All this over a stupid Teddy Bear...

[Del Zeppnile]

I don't disagree that Islam is a religion that seems to condone.. if not actually demand.. violence against those whom Muslims consider to be infidels...

...I think we're probably in agreement thus far, yes?

I believe that most rational people would agree on that, yes.

The point of my previous post was that although Christians no longer advocate the wholesale slaughter of non-believers as they did during the crusades...

I need to stop you right there because I disagree with your interpretation of the Crusades. While I do agree that there were many examples of horrible behavior on the part of Christians during the Crusades. I also believe that it is important to remember that the Crusades were initially a RESPONSE to Islam and Islamic Jihad. The fact that Islam had for many years been MURDERING CHRISTIANS, JEWS, HINDUS and all others in there blood thirsty conquest of lands in the middle east. Christians finally responded to this threat... granted in a not so noble manner. But it was a response.

Keep in mind that nearly the entire region of Asia minor, Egypt and North Africa had been for many centuries predominantly Christian. And these were Christians who were never converted by force or threat. Something that Islam at been doing for many years until finally came to an armed response.

You ought to check out some books by Robert Spencer. The Politically incorrect guide to the Islam and the Crusades would be a good starting point.

Christianity does share with Islam the similarity of holding a deathlike grip on the belief that their God is the one true God, that he is infallible, and that his laws are the one true set of laws. They both summarily dismiss the validity of the other and unquestioningly hold onto their own belief system. Ask them to question their beliefs and they refuse; ask them to support their belief system with reason, logic, conscience, and personal experience.. and they cite sacred scripture...

It doesn't matter what any group believes. What matters is what their beliefs compel them to act on. If a religious group believes that rocks are sacred and need to be worshiped who cares? But if that group believes that the rocks need to be smashed on the heads of non-believers until they believe. Then at that point we all care.

You can never logically compare Islam to Christianity based on the ACTIONS of the two religions either in the past or in the present. And I'm not saying that Christians have been without blame. However, it pales in comparison to Islam on all accounts.

From a Muslim you might hear something like "according to the Koran, Allah.. the one true God.. who is infallible.. said it's so, therefore it is so. Sharia law is God's law. Period. End of story. You will never, ever convince me otherwise."

From fundamentalist Christians you might hear something like "For the upteenth time the Scriptures whole-heartedly supports capital punishment, so honestly you can argue until your typing fingers bleed and you will never, ever, ever sway me one bit on this issue since I take to heart far more what the Scriptures clearly teach over your opinion."

As you can plainly see, adherence to a belief system that is based on the root belief that 'my God is the one true infallible God and his law is the one true law' is a characteristic shared in common by fundamentalists of both Islam and Christianity. And like many Muslims refuse to acknowledge the barbarism of Sharia law, choosing instead to cite Sharia law as the religious justification for that barbarism, so too do many Christians refuse to acknowledge the barbarism of capital punishment, choosing instead to cite scripture as the justification for such barbarism.

I find it rather ironic that in casting stones at Islam many Christians fail to recognize the fundamental (as in 'root') similarity the two religions have in common.. a similarity that is made obviously apparent when we're discussing the barbarism of Sharia law and a Christian is asked to justify his support for capital punishment and the rationale for that support is essentially the same root rationale that a Muslim would use to justify a stoning to death of a 19 year old rape victim.. "according to God's laws as set forth in our sacred scripture...blah, blah, blah..".

I appreciate that you did not deny the similarities of the two religions in this regard,.. but I find your (paraphrased) "Christianity doesn't advocate the killing of non-believers like Islam does, so lets keep our attention on Islam" response to be a bit of a side-stepper. While you don't deny the similarities of the two religions, neither do you acknowledge the similarities I've pointed out.

Believing in 'one God" is the only similarity. But if you can't see the vast difference in how that belief translates within each religion, then I feel you are choosing to ignore the obvious.

Of course I appreciate the point you're getting at... that its far preferable to live in a country that guarantees freedom of religious practice rather than living in a nation in which you can be killed for challenging the rationale of the national, or regional, religion. Not a "subtle" difference at all. ..smartass.

However, I'm not aware of any "countries that practice Christianity" as a matter of national policy (other than the Vatican, of course) or national law, and if it was the case that practicing Christianity was a matter of national law then its quite likely that anyone bucking that system.. violating the law.. by practicing another religion, would face harsh penalties. So its not "the practice of Christianity" itself that enables people freedom of religious practice, its the law of the nation that allows freedom of religious practice. Ergo, your point is somewhat skewed.

