am sorry the article is wrong. Jimmy's guitars have been thoroughly researched by several members here and other forums. #2 is definitely a 59, based on the serial number, which is available. It also wasn't his main guitar from '75 on. Edit: Damn, Ev typed faster than me again! They are both 1959's. Look at the RAH video in 1970. Jimmy removed the bridge pickup cover. The pickup is a 'double white' in color. Double whites were used starting in mid 1959 due to a lack of black colored plastic by the manufacturer. Later when that pickup failed in Australia 1972, Jimmy put in a 1970's T top pickup with a crome cover. You will notice that the crome cover is much more shiney than the neck nickel cover and you can see this in photos for the rest of the 70's. He changed the bridge pickup again sometime in the late '80s to an all black pickup. Presumably a 1950's PAF. The #2 that was used in 1975 had both covers removed reveiling double white PAF pickups which confirms it is a 1959. This guitar was used for Kashmir, sometimes OTHAFA and as a spare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 1977 Acoustic Set Posted August 15, 2008 Author Share Posted August 15, 2008 Not a reliable quote. That's the serial number of Number Two. That guitar still sports the number to this day. Number 1 has no number on the peghead, hence the years of debate. Further, there is no difference between a 58 and 59 headstock. The same misinformation was on LZ.org when I used to post there. The only differences between a 57 and a 59 are the switch to a center-split matched top and the transistion from Goldtop to sunburst. Jimmy's falls right in between during the transition. *edit to add* Leave it HUW to get there right ahead of me! Just to clarify, that is not the only difference between years. Up through 1958 and even early 1959 the neck profile was large. Sometime in 1959 Gibson thinned the profile a little. And then in mid 1960, they thinned the neck profile down even more. My source is a book called Beauty of the Burst. As well as the fact that Gibson Historic Les Paul neck profiles reflect the year it was modeled after and I have owned several. '58's are big, '59's are smaller, and '60's are thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 I'm new here........... Who's HUW? Depends who you ask... Some say he's really an old member of the Zeppelin road crew... Some say he's been trapped in the Gibson factory since the '50s and can only communicate with the world via a computer he built from left over Norlin-era electronics... Some say he's this missing-link librarian guy, moving between the Les Paul Forum, The Hotel, most of the Zep websites, and a few other places besides... My wife says he's an over-educated-muso-geek who spends too much time thinking about Jimmy Page's guitars... Me - I think he's a new father who doesn't get as much time to be on line as he used to, but would be amused to death to see how many times he's been quoted already in a thread he hasn't posted in yet... When SAJ is quoting me, & Ev is giving up the respect (right back at you, BTW ) it's a good day So enough gabbing - have I anything to add to the thread? 1) No ideas whatsoever about #1 before Walsh sold it to JP/ 2) The guitar with the zebra pickup was indeed the original guitar Gibson's custom shop (in the person of Roger Giffen) made for Jimmy as a great-grandpa-prototype of the original Page sig model back in the early 90's. I don't think it still has the uncovered zebra, but to be honest that guitar doesn't get out much so it's hard to tell. However it wasn't used on Thank You off "Unledded" - that was the cherry red from 1970, with added b-bender. 3) Selling price was $500, confirmed by both Jimmy & Joe 4) Guitar World? Don't get me started... 5) As quoted by SAJ above, the #1 is sometimes thought of as "the '58", but the clues all say "it's a '59". As Ev pointed out, the uber-geeks on the LPF (& I can call them that because I'm talking about me & my friends... ) are pretty consistent on that one. I call it #1, or "the 5X". 