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Jimmy Page in Beijing


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It was an odd feeling seeing him out there. Good to see him play (but he wasnt), glad he is enjoying his well earned due, but strange seeing Zep being commercialized a little. Just because that for decades, that was their deal - not to be doing the cheese like that.

Didnt say he was selling out, but it is a little difficult to adjust to the new post-Zep world Jimmy is living in, thats all.

As for Lewis being manufactured - well she won a talent contest, and reaped the benefits of that contest. Sure she is talented vocally, but cmon - she won a contest, had a bunch of other more talented song writers write songs for her, and got a label to promote it. Thats manufactured in my dictionary.

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I admire Jimmy Page so much

Admire him enough to call him a 'tit'?

One more thing, and what the fuck has Pagey done with his hair, he looked a right tit. He's not in his 20's anymore.

Wow, what a fan you are. I'm sure, in time, he'd think the same of you.

I think he's well aware of his age, and he probably had it tied up for the same reason I do when I'm in a humid climate. It can get incredibly warm and the last thing you want is your fucking hair sticking to you, especially if you are performing.

And Knebby, well said. You expressed my sentiments perfectly.

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A typical western attitude, perpetuated by ignorance of other countries, their perceived cultural differences and (lack of) musical knowledge.

Even the Russian president is a Zeppelin fan so why wouldn't the Chinese also be aware?

After all they were part and parcel of the decadent west during the late 60's and 70's so just about everyone knew or had heard of them!

Of course he is well known in China and every other communist country for that matter.

Just because they're a communist regime doesn't mean they can CONTROL everything.

Over the last 50 years there have been millions of exchange students ALL around the world that would have been exposed to the music.

I'm almost positive they would have at least communicated with their families by mail!

The internet has been around for a long time now and word of mouth, what about shortwave radio or the telephone?

40 years ago I had to get my fix of Rock 'n' Roll late at night by crystal radio and this was supposed to be the "free" world!

So much to talk about here (and not just this post too).

The number one cultural barrier is language (Aquamarine also hints at this). That means that ignorance always follows because it's nearly impossible to understand the other culture unless you yourself happen to speak the other language.

Sure you can listen to a translation, but even then, it's really only an interpretation.

But here's the thing, it wasn't just the English speakers who were assuming that Zeppelin isn't well known enough.

see this thread: Jimmy Not Famous Enough

The article embedded in the thread states that this business of Jimmy not being popular enough was in the Chinese newspapers.

So the Chinese, and not just the English speaking countries, are also perpetuating this notion.

Whether that is in the Chinese paper because of some sort of communist influence or if it's someone's opinion is probably not possible to figure out. So according to that article, that's where the source is, not the ignorance of English speakers.

...

Is anyone here from China? It'd be nice to have a cultural informant on the other side to help us sort this out.

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I think it's more to do with western ignorance of Chinese culture, and not the other way around. I suppose we have been taught to think of the oppressive communists as preventing Western culture getting through, because not a lot of Chinese culture gets through to us (either because of their government or our media).

Ignorance definitely goes both ways, especially when a different language is involved. Both cultures have an outsider's view of the other one.

And there's nothing wrong with that! It's only fitting that two cultures who don't understand each other not understand each other. B)

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:cheer:

Right on!

I went into it also thinking Leona Lewis was nothing more than a manufactured pop star in a tight dress, and left liking her very much. You just hit the bulls eye on one of the reasons. Great performance on her part.

I have to say I agree with Mr. Tit on this one. (to some extent).

Leona Lewis is a really talented singer. Her performance with Jimmy alone shows that.

However, she is apart of the ever present manufacture of pop-stars. NO ONE CAN WRITE THEIR OWN MUSIC ANYMORE! Why? Because they don't know anything about music, they just know how to sing along and follow a script.

I always have more respect for rock-emo bands (which I hate!) that write their own music than pop-singers who don't, even if the pop-singers sound better!

...

With that being said, I still think it was a good collaboration. After all, Jimmy is a guitar player and Leona is a singer, so it works. And it was for national pride--another good cause.

But I'm not rushing out to buy a Leona Lewis album, or any pop star's music for that matter, until they start writing their own music---or put the names and faces of the people who wrote the music right on the front cover of their album.

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being a good writer has nothing to do with performance. All music is manufactured one way or another. Look at Elton John singing LSD or Robert Plant doing albums of covers. This was an English event on Chinease soil. Not a Zeppelin event. It was not a jam or concert. It was about showing off the English culture to the world and just because Jimmy Page hasn't done (TV) in the past dosen't mean he can't do it now. After all he just did a Zeppelin concert a few months ago for charity. This wasn't about selling a single, it was about selling London and IOC felt that the best way to do that was to call upon a composition.........................