In the United States we have never had a national religion per say. But to deny that in our history we have not been a predominantly Christian nation is deny truth. Certainly you don't deny that in this nation people have had more religious freedom than in most other places in the world. My previous point was a comparison between the differences in a Islamic nation and a Christian nation (which is what we are).

Furthermore, your point doesn't address the point I was making about the root similarity shared by Christianity and Islam.. a similarity in thinking that closes the "true believer" off to considering any perspective other than that which is supported by the religious belief system. Both religions are based on a system of thinking that is circular and closed.. a closed loop of reinforcement.. in which the belief system itself is cited as being the most basic validation of the belief system. There is no critical analysis that takes into account factors that might challenge the rationale of that belief system.

That way of thinking, my friend,.. a way of thinking that is shared in common by both fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims.. is not a very "evolved" way of thinking.

Do you think I am a 'fundamentalist' Christian?

I don't think you really understand where Christians are coming from. Because despite your lables, I am confident that most Fundamentalist Christians, Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic Christians, Conservative Christians and other Evangelicals. Alll have beleifs that they don't feel need to be challenged or validated to others who are not believers.

But isn't that the same with ALL religions?

[Mangani]

It'd be nice when the time comes when everybody grows up, stops believing in silly fairy tales and religion is no more. Can't see it ever happening though. Too many backwards people in this world.

[Scratch]

It'd be nice when the time comes when everybody grows up, stops believing in silly fairy tales and religion is no more. Can't see it ever happening though. Too many backwards people in this world.

Because you are so intelligent, progressive, and evolved.

natch.

~666

[Scratch]

You know, Plato was a religious man.

Schopenhauer was a religious man.

Kant was a religious man.

Hegel was a religious man.

Augustine was a religious man.

Gandhi was a religious man....

Relgion really MUST be for the backward!

What do YOU dipshits have to offer?

~666

[Old Scratch]

December 4, 2007

Christian population in Palestinian-controlled areas could disappear in 15 years

by Etgar Lefkovits for the Jerusalem Post:

The ever-dwindling Christian communities living in Palestinian-run territories in the West Bank and Gaza are likely to dissipate completely within the next 15 years as a result of increasing Muslim persecution and maltreatment, an Israeli scholar said Monday.

"The systematic persecution of Christian Arabs living in Palestinian areas is being met with nearly total silence by the international community, human rights activists, the media and NGOs," said Justus Reid Weiner, an international human rights lawyer in an address at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, where he serves as a scholar in residence.

He cited Muslim harassment and persecution as the main cause of the "acute human rights crisis" facing Christian Arabs, and predicted that unless governments or institutions step in to remedy the situation - such as with job opportunities - there will be no more Christian communities living in the Palestinians territories within 15 years, with only a few Western Christians and top clergymen left in the area.

"Christian leaders are being forced to abandon their followers to the forces of radical Islam," Weiner said.

Facing a pernicious mixture of persecution and economic hardships as a result of years of Palestinian violence and Israeli counter-terrorism measures, tens of thousands of Christian Arabs have left the Palestinian territories for a better life in the West, in a continuing exodus which has led some Christian leaders to warn that the faith could be virtually extinct in its birthplace in a matter of decades.

The Palestinian Christian population has dipped to 1.5 percent of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, down from at least 15% a half century ago, according to some estimates.

No one city in the Holy Land is more indicative of the great exodus of Christians than Bethlehem, which fell under full Palestinian control last decade as part of the Oslo Accords.

The town of 30,000 is now less than 20% Christian, after decades when Christians were the majority. Elsewhere in the Palestinian territories, only about 3,000 Christians, mostly Greek Orthodox, live in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, out of a strongly conservative Muslim population of 1.4 million.

"In a society where Arab Christians have no voice and no protection it is no surprise that they are leaving," he said.

[...]

Weiner argued there was a "180 degree difference" between the public statements coming out of the mainstream Christian leadership in the Holy Land - who "sing the PA's tune" and blame Israel for all the Christian Arabs' ills - and people's experience on the ground.

"The truth is beginning to come out," he said. "The question is what is being done with the truth."

~666

[Debbie]

I find it really sad that there will be no Christian's left in the Holy Land soon.

[Mr. Da-Lo]

Wow, somewhere productivity has taken a downturn toward people writing volumes about why religion is quack and why they are so much better than old Miss Miller the Christian down the road.

