VP Presidential Debate

[Dzldoc]

Just a dog and pony show

[Pb Derigable]

Biden wasn't 'fooled' because he was dumb, he was lied to outright with fake "intelligence" from the CIA, the gravitas of Colin Powell (who flushed his credibility down the toilet and hasn't been heard from since), and stone-cold lies from the neocons. Bush also callously used the nation's anxiety over 9/11 to start a war just so he could avenge daddy, even though it's now clear it had nothing to do with Iraq. That's just plain low. But hey, his buddies came out ok winning contracts to rebuild the country we destroyed. Then not only do the start the war in this disgusting fashion, but then proceed to eff it up every step of the way. That's Biden's fault, too, huh?

At the time we foolishly started that war, sanctions were working, Saddam was all but paralyzed, the inspectors were finding no evidence of banned weapons (which is why they had to go--and fast!) I don't doubt that if a different tack were taken he would still be gone from power today, but it wouldn't have cost us 4000 American lives, Jebus knows how many Iraqi lives, and 100s of billions of dollars. Our credibility is shot to hell world-wide. Afghanistan still festers while we are distracted in Iraq. Bin Laden is still on the loose. I could go on and on and on...

Possibly the biggest mistake this country ever made. And Bush is surely the worst president in modern history. And for all his maverick-speak McCain is just like him.

So you're saying, Barrack Obamas foreign Policy adviser, was not able to figure out that Bush was lying, even though Obama thought it was wrong. All that expertise in foreign Policy and a state senator from IL got it right and he got it wrong.

Biggest mistake in American history is letting the Civil War happen. Vietnam is more of a mistake than Iraq, Korea was more of a mistake in Iraq. The Bay of Pigs was a bigger mistake than Iraq. remember, there is no south Vietnam, and we are still at war with Korea. Giving aid to those bastards in Afghanistan was a far worse mistake.

I still believe Iraq war will be proven to be a good thing, I thought we should've waited at the time. Now if Obama pulls us out, and it goes to shit, that will be a mistake that could cost us more than anything else.

[Dzldoc]

So when does this debate start? I'm watching Animal Planet

[Mrs. Plant]

So when does this debate start? I'm watching Animal Planet

There is nothing wrong with animal planet

At least in animal land there are no politicians.

and it's not until tomorrow night....you got about 24 hours

[infidel]

So you're saying, Barrack Obamas foreign Policy adviser, was not able to figure out that Bush was lying, even though Obama thought it was wrong. All that expertise in foreign Policy and a state senator from IL got it right and he got it wrong.

Just shows how exceptional Obama is. Hell I opposed the war from the day the idea was floated and never bought the evidence, so I guess *I* should be his running mate. Also Obama was a state senator at the time. He had much less at stake. Also it is a fact that some Senators had access to 'intelligence' other people did not, which of course may also have been faked. Ugly idea, but I imagine if Obama had been in the Senate then, he probably would have voted for the war, too.

Look I'm not in love with Biden. Wasn't keen when the choice was made. I hope he doesn't have a harmful effect on Obama's chances. But I'm not in love with Obama either in the sense that I pretty much feel that all politicians are eventually going to let you down. In one sense, it's the nature of politics. Frankly we've set up a system where you more or less have to bullshit people and scratch backs to get anything done. Most of the time, I will admit, I am voting for the lesser of two evils. Sad, but true. But I still vote! I have hope that Obama might be different, but I'm no hero worshipper.

But I feel to my bones that McCain will be more of the same. Mavericks don't vote with the guy they're supposed to be 'mavericking' 90% of the time. And Palin frankly scares the hell out of me.

Biggest mistake in American history is letting the Civil War happen. Vietnam is more of a mistake than Iraq, Korea was more of a mistake in Iraq. The Bay of Pigs was a bigger mistake than Iraq. remember, there is no south Vietnam, and we are still at war with Korea. Giving aid to those bastards in Afghanistan was a far worse mistake.

Well you could argue big mistakes I suppose until the end of time. But this one hasn't played out yet. Let me say 'one of the biggest mistakes'. And obviously if you think the war is a good thing you're not going to agree it's any kind of mistake.

I still believe Iraq war will be proven to be a good thing, I thought we should've waited at the time. Now if Obama pulls us out, and it goes to shit, that will be a mistake that could cost us more than anything else.

Well time will tell. Wish I had your optimism. But as I said, I think we could have ousted Saddam and put in a friendlier government without all this cost. It's easy to sit back and say it was a good thing if you weren't personally involved.