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I have to say I agree with Mr. Tit on this one. (to some extent).

Leona Lewis is a really talented singer. Her performance with Jimmy alone shows that.

However, she is apart of the ever present manufacture of pop-stars. NO ONE CAN WRITE THEIR OWN MUSIC ANYMORE! Why? Because they don't know anything about music, they just know how to sing along and follow a script.

I always have more respect for rock-emo bands (which I hate!) that write their own music than pop-singers who don't, even if the pop-singers sound better!

...

With that being said, I still think it was a good collaboration. After all, Jimmy is a guitar player and Leona is a singer, so it works. And it was for national pride--another good cause.

But I'm not rushing out to buy a Leona Lewis album, or any pop star's music for that matter, until they start writing their own music---or put the names and faces of the people who wrote the music right on the front cover of their album.

Oh come on - more than half of the 60s and 70s bands had other people write their songs - its nothing new - and I'm willing to bet you have some of them in your collection and didn't hold out for a cover that suited you.
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being a good writer has nothing to do with performance. All music is manufactured one way or another. Look at Elton John singing LSD or Robert Plant doing albums of covers. This was an English event on Chinease soil. Not a Zeppelin event. It was not a jam or concert. It was about showing off the English culture to the world and just because Jimmy Page hasn't done (TV) in the past dosen't mean he can't do it now. After all he just did a Zeppelin concert a few months ago for charity. This wasn't about selling a single, it was about selling London and IOC felt that the best way to do that was to call upon a composition.........................

Well yeah, I thought it was a good collaboration for a good cause.

I'm not upset that Jimmy and Leona did this, I'm proud.

But I'm not going to buy any Leona Lewis stuff because of it, that's all.

As for Plant doing albums of covers, I can't tell if you're talking about his solo career or time with Led Zeppelin.

Either way, I think he's well enough established to be able to have that type of creative license.

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Oh come on - more than half of the 60s and 70s bands had other people write their songs - its nothing new - and I'm willing to bet you have some of them in your collection and didn't hold out for a cover that suited you.

I have to say that when it comes to the music I own, I have a very narrow collection, probably because of my views on the "create your own music" perspective.

Well let's see what's in my collection:

-anything released by Led Zeppelin and many things not released. (not too much of a stretch there)

-all the White Stripes albums

-a chock full of Beatles stuff

Various excerpts from:

-Neil Young

-The Doors

-The Rolling Stones

-Guns N' Roses

-Jimi Hendrix

-Black Sabbath

-Van Halen

-The Offspring

-Metallica

and from the days of my youth (like 6th grade or so):

No Doubt

So here's the type of flack I expect to get from posting this:

1. This catalog is not diverse enough and too mainstream.

response: I can't buy everything and I'm only going to buy something that I know is good. This isn't all that I've listened to, just all that I've bought (both with money and in believability).

2. All of these bands did a lot of covers (some more than others)

response: With covers, you still have to play the instruments, in addition to singing. Plus, the best covers are the ones that expand/explore the subject matter of the song, something that Led Zeppelin did perfectly.

So yeah, I think my collection is clean. I'm pretty sure every album I own is mostly original material. Original here means that the artists who released the album are the ones playing the instruments and are mostly responsible for the song writing.

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I used to be of similar beliefs about doing ones own material. Ie keeping it clean in that sense but I have since learned that music is a continuose interpretaion, an evolution if you will. I think maybe Bob Dylan was speaking his mind and other performers wanted to express themselvs,,,, However I realize now that it is possible to put that love into it even if it was written by onother.

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I used to be of similar beliefs about doing ones own material. Ie keeping it clean in that sense but I have since learned that music is a continuose interpretaion, an evolution if you will. I think maybe Bob Dylan was speaking his mind and other performers wanted to express themselvs,,,, However I realize now that it is possible to put that love into it even if it was written by onother.

Yeah I agree that their hearts are into it. And I'm sure that there's even a high level of interpretation going on. I'm not saying they are void of any talent. I'm just saying that the dynamic of a group is more interesting to me.

I think the problem is that everyone wants to be a Rock Star, but not as many want to spend time developing their own talent or finding the right group of people to create with as a whole.

In essence, I think these people are selling out too soon. I think if you want to be good, you have to be patient, and not rush into anything just because you can sing well.

Don't try to force anything, and don't get desperate. There's always time to find the right time. I recall Jimmy Page recently responding to a question with something like "It's because I'm not desperate". The man is 60+ and he's not desperate. Now that's a model of integrity right there (but I didn't have to tell any of you that).