This may hurt most of you self righteous atheist but a real Christian does not claim to better than anyone else.

and don’t respond by saying...."Mr. Da-Lo, I am not hurt, your arguments are benign to my over whelming arguments based on my hatred of my parents making me go to church, and that time I got pregnant and didn’t want it upsetting my college plans, Life is such a drag....Blah Blah...Al Gore...Global Warming....Blah Blah....No blood for oil....Obama 2008....have you seen my new IPod?.....I hope my teacher doesn’t catch me on this site....Christians are evil and Bush should die"

All I gots to really say is that Muslims gotsta take Da lime and Da coconut and....

Or take a chill pill for that matter

Maybe there should be a rule that you can’t drag out prior bad acts after 200 years

I find it humorous that the same people that say they are defending the freedoms of our country are the same ones that want to limit what others can do because of their chosen religion. I for one don’t really give a damn if anyone wants to do something peculiar, as long as it doesn’t inhibit of infringe the rights of others.

West Side.

[Hermit]

I find it really sad that there will be no Christian's left in the Holy Land soon.

I find it really, really sad that so many people have died,

and continue to die, over this notion of "the Holy Land".

Afaic, the whole planet is holy land.

[desirezep]

The lady is now home, with her family so the news has said.

[Old Scratch]

I find it really, really sad that so many people have died,

and continue to die, over this notion of "the Holy Land".

Afaic, the whole planet is holy land.

If you mean INDIA ... yeah .. the whole planet is holy land.

May you ride the samsaric wheel 'till the end of Kaliyug, you frickin' Vedic apostate.

Didn't Sri Adi Shankara give you enough of an intellectual lashing back in the day? What ... you want another piece?

Yeah ... that's what I thought.

Go back to Tibet with the rest of your ken.

Anyway, those "vengeful, wrathful god" worshippers can have that forsaken, nomad-infested desert.

'nuff said.

~666

[ALEISTER CROWLEY]

Teddy Bears are, without doubt, all evil.

Yet,

They can be the life of the party!

[Hermit]

It doesn't matter what any group believes. What matters is what their beliefs compel them to act on. If a religious group believes that rocks are sacred and need to be worshiped who cares? But if that group believes that the rocks need to be smashed on the heads of non-believers until they believe. Then at that point we all care.

You can never logically compare Islam to Christianity based on the ACTIONS of the two religions either in the past or in the present. And I'm not saying that Christians have been without blame. However, it pales in comparison to Islam on all accounts.

We've already established that Islam is a religion that condones.. if not demands at times.. violence against non-believers and Christianity does not. There's no need to keep repeating that argument. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the rigidly closed-off, "we're right, you're wrong; we're so sure we're right and we're so sure you're wrong that you need not even bother saying anything about it. end of discussion." mindset of fundamentalist followers of religions.

This mindset leads followers of Sharia law to believe that the stoning to death of rape victims is "justice" and it leads to some Christians (like yourself and String) to citing religion as your moral justification for your idea of "justice".. which happens to involve, in some cases, the premeditated killing of a person.

Don't you see the paradoxical irony in citing religion as a justification for killing someone?

Believing in 'one God" is the only similarity. But if you can't see the vast difference in how that belief translates within each religion, then I feel you are choosing to ignore the obvious.

At least you acknowledge that one similarity.

cheers to you.

I'll leave it at that for now,.. no need to press about other similarities just now.

And let's be clear,.. we're not just talking about a belief in "one God" as in monotheism vs polytheism,.. we're talking about a closed-minded rigid belief that "my God is the one true infallible God, his laws are the one true infallible set of laws; it's true cuz our sacred text says its true, so I won't even begin to entertain any other possibilities, and wont ever, ever, ever question my own beliefs; why should I when the sacred text tells me its true?"

Closed-mindedness is the issue I'm getting at, not monotheism per se.

And btw Del, as long you're talking about "actions".. would your religious set of morals allow you to support something heinous like say.. the mass murder (via bombing) of innocent women and children?

In the United States we have never had a national religion per say. But to deny that in our history we have not been a predominantly Christian nation is deny truth. Certainly you don't deny that in this nation people have had more religious freedom than in most other places in the world. My previous point was a comparison between the differences in a Islamic nation and a Christian nation (which is what we are).

Freedom of religion in the US is not granted by Christianity; its granted by the Constitution. Having said that,.. yes, the US is currently predominantly a Christ-believing nation. But we are not a "Christian nation"; there is no state religion in American (not that Christians like yourself wouldn't like to change that if they could, huh? )

Do you think I am a 'fundamentalist' Christian?