And I apologize for rambling, this is kind of off-topic. Back on topic, I will watch the debates. I find them interesting and lets face it it's the best chance you get (such as it is) to see the candidates in action. If Palin can do no better than she did with Kitty Kat Couric, she's doomed. If it is some kind of plan to make folk's underestimate her, it's probably unprecedented in presidential history. But she does have the Republican misplaced sense of superiority going for her, so she'll probably do fine.

I think Biden should win but he has to walk a fine line. Beat her with the facts calmly.

[Electrophile]

The Civil War was inevitable. The only way slavery would end was with war. There was no way the South would just give up the basis of their economy without a fight. Racism won out in the end though, and the amendments that were supposed to give these people voting rights and due process rights and citizenship rights were not exactly enforced for another 100 years.

That war was a necessary evil.

[Medhb]

Just shows how exceptional Obama is. Hell I opposed the war from the day the idea was floated and never bought the evidence, so I guess *I* should be his running mate. Also Obama was a state senator at the time. He had much less at stake. Also it is a fact that some Senators had access to 'intelligence' other people did not, which of course may also have been faked. Ugly idea, but I imagine if Obama had been in the Senate then, he probably would have voted for the war, too.

Look I'm not in love with Biden. Wasn't keen when the choice was made. I hope he doesn't have a harmful effect on Obama's chances. But I'm not in love with Obama either in the sense that I pretty much feel that all politicians are eventually going to let you down. In one sense, it's the nature of politics. Frankly we've set up a system where you more or less have to bullshit people and scratch backs to get anything done. Most of the time, I will admit, I am voting for the lesser of two evils. Sad, but true. But I still vote! I have hope that Obama might be different, but I'm no hero worshipper.

But I feel to my bones that McCain will be more of the same. Mavericks don't vote with the guy they're supposed to be 'mavericking' 90% of the time. And Palin frankly scares the hell out of me.

Well you could argue big mistakes I suppose until the end of time. But this one hasn't played out yet. Let me say 'one of the biggest mistakes'. And obviously if you think the war is a good thing you're not going to agree it's any kind of mistake.

Well time will tell. Wish I had your optimism. But as I said, I think we could have ousted Saddam and put in a friendlier government without all this cost. It's easy to sit back and say it was a good thing if you weren't personally involved.

And I apologize for rambling, this is kind of off-topic. Back on topic, I will watch the debates. I find them interesting and lets face it it's the best chance you get (such as it is) to see the candidates in action. If Palin can do no better than she did with Kitty Kat Couric, she's doomed. If it is some kind of plan to make folk's underestimate her, it's probably unprecedented in presidential history. But she does have the Republican misplaced sense of superiority going for her, so she'll probably do fine.

I think Biden should win but he has to walk a fine line. Beat her with the facts calmly.

Kudos for an excellent post!

PB, I don't get the logic behind thinking Biden is a lesser candidate for buying into the bullshit when it was the Rebuplican leaders selling it....and good ole McCain took the bait hook, line and sinker too so they are on even ground as far as this silly point you are trying to drive home. It wobbled off the tee mate. Take a stroke and move on.

[THE FIRST LEDZEP]

Palin Wins

[Medhb]

So when does this debate start? I'm watching Animal Planet

Don't worry honey, we'll wake ya up

[longdistancewinner]

Yes. The media is responsible for a vice presidential candidate not knowing more than one supreme court case. Yes they are, by golly. They are so mean. Are you fucking kidding me?

Here's a newsflash for the youngsters and the people who have been asleep for 20 years:

You ACTUALLY think the media is being too hard on.....anyone??? Do you remember when the news was news? Do you? I am not even 40 years old, and I remember when they actually demanded actual answers from people. In fact, the only reason they did this is because.....get ready....because WE DID. I have yet to see one journalist be hard ENOUGH on any of these people. So grab your popcorn and get ready for your precious, cheesetastic, psuedo-patriotic BULLSHIT and maybe when nothing is said and nothing is done, you can climax in a frenzy stupid- worship.

What the hell has happened to this country when we think pussy/wussy reporters lke Katie Couric are mean? I'm doing spit takes all over these damn political threads.

Are you joking? You don't give your politicians a fucking good grilling live on air? Not even newsreaders?

Well, I guess the news is still the news here then.

You want one of these

He's a smarmy bastard, but an effective one.

Edited October 2, 2008 by longdistancewinner

[Dzldoc]

There is nothing wrong with animal planet

At least in animal land there are no politicians.

and it's not until tomorrow night....you got about 24 hours

So there's time for a change?

[Pb Derigable]

Kudos for an excellent post!

PB, I don't get the logic behind thinking Biden is a lesser candidate for buying into the bullshit when it was the Rebuplican leaders selling it....and good ole McCain took the bait hook, line and sinker too so they are on even ground as far as this silly point you are trying to drive home. It wobbled off the tee mate. Take a stroke and move on.