Go hang out somewhere where you can find other musicians with similar tastes and try to create something with them, and then sign a contract.

Don't sign a contract first, and then figure out what to sing.

...

I didn't get the Dylan reference if you could please explain.

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Is anyone here from China? It'd be nice to have a cultural informant on the other side to help us sort this out.

Hello here, I'm from China, and I think yes I can say something about that.

If you read that article carefully enough, you'll see it said "some chinese media and bloggers".

The only media mentioned there was the Titan Sports Weekly, one of the biggest sports paper in China, and this paper did know who Jimmy Page is.

I've gone through a whole lot of stuffs for example from CCTV, the chinese central TV, there was never a word said that "Jimmy Page not famous enough".

Chinese people are polite, and why should we call our guest "not famous enough"?

About the columnists and bloggers, you know, there could be a lot of things being written, with or without ingnorance. If I'd like to dig in the western blogs, I'm sure I can find a lot of things which are quite "funny" to us chinese...

I've said before, sure China is not a rock country. And the culture difference is definitely there. But as a chinese visitor hier on an english board, I'd like to ask if anyone here read in a chinese forum? That shows something already, right?

I always think if you DO want to know and appreciate the other kinds of culture, language won't be the biggest problem. The greatest problem is in people's head. Music, for example, is a beautiful way for all the people to communicate.

Sorry for my english, I hope you get what I meant to say here.

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I've said before, sure China is not a rock country. And the culture difference is definitely there. But as a chinese visitor hier on an english board, I'd like to ask if anyone here read in a chinese forum?

Hi,

Can you send a link about what Chinese forum you're referring to? Not sure I follow you here. Most of the forum's English speakers don't know Chinese as a second language, so we can't read those blogs to begin with. I'm interested now!

Thanks,

:)

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The Dylan thing was about a musician having something to say in a social context. Elvis didn't write his own material. But after Bob Dylan and the Beatles every rock band felt they had to write their own songs in order to be taken seriously.

It gets to the hart of the notion of selling out as a musician. I think the message in WWL is universal enough to be felt by anyone. If LL had sung STH it might be a different story.

I'm not an expert but in our post modern consumer society it is hard to make any move without selling out at least a little.

What new artists have a message? Kanye , Tupac,

I think the Zeppelin message is to be yourself and let it all hang out, but within that you can certainly borrow ideas.

I don't know maybe I went off topic

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Hi,

Can you send a link about what Chinese forum you're referring to? Not sure I follow you here. Most of the forum's English speakers don't know Chinese as a second language, so we can't read those blogs to begin with. I'm interested now!

Thanks,

:)

Sure, here is a link: http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/content.../1/105740.shtml

Tianya (which means the end of the world) is one of the biggest online communities in China. And this link is to a topic about Led Zeppelin(that's why I take it).

You maybe can't read chinese but you'll see how many people talk about west music and how much they've discussed.

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I have to say I agree with Mr. Tit on this one. (to some extent).

Leona Lewis is a really talented singer. Her performance with Jimmy alone shows that.

However, she is apart of the ever present manufacture of pop-stars. NO ONE CAN WRITE THEIR OWN MUSIC ANYMORE! Why? Because they don't know anything about music, they just know how to sing along and follow a script.

I always have more respect for rock-emo bands (which I hate!) that write their own music than pop-singers who don't, even if the pop-singers sound better!

...

With that being said, I still think it was a good collaboration. After all, Jimmy is a guitar player and Leona is a singer, so it works. And it was for national pride--another good cause.

But I'm not rushing out to buy a Leona Lewis album, or any pop star's music for that matter, until they start writing their own music---or put the names and faces of the people who wrote the music right on the front cover of their album.

Leona is credited as writing at least one of the songs on her album, which is actually really good albeit a tad overproduced but you can clearly hear the talent. That's not manufactured in her case at all.

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I have an mp4 file of Jimmy's and Leona's performance and it includes brief after-concert comments from each of them. I would post it here but, unfortunately, it's too large for my photobucket so it truncates right before they speak. In addition to being incredibly beautiful and talented, Leona comes across as such a lovely, sweet, and humble person when she speaks. My friends and I commented that she is a breath of fresh air compared to many "pop stars" we've seen and heard. It was great to see and hear Jimmy post-performance - he looked so happy (as well he should be) and energized. :)

I am embarrassed to mention here how many times I have watched this vid of their performance and post-performance comments. :bagoverhead:

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Ni hao. i thought jimmy page's futuristic/cosmic guitar element he added was interesting. still havent seen it again since the live showing. i'm wondering, is there any other "better" recordings of this out there? cause the nbc broadcast was horrible.