I don't think you really understand where Christians are coming from. Because despite your lables, I am confident that most Fundamentalist Christians, Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic Christians, Conservative Christians and other Evangelicals. Alll have beleifs that they don't feel need to be challenged or validated to others who are not believers.

But isn't that the same with ALL religions?

Who said anything about "needing to validate one's beliefs to others"? Being open-minded doesn't mean convincing others of the validity of your beliefs; it means a willingness to expose oneself to various ways of thinking about things. It means a willingness to scrutinize one's own belief system.

Not all religious people are closed-minded; many religious people value critical analysis of their beliefs and they're willing to expose themselves to various ways of thinking about things and perceiving things.

Your assumption that ALL religions.. and therefore all religious people.. think like you do, may be indicative the fact that you haven't opened yourself up to learning about other ways that people relate to religion.

eh?

anyway,.. to each his/her own, bro.

--------------

so as to not lose sight of the theme this thread..

SPEAK UP FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

SPEAK OUT AGAINST SHARIA LAW.

[edited for typos]

[Hermit]

If you mean INDIA ... yeah .. the whole planet is holy land.

yes, dear,.. "the whole planet" being holy includes India. [ ]

..and Tibet.

..and even.. uhh.. Missouri.

now be a good boy and go feed your elephant.

and while you're at it,.. give my regards to Mum, will ya?

[Del Zeppnile]

December 4, 2007

Christian population in Palestinian-controlled areas could disappear in 15 years

by Etgar Lefkovits for the Jerusalem Post:

The ever-dwindling Christian communities living in Palestinian-run territories in the West Bank and Gaza are likely to dissipate completely within the next 15 years as a result of increasing Muslim persecution and maltreatment, an Israeli scholar said Monday.

"The systematic persecution of Christian Arabs living in Palestinian areas is being met with nearly total silence by the international community, human rights activists, the media and NGOs," said Justus Reid Weiner, an international human rights lawyer in an address at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, where he serves as a scholar in residence....

...The Palestinian Christian population has dipped to 1.5 percent of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, down from at least 15% a half century ago, according to some estimates.

No one city in the Holy Land is more indicative of the great exodus of Christians than Bethlehem, which fell under full Palestinian control last decade as part of the Oslo Accords.

The town of 30,000 is now less than 20% Christian, after decades when Christians were the majority. Elsewhere in the Palestinian territories, only about 3,000 Christians, mostly Greek Orthodox, live in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, out of a strongly conservative Muslim population of 1.4 million.

"In a society where Arab Christians have no voice and no protection it is no surprise that they are leaving," he said....

[...]

10-15 years left in the middle east before all Christians are pushed out.

30-40 years for Europe.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! Islam is promoting the complete eradication of all other religions by force. They always have and always will.

[Debbie]

I find it really, really sad that so many people have died,

and continue to die, over this notion of "the Holy Land".

Afaic, the whole planet is holy land.

Right you are now that I come to think of it.

[Old Scratch]

10-15 years left in the middle east before all Christians are pushed out.

30-40 years for Europe.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! Islam is promoting the complete eradication of all other religions by force. They always have and always will.

How does it feel to be so incedibly intolerant of other cultures, Del?

Xenophobe!

And such a blatent bigot!

I mean ... what's so wrong with having a new culture be the majority?

How can you be so hateful of another race, Del?

I guess you think the world should be all white people and pumpkin pie ... you fucking imperialist.

It's wrong for you to be so racist against muslims, Mr. Milk Toast.

You white people make me sick.

No wonder your culture is so full of sin and hatred.

~666

[Del Zeppnile]

We've already established that Islam is a religion that condones.. if not demands at times.. violence against non-believers and Christianity does not. There's no need to keep repeating that argument. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the rigidly closed-off, "we're right, you're wrong; we're so sure we're right and we're so sure you're wrong that you need not even bother saying anything about it. end of discussion." mindset of fundamentalist followers of religions.

This mindset leads followers of Sharia law to believe that the stoning to death of rape victims is "justice" and it leads to some Christians (like yourself and String) to citing religion as your moral justification for your idea of "justice".. which happens to involve, in some cases, the premeditated killing of a person.

Don't you see the paradoxical irony in citing religion as a justification for killing someone?

NO.