First of all, It is intersting you brought up golf. I have just won my Golf leauge.

If it was the G.O.P. leaders selling it and the Dems. leaders buying it. Who is the Idiot. The guy selling ice to the Eskimo or the Eskimo.

But since you don;t see the point. How will Biden answer that question without sinking Obama. I give examples

Answer A:Worst Decision I ever made

What sinks Obama: So you're foreign policy adviser was wrong both on the Iraq war and the surge.

Answer B.: I was tricked into believing bullshit.

What sinks Obama: So you're foreign policy adviser was tricked in the one thing he knew best.

AnswerC: I support the war, but thought it was mishandled, But is worth winning.

Whats sinks Obama: So you're foreign policy adviser is completely against you.

There is no discussion with McCain on the Foreign Policy issue. America agrees he can best handle any crisis that comes up. The only reason Obama is within 15%, if he is, is because of Biden, and Biden criticize Obama for his lack of Foreign policy.

Granted the same question can be brought up with Palin. Which is.

"Knowing what you know now, would you went into Iraq?"

Does her saying we should've went in puts a bad mark on her.

or

Does her saying we should'nt went in hurts McCain.

Obama could get away without admiting he made a mistake on the surge and winning the war, but Palin cannot.

[Electrophile]

Have you seen the footage on YouTube of Couric asking Sarah Palin about Supreme Court cases?

Yeesh.

[Medhb]

First of all, It is intersting you brought up golf. I have just won my Golf leauge.

If it was the G.O.P. leaders selling it and the Dems. leaders buying it. Who is the Idiot. The guy selling ice to the Eskimo or the Eskimo.

But since you don;t see the point. How will Biden answer that question without sinking Obama. I give examples

Answer A:Worst Decision I ever made

What sinks Obama: So you're foreign policy adviser was wrong both on the Iraq war and the surge.

Answer B.: I was tricked into believing bullshit.

What sinks Obama: So you're foreign policy adviser was tricked in the one thing he knew best.

AnswerC: I support the war, but thought it was mishandled, But is worth winning.

Whats sinks Obama: So you're foreign policy adviser is completely against you.

There is no discussion with McCain on the Foreign Policy issue. America agrees he can best handle any crisis that comes up. The only reason Obama is within 15%, if he is, is because of Biden, and Biden criticize Obama for his lack of Foreign policy.

Granted the same question can be brought up with Palin. Which is.

"Knowing what you know now, would you went into Iraq?"

Does her saying we should've went in puts a bad mark on her.

or

Does her saying we should'nt went in hurts McCain.

Obama could get away without admiting he made a mistake on the surge and winning the war, but Palin cannot.

Congrats on your win!! What did you shoot?

Well, I don't totally agree with your thoughts but you do have a point. And I applaud your ability to at least apply some logic to your reasoning (unlike others who shall remain nameless and faceless)

[allthekingshorses]

Thats why you like Obama, because he flip flops all the time. Why should we stand by a leader whom stands by his decision. but you can't fault Obama on that, he has yet to make a decision.

Atleast we know, Obama will make all his future decision based on his ability to get a second term. Like.

Why should we keep troops in Iraq, even though military leaders say so, when pulling them out will keep codepink money coming in.

Why should we extend the Bush tax cuts, even though most economic advisers say raising the wealthy taxes will hurt the economy, when a class warfare will get you more votes.

I like Obama for many reasons. Take a look at the debate for example. Barack remains focused, sticks to the point and backs up his choices. This whole flip flop thing is as I know I've said before, a tired tactic left over from the last election cycle. You want to talk flip-flopper?? Then you most definitely need to look at John McCain and please start with the strong fundementals of the economy on Sept. 15... I don't even think it was a day before flip flopped on that statement. That was the biggest flip flop I've ever seen.

Standing by a decision is great if it was the right decision. Selling the Iraq war based on false intelligence, and then making up new reasons why we went to war is not my idea of standing by a decision. It's more like someone's ego is more important than getting to the truth and doing things for the right reasons. Hey, we were told we were going to Iraq because Saddam was working on WMD, isn't that right? And then he had ties to Al Queada? Isn't that right? Well niether ended up being true. So where does that leave us... having to change the reason to Saddam is a brutal dictator. Standing by a decision? LYING? Or poor judgement? Whatever. Here's a little quote from your boy John McCain..

“My friends I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will – that will then prevent us – that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East.”

How telling that is. Hmmmm... Did we send our troops into conflict for oil? (ooh, I bet W. was pissed when he heard that one)

And as far as making decisions, how 'bout that Sarah Palin? That there girl sure can't make up her mind on where she stands now can't she?

As far as you codepink comment, I wasn't even aware of what that was. Is that the latest order of what to attack from "Rush O'Hannity"?