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Sure, here is a link: http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/content.../1/105740.shtml

Tianya (which means the end of the world) is one of the biggest online communities in China. And this link is to a topic about Led Zeppelin(that's why I take it).

You maybe can't read chinese but you'll see how many people talk about west music and how much they've discussed.

Thanks! Considering it's all written in Chinese, I have no idea what's being said apart from Kashmir, but I take your word for it!

:)

ps= just curious, what's your viewpoint on the Chinese Officials sensoring the lyrics to Whole Lotta Love at the Olympics?

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I used to be of similar beliefs about doing ones own material. Ie keeping it clean in that sense but I have since learned that music is a continuose interpretaion, an evolution if you will. I think maybe Bob Dylan was speaking his mind and other performers wanted to express themselvs,,,, However I realize now that it is possible to put that love into it even if it was written by onother.

Bob's first record is mostly covers, everything from North Country Girl to In My Time of Dying (great version of it btw). But you bring Dylan into it and you're suddenly talking something beyond songwriting ...the development of a consistent voice with a point of view. That's very rare - Lou Reed, Neil Young in some of his characters - a few others. What happens with this is people tend to forget about say, Motown where Smokey Robinson wrote his own stuff but not too many other people did. The explosion of the record industry in the early 70s was built on people writing their own stuff, but it couldn't sustain itself. The industry ran out of bands that could make a complete record of worthwhile original music.

So now Jack White hasn't met a song he hasn't covered or lifted and as the story goes Appetite for Destruction is considered the last real "album" -- that's 20 years ago. But it was over in the late 1970s. New wave was a lot of one or two good songs per record. Now, it's one song on myspace or in a commercial and you can roll ... if you have the right producer and especially if you have Dr. Dre.

We shouldn't be holding a young soul singer with a rich voice up to Smokey Robinson and Neil Young standards, anyway.

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Thanks! Considering it's all written in Chinese, I have no idea what's being said apart from Kashmir, but I take your word for it!

:)

ps= just curious, what's your viewpoint on the Chinese Officials sensoring the lyrics to Whole Lotta Love at the Olympics?

Well, I haven't heard a word from the chinese media about "sensoring". They only said the London Organizer had changed the lyrics a bit. The first time I knew it was from here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/otherspor...r-Olympics.html

And I don't think it's a big deal, really.

First, the lyrics doesn't fit a female singer that well, if Leona wanted to change it, that was ok.

Second, I think there're also many western ppl(non rocker fans, conservative ppl) who would think the lyrics are bit nasty, too.

Third, most chinese don't understand English that well to even know what Leona was singing...

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Bob's first record is mostly covers, everything from North Country Girl to In My Time of Dying (great version of it btw). But you bring Dylan into it and you're suddenly talking something beyond songwriting ...the development of a consistent voice with a point of view. That's very rare - Lou Reed, Neil Young in some of his characters - a few others. What happens with this is people tend to forget about say, Motown where Smokey Robinson wrote his own stuff but not too many other people did. The explosion of the record industry in the early 70s was built on people writing their own stuff, but it couldn't sustain itself. The industry ran out of bands that could make a complete record of worthwhile original music.

So now Jack White hasn't met a song he hasn't covered or lifted and as the story goes Appetite for Destruction is considered the last real "album" -- that's 20 years ago. But it was over in the late 1970s. New wave was a lot of one or two good songs per record. Now, it's one song on myspace or in a commercial and you can roll ... if you have the right producer and especially if you have Dr. Dre.

We shouldn't be holding a young soul singer with a rich voice up to Smokey Robinson and Neil Young standards, anyway.

Most of Jack White's material is original and "unlifted," although he has his influences like everybody else--but are you forgetting about people like Springsteen?? To say it was over in the late 70s seems just a touch blinkered. :unsure:

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Thinking about it, maybe the way for Page and Jones to go is to create compositions or montages and riffs for different voices. It sounds like Plant probably isn't interested and doesn't believe they can recapture the Zep magic - and is probably scared shitless that they might and then what? Nothing would be more pathetic than Jones, Page and Jason putting out a three-piece band plus singer if that one singer is someone other than Plant. They've got THE band - why get hung up on the singer. Chris Robinson would come sing. Neil Young would come play. They could call up Sandy Denny! And why not Leona, if her voice is what Jones or Page is hearing on a particular thing. If they do the three-man rock trip plus singer with somebody other than Robert we're all going to hate it. I already hate it.

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