Not speaking for String, but I don't need to site religion as the only justification for capital punishment. In this country capital punishment is just what it is... punishment in accordance with the severity of a crime. You steal a six pack of beer -- you get a fine and a slap on the wrist. You steal a car -- you get some time in jail. You hold up a store with a gun -- you get some YEARS in prison. You rape someone - you get many, many years in prison. You kill somebody (depending on the circumstances and degree of malice) -- you spend the rest of your life in prison or you are executed. It's that simple. It's called justice.

In Sharia countries; you steal something you get your hand chopped off. You commit any 'morals offence and you are beaten or possibly even killed. In Sharia countries you don't even have to commit the worst crime to be executed... and executed without a jury trial or any appeals other than to the governing religious body.

There is no comparison to my relgious views and those of radical Islam. Even if I am 'closed off' to other religious views, what is the point? My religious views do not lead me to the same mindset and actions of radical Islam despite your attempt to make this point over capital punishment.

I am willing to discuss capital punishment more, but maybe you should create a thread for just that topic?

And let's be clear,.. we're not just talking about a belief in "one God" as in monotheism vs polytheism,.. we're talking about a closed-minded rigid belief that "my God is the one true infallible God, his laws are the one true infallible set of laws; it's true cuz our sacred text says its true, so I won't even begin to entertain any other possibilities, and wont ever, ever, ever question my own beliefs; why should I when the sacred text tells me its true?"

Closed-mindedness is the issue I'm getting at, not monotheism per se.

I could argue that you are being closed minded to the many truths in my beliefs. But what do my beliefs matter as long as they don't cause harm. In this discussion we are talking about the petty beliefs of radical Islam, and how they are harming innocent people.

And btw Del, as long you're talking about "actions".. would your religious set of morals allow you to support something heinous like say.. the mass murder (via bombing) of innocent women and children?

"Murder" is much more specifically defined than just killing. In a little over one month during the Allied invasion of Normandy (D-day and the campaign to establish an Allied beach, and move inland) Allied bombs killed somewhere between 15 and 20,000 innocent French civilians.

Are you going to say that we murdered them?

Freedom of religion in the US is not granted by Christianity; its granted by the Constitution. Having said that,.. yes, the US is currently predominantly a Christ-believing nation. But we are not a "Christian nation"; there is no state religion in American (not that Christians like yourself wouldn't like to change that if they could, huh? )

I would argue that all of our freedoms in this country and the inspiration for our Constitution came from a Christian belief in God and the natural rights which we get from God. This is a nation built by Christians, that history can hardly be denied.

Who said anything about "needing to validate one's beliefs to others"? Being open-minded doesn't mean convincing others of the validity of your beliefs; it means a willingness to expose oneself to various ways of thinking about things. It means a willingness to scrutinize one's own belief system.

Who says I havn't done that? And does that mean that there is a good chance that you might be convinced to open your mind to Christianity or some other religion?

Not all religious people are closed-minded; many religious people value critical analysis of their beliefs and they're willing to expose themselves to various ways of thinking about things and perceiving things.

I think you will find that not all Christians agree on everything. But if being "closed minded" means rejecting things one believes to be false, then I think you are using the wrong terms. We could debate 'religion' until the end of time, but what would be point... to each his own.

Or should I say, I can only give an answer to questions of my beliefs. I personally don't feel compelled to convince anyone else about my beliefs. I may debate things where I believe people are attempting to portray my beliefs incorrectly. But in this forum one can only go so far with that... obviously.

Your assumption that ALL religions.. and therefore all religious people.. think like you do, may be indicative the fact that you haven't opened yourself up to learning about other ways that people relate to religion.

I don't think I ever made that assumption. Not sure where I said that?

[Del Zeppnile]

How does it feel to be so incedibly intolerant of other cultures, Del?

Xenophobe!

And such a blatent bigot!

I mean ... what's so wrong with having a new culture be the majority?

How can you be so hateful of another race, Del?

I guess you think the world should be all white people and pumpkin pie ... you fucking imperialist.

It's wrong for you to be so racist against muslims, Mr. Milk Toast.

You white people make me sick.

No wonder your culture is so full of sin and hatred.

~666

For some reason your arguement just doesn't seem convincing to me on the logical merits.

Maybe try holding a sword to my throat next time.

Works better for some.

[MS1]

10-15 years left in the middle east before all Christians are pushed out.

30-40 years for Europe.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! Islam is promoting the complete eradication of all other religions by force. They always have and always will.

You guys just can't stand qualifiers, can you? Never fundamentalist Islam, never radical Islam, always just plain Islam.