6) The "great confusion", as I call it (which guitar is which, which one is the Walsh guitar, what year each is etc basically comes down to two things, IMNSHO (that would be IMHO but I've had a beer ): pickup covers, & Tim Marten. Covers: Because #1 & #2 have both had open coil double white pickups at the bridge at one time (never the same time) some folks mix them up. Once they're mixed, facts that belong with one guitar get attached to the other guitar. To recap - #1 had both covers on when Jimmy got it, but by the end of the year had gone to open coil. In 1972 that pickup failed & was replaced by one with a chrome cover. In 1988 an open coil double black appears & is still there. #2 showed up in 1975 with a double white & stayed like that until 1982 (possibly 81) when the cover reappeared. Stays like that until the O2 gig when it reverts to double white open coil. Hey isn't this fun! Tim Martin: After a lot of looking into this issue I've come to the conclusion that he is the only person ever to say #1 was a '58 as a direct source - every time since has been a recycling of his original statements. He said it twice, once to Guitar Heroes mag in 1982, & once in 1986 to the GW guys. Those two interviews, because they covered the gear more than Jimmy tends to do, have been quoted, recycled, & rerun - sometimes not even accurately - so the "58" thing has spread. Just my 2c, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatbo Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 fantastic post..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm new here........... Who's HUW? Well Moose, THAT would be HUW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose351 Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Well Moose, THAT would be HUW! Yes........... Thanks HUW. Are you the go to man for Zep facts? I've been a Zep nut since a was a kid. I feel like a bit of a newbie on here though. Careful about what I say.............. I thought I knew something............... that's why I said to Evester that I wouldn't argue. Sort of feels like i've been neutered. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose351 Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Yes........... Thanks HUW. Are you the go to man for Zep facts? I've been a Zep nut since a was a kid. I feel like a bit of a newbie on here though. Careful about what I say.............. I thought I knew something............... that's why I said to Evester that I wouldn't argue. Sort of feels like i've been neutered. LOL I'm sure I've seen a photo from the 70's of No1 or No2 with zebra bridge pickup.......... I'm determined to find the pic amongst my Zep stuff. Again, I'm not arguing, just adding my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 But seriously... I don't think that I know anything that isn't known by lots of folks with the same interests. In fact, there are many people whose "specialist topics" are much wider than mine (for instance on this forum both SAJ & Evster), so overall I would never claim to be anymore than middle ranking on the "factoid-meter". But, for one reason or another, my interests in Zeppelin, & my interests in guitars (Les Pauls in particular) converge on Jimmy's guitars, so I soak it up from all sources, learn from the best, put it all together & find out what fits & what contradicts. As an example - the idea that one of Jim's guitars is a 1958 causes lots of contradictions in the stories. The idea that they are both 1959's can produce a clear cut story of all the guitars without contradictions. It gets long & involved & we can discuss any number of tiny points at great length (funfunfun!) but we get there in the end... Most important is to enjoy the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm sure I've seen a photo from the 70's of No1 or No2 with zebra bridge pickup.......... I'm determined to find the pic amongst my Zep stuff. Again, I'm not arguing, just adding my point. The Black Beauty LP Custom, as used at RAH & later stolen had a zebra amongst it's three pickups: ...but as far as I know neither #1 nor #2 has ever sported an (uncovered) zebra. Happy to be proven wrong, as always, but this is one of those things I feel pretty safe on. Anyway, I don't know why but talking about a zebra - ie a black & white pickup - made me think of this again... Spot the difference: The first is Jimmy Page, live in 1975 with #2 - note the exposed white pickup. The second is the same picture photoshoped by Gibson's ad dept to publicise the Page signature model (based on #1) - note how Jimmy has had a new pickup installed in a split-second on-stage move... ...or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatbo Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 two more..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose351 Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 two more..... I wonder why I've been so sure about it all these years. That's why I was so happy to see the Burstbuckers in zebra. Maybe I've just been deluded all this time. Dunno. I'm happy with my paul though dispite the fact that it's now been explained that he never had zebras in No1 or No2 until the 90's. Bubble's been burst a little. I'll just have to continue to fool myself into thinking that I've got my own jimmy special. Hopefully I can prove you wrong. For my own sanity. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Yes........... Thanks HUW. Are you the go to man for Zep facts? I've been a Zep nut since a was a kid. I feel like a bit of a newbie on here though. Careful about what I say.............. I thought I knew something............... that's why I said to Evester that I wouldn't argue. Sort of feels like i've been neutered. LOL I hope I didn't rub you the wrong way Moose. It wasn't my intention at all. I just get enthusiastic. It could be said that we all have our areas that we know better about stuff. HUW is the resident Les Paul master. I, being a guitarist and gearhound for 30+ years can get you 90%, but defer to HUW when I've reached the limit of my knowledge. You've also got your hardcore bootologists. I modded the boots forum on another board for a couple of years, and have many, but I wouldn't presume to compete with the real core guys. Then you've got the clothesologists, the hairologists, etc. (e.g. "Jimmy never wore those pants during the New York run in '73. That pic must be from Pittsburgh" "Oh wait. he didn't wear that necklace in Pittsburgh, it must be Philly", and on you go.). The fun thing is that we're all here! Enjoy and welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose351 Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 I hope I didn't rub you the wrong way Moose. It wasn't my intention at all. I just get enthusiastic. It could be said that we all have our areas that we know better about stuff. HUW is the resident Les Paul master. I, being a guitarist and gearhound for 30+ years can get you 90%, but defer to HUW when I've reached the limit of my knowledge. You've also got your hardcore bootologists. I modded the boots forum on another board for a couple of years, and have many, but I wouldn't presume to compete with the real core guys. Then you've got the clothesologists, the hairologists, etc. (e.g. "Jimmy never wore those pants during the New York run in '73. That pic must be from Pittsburgh" "Oh wait. he didn't wear that necklace in Pittsburgh, it must be Philly", and on you go.). The fun thing is that we're all here! Enjoy and welcome! Thanks again Ev. I'd hate to dispute a point about les pauls with HUW then. I just wonder why i have been obsessed with the zebra bridge pickup for so long? He seems to feel safe with his records on the mater though. I'm most probably wrong, but again for my own sanity, I hope I'm not. LOL It's all good. I was always the go to man for Zep facts around my group of friends. I suppose that's why I'm like a dog with a bone with this one...... LOL Can you believe that Noel Gallagah (i forgot how it's spelled) has Pete Greens 59'. What a waste....... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose351 Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 The Black Beauty LP Custom, as used at RAH & later stolen had a zebra amongst it's three pickups: ...but as far as I know neither #1 nor #2 has ever sported an (uncovered) zebra. Happy to be proven wrong, as always, but this is one of those things I feel pretty safe on. Anyway, I don't know why but talking about a zebra - ie a black & white pickup - made me think of this again... Spot the difference: The first is Jimmy Page, live in 1975 with #2 - note the exposed white pickup. The second is the same picture photoshoped by Gibson's ad dept to publicise the Page signature model (based on #1) - note how Jimmy has had a new pickup installed in a split-second on-stage move... ...or not. Here's a weird point of view......... Apart from the custom shop JP models. I seem to feel that the 'Iced tea' burst (which Gibson denies knowledge of ; must be a custom shop colour) is closer to the colour of jimmy's No1 than a Cherry burst. If i was going to buy an R9, it would be in iced tea. Just an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 I'd hate to dispute a point about les pauls with HUW then... Like Ev said - it's not a dispute, it's only a discussion... ...He seems to feel safe with his records on the mater though. I'm most probably wrong... Moose, I'm always happy to proven wrong. It's just that I like to see the proof... I don't just want to be right, I want to know - that's the thing. If you can drop a picture on me showing #1 with a zebra pickup I would be absolutely delighted . I'd have found out something that I didn't know yesterday. That's what it's about, so please don't feel like anyone is infallible & always right & knows everything (least of all me) - that's not how it works. And we always looooove talking about this stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Can you believe that Noel Gallagah (i forgot how it's spelled) has Pete Greens 59'. What a waste....... LOL Evster steals Noel's thunder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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