It's funny how your 2 last comments talk about the Iraq war and then you move onto raising taxes. Barack is not going to raise taxes, except on the top 5% and that is back to rates back in the Clinton years. No one else will see a tax increase. If you make less than $250 million, you will not see a tax increase.

So yes, you talk war then taxes.... who the _____ do you think pays for this war? TAXPAYERS! and let's not forget our children who will inherit this debt.

In summary, turns out we sent our troops to war for oil and we the people paid for it even though taxes are way too high but we can't leave because Bush made the decision to go to war and now we have to stay there because it's the non-flip-flopping thing to do.

Edited October 2, 2008 by allthekingshorses

[infidel]

Have you seen the footage on YouTube of Couric asking Sarah Palin about Supreme Court cases?

Yeesh.

Just watched it. . .

Yeesh^2!!!

[electricmage]

You are right, the bar is set so low for her that just getting through it without major embarrassment will be a smashing success for the Republicans.

I really don't think Sarah is stupid. I also don't think she is highly intelligent. She is of average intelligence. What her problem is her isolation and lack of information and knowledge. Put that together with a false sense of superiority and it's a scary combination. She really thinks that being the governer of Alaska qualifies her for this position. Actually the mayor of any large city probably has more awareness of real issues and practical experience than she does.

c'mom now, she reads all those forms of media.

[electricmage]

Of course your logic depends on the moderator being as biased towards Biden as Couric is.

Remember the adage, "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is"? What if you reverse that, making it, "if it looks too bad to be true, it probably is"?

Did you ever notice Couric's contempt for Palin in those interviews? I wonder what would happen if Palin called her on it.

She was well deserving of that contempt. Did you headr her answers. Couric was calling her out for the idiot she is.

At least she had the balls to press Palin, when Palin was trying to scoot past the questions. Were you watching the same thing?

Edited October 2, 2008 by electricmage

[solar]

Which is more painful?

Or...

[allthekingshorses]

^Hi Solar...

hahaha love it. Shockingly, Sarah takes the prize on that one for me... and only for trying to talk like she is qualified to be POTUS... to think of it is just laughable sometimes.

That Miss South Carolina clip never gets old. And I think what's his name... Mario Lopez? Should get major points for not laughing.

[I have got a horsey]

Which is more painful?

Or...

Wow...just two incredible clips...

I hadn't seen the Sarah Palin interview with Katie Couric, I mean even Republicans have to confess that she was completely out of her depth, totally lost in answering that question.

I mean she didn't even do what politicians normally do which is back away from the statement and talk about something else. She showed her political ineptitude by continuing to drive deeper into it.

Palin agrees with Couric in the interview about the Alaska being close to Russia comment that it was mocked...well if she knew it was mocked, then why the hell didn't she do what every other experienced politician would've done steered well away from it...but the silly bitch makes it worse for herself...

Because Couric then says "explain to my why that enhances your foreign policy credentials"...and Palin stupidly says very emphatically "well it certainly does..." puts her foot right in the fucking shit, then -cannot- explain at all. Any other politician would've deferred it or moved around it or downplayed it, but Palin stepped right in it.

All Palin had to say was "Well as Governor of Alaska, which is an isolated state from the rest of the USA, surrounded on both sides by two countries, it is important for me to be informed and up-to-date with political situations developing in those two countries. As Governor of Alaska it is important for me to be able to know about and deal with issues such as sea passages between Russia and Alaska, who's using those passages for for fishing and other commercial activities, potential military activities..." you know crap like that

Edited October 2, 2008 by I have got a horsey

[THE FIRST LEDZEP]

Sarah Palin Wins

[allthekingshorses]

I thought overall the media gave her a pass on this debate.

I cracked up a few times at her responses and I didn't even catch the whole thing. I watched most of the last 45 minutes.

"Say it ain't sooo JOE!" was that srplane who nailed that one? How'da know she was gonna say that?

She is so bizarre. Her and John McCain... a couple of Mavericks! I wish she would have busted out with the flute... I hope SNL at least does.

And one thing.... how is that baby always sleeping at these things.... Benadryl anyone?

I'll be impressed when the baby is totally fussing on stage.

[~tangerine~]

She was well deserving of that contempt. Did you headr her answers. Couric was calling her out for the idiot she is.

At least she had the balls to press Palin, when Palin was trying to scoot past the questions. Were you watching the same thing?

I know this is old news, but this had to be repeated. Katie did a good job, it's not her fault she couldn't believe how stupid Palin turned out to be. Can't name a magazine, don't they sell Time or Newsweek in Alaska? Can't name any Supreme Court cases? lol, she is too much.

[Electrophile]