That is utterly prejudicial of course- there are Muslims and there are radical Muslims, in the same way there are Christians and then there are David Koresh and Jim Jones and the Children of God and Timothy McVeigh and and and.

I may have said this at the old board, and if so I reiterate: sometimes I think you won't be happy until Muhammed Ali is shivering for lack of Parkinson's meds in an internment camp infirmary.

Until you can show me that you have discretion in who you intend to act upon, you'll forgive me if I ignore your call to action.

[Mr. Da-Lo]

wasnt there a topic about a creepy book a while ago that was based on a future that has the United States taken over by Muslims and only the Bible belt surviving...and wasnt Detroit a Nuclear waste land?

[Old Scratch]

You guys just can't stand qualifiers, can you? Never fundamentalist Islam, never radical Islam, always just plain Islam.

That is utterly prejudicial of course- there are Muslims and there are radical Muslims, in the same way there are Christians and then there are David Koresh and Jim Jones and the Children of God and Timothy McVeigh and and and.

I may have said this at the old board, and if so I reiterate: sometimes I think you won't be happy until Muhammed Ali is shivering for lack of Parkinson's meds in an internment camp infirmary.

Until you can show me that you have discretion in who you intend to act upon, you'll forgive me if I ignore your call to action.

OK Sam ... let me qualify it this way.

Sharia Law.

That's really my bottom line with Islam of ANY sort.

~666

[Del Zeppnile]

wasnt there a topic about a creepy book a while ago that was based on a future that has the United States taken over by Muslims and only the Bible belt surviving...and wasnt Detroit a Nuclear waste land?

I thought Detroit already was a wasteland?

Maybe that's Dearborn though

[Hermit]

wasnt there a topic about a creepy book a while ago that was based on a future that has the United States taken over by Muslims and only the Bible belt surviving...and wasnt Detroit a Nuclear waste land?

Yeah,.. for some reason I remember that thread [ ].

..the book is "Prayers For the Assassin", by Robert Ferrigno.

[MS1]

OK Sam ... let me qualify it this way.

Sharia Law.

That's really my bottom line with Islam of ANY sort.

~666

Then you should be saying that! Within Islam, there is Secularism who believe Sharia Law holds no place in secular government; and Reformers, who believe that new religous theory can update Sharia law for the modern world. It's the Fundamentalists you have a problem with- and since I am in favor of the seperation of church and state, more power to you.

But for the life of me I just can't understand why making the proper distinction between well differentiated branches of a religion is such a vexation to your and Del's spirit. Say what you mean and quit with the nazi-esque blanket condemnations.

Edited to add- unless you are in favor of watching Kareem and Ahmad Rashad play a pick up game in a prison yard a la the Longest Yard- then, by all means make it the Evils of Islam with no qualifier.

[Old Scratch]

Then you should be saying that! Within Islam, there is Secularism who believe Sharia Law holds no place in secular government; and Reformers, who believe that new religous theory can update Sharia law for the modern world. It's the Fundamentalists you have a problem with- and since I am in favor of the seperation of church and state, more power to you.

But for the life of me I just can't understand why making the proper distinction between well differentiated branches of a religion is such a vexation to your and Del's spirit. Say what you mean and quit with the nazi-esque blanket condemnations.

Edited to add- unless you are in favor of watching Kareem and Ahmad Rashad play a pick up game in a prison yard a la the Longest Yard- then, by all means make it the Evils of Islam with no qualifier.

First of all, Sam....

I have been stating that.

Look at my sig.

But a little more sublimely, I suppose, is the fact that to criticize Sharia is to criticize Islam itself; because what is Sharia but drawn directly from the Koran and Hadith?

And no truly devout muslim would criticize the Koran, because it is the actual word of God; nor would he question the Prophet because he is the example of The Exemplary Man.

Government, Law and Religion are so intrinsically entwined in Islam that it makes it extremely difficult to untangle them without being guilty of apostacy ... or worse ... blasphemy.

Remember, Mohammed was no mere prophet.

He was a Statesman, Diplomat and a Warrior ... a Prince and a Ruler. Control was as much a part of his essence as his love for his god. His religion was not merely based on the revelation of God; he created a system that dictated the very social and economic fabric of his followers... and sanctified every aspect of those followers lives, rule, custom ... even personal hygiene ... as a matter of God's command.

It will be a great challenge for secular muslims to try and practice their faith as it was founded (and meant to be practiced) ... and still be able to reconcile these issues.

~666