The Athiest thread

[zepyep]

Hi all,

Suz,if your an Atheist,more power to you!

Were getting a wee bit off track here,...

Because he used them as a scapegoat. He couldn't blame the majority of German people, otherwise he couldn't have gotten to power. He used the Jews as a stepping stool upon which he grabbed the position of Fuhrer and he dominated Germany until his death. I am not arguing that he didn't go after Jews because of their religion...he msot certainly did. However, his religious beliefs did not dictate who he went after. His war and his genocide were not because of his religious beliefs and that is the point i am making.

Actually,it was the failed policies of the former German government and the treaty of Versailles of WW1 that led to WW2. Once the paper hanger got into power,he was able to carry out his plans.Which also included gypsies,homosexuals and Slavs.

Historically,Jewish people have been in Europe for 600+ years.Many of them considered themselves yo citizens of their countries first.

I'm not intolerant though...I just point out ignorance when I see it, which I have done multiple times. So what? That's not intolerance.

You're certainly not.You like a good 'squawk',nothing wrong with that !

KB

[wanna be drummer]

To a degree, couldn't all religions qualify as cults?

Much like a tribe, a cult,... an affiliation.

Mormonism is considered a cult, yet a religion by their own standards, I would imagine.

Mormonism is a religion to me.

Religions (IMO) have to have a deity and explanations for the world in some way. I get flak sometimes because I don't consider Buddhism a religion really, more of a philosophy.

Again, I don't consider Nazism a religion, more of a cult or political/social association.

[Dzldoc]

Valid point, i mean iv never put faith is something i couldnt see. So i dunno it a tough subject. But i agree alot of people now a days have no need for god like the older days. Maybe we are happy with the time we get.

What about AIR

[Shankly]

I posted this on the 'religious' thread, but it's also appropriate here ...

As Richard Dawkins put it, we are all anti-theist up to a point. Do you believe in the Sun God? Do you believe in the Spirit of the Forest? Do you believe in Hindu Gods? If you are a Christian, then the answer will be no. Athiests just go one god further.

There is just as much genuine evidence supporting the belief in any of the above (ie none), so why choose one over the other?

I choose not to believe in something for which there is no evidence, so I am an athiest, which I consider to be the 'default' position. I'm happy to change my mind if anyone can provide proper evidence (but I'm not going to hold my breath)

I've seen the arguments about Hitler many times before on various forums - he was certainly brought up a Catholic and at various times has been quoted as having religious beliefs and as being an atheist. The same is true of people like Einstein - his quotes are used by both theists and atheists alike to further their views - but it doesn't matter what Hitler or Einstein believed. It doesn't alter the truth and it doesn't add one iota of evidence to the existence of God or otherwise. The beliefs of one person, however influential, are not important. What is important is evidence. Solid, reliable, provable evidence and to my mind, no one has ever provided this for the existence of God.

[kabbalahone]

All my family were from Warsaw. I don't usually write it like that. I've always written it as Warszawa. It comes from the story that the city was named after a fisherman named Wars and his wife Sawa.

My family and I remain ignorant of how our Polish family died, because we lost contact after my family came to England. Shortly after we had no contact at all. All we have is the family name on the Warsaw Ghetto memorial.

Apparently the Germans have been compiling information to make survivors searching their history easier to find out about their families. My dad was told to change his name when he moved to Canada, and I use his original name as my last name on Facebook. It helps me feel connected.

I never heard that story about Warsaw and have only seen it spelled Warsaw. Apparently there was also a community galled Ganeff (theif). If you can get your hands on a book called "The Visitors", do so. It's really interesting. My dad said as hard a read as it is, it doesn't touch what really happened.

Did I tell you the story about the bullet that just grazed my dad's face? It was considered a miracle. Grazed his ear and face during a raid, did no other damage. I was upset when Radio Ramallah was closed down due to lack of funding. Their theme was "Music has no boundaries" and their frequency matched the numbers on my father's tatoo. I saw it as a symbol of affinity from the Palestinians. My parents don't believe peace is possible. I stick out like a sore thumb in my family.

I know an old man here in Nova Scotia who was one of the first captured. His tatoo is different, looks more hand done and has embellishments of symbols with the numbers. He is always saying it's going to happen again and I keep telling him to learn to never say that.

One of the things that really upset me when I first heard the song "Come with me" or more so freaked me out, is when PD sings "You can't run, you can't hide". That's something my mother ALWAYS said to me in those exact words.

[wanna be drummer]

I hate Richard Dawkins. He's obnoxious.

[JTM]

I hate Richard Dawkins. He's obnoxious.

I like Richard Dawkins. He's right.

[wanna be drummer]

I like Richard Dawkins. He's right.

I disagree

[Electrophile]

I don't know about Richard Dawkins, but Richard Dawson is pretty cool.

[Nathan]

Warning: OT post ahead.

Judaism is a religion.

I would like to point out that this is not technically true. Judaism is actually a culture.

From the Miriam Webster Dictionary:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture%5B1%5D

5 a: the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group ; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture> c: the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line> d: the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture> <changing the culture of materialism will take time — Peggy O'Mara>

Judaism has it's own language, it's own food laws, it's own country, it's own dress, it's own tradition, it's own people, it's own views, it's own genre of music (klezmer and cantorial [chazanim... pronounce with the hard "ch"]), it's own lineage, etc, etc, etc. Therefore, it is a culture.

And us Jews consider ourselves as part of a culture, not a religion. This is why if you are Atheist but have Judaism in your family (for some sects, on your Mother's side), then you are still considered "Jewish." The religion is simply one part- if the beginning- of the culture.

The reason you cannot include Christianity in this (that does NOT include Catholicism) is because Christianity does not have all of these things. It has no one language, no one people, no one view, no one lineage... it does have it's one genre of music (gospel), but that's it.

Other religions that are actually, by definition, cultures, include Islam, Catholicism, and Paganism. There are more, but I can't think of any more off the top of my head.

[longdistancewinner]

Warning: OT post ahead.

I would like to point out that this is not technically true. Judaism is actually a culture.

From the Miriam Webster Dictionary:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture%5B1%5D

5 a: the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group ; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture> c: the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line> d: the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture> <changing the culture of materialism will take time — Peggy O'Mara>

Judaism has it's own language, it's own food laws, it's own country, it's own dress, it's own tradition, it's own people, it's own views, it's own genre of music (klezmer and cantorial [chazanim... pronounce with the hard "ch"]), it's own lineage, etc, etc, etc. Therefore, it is a culture.

And us Jews consider ourselves as part of a culture, not a religion. This is why if you are Atheist but have Judaism in your family (for some sects, on your Mother's side), then you are still considered "Jewish." The religion is simply one part- if the beginning- of the culture.

The reason you cannot include Christianity in this (that does NOT include Catholicism) is because Christianity does not have all of these things. It has no one language, no one people, no one view, no one lineage... it does have it's one genre of music (gospel), but that's it.

Other religions that are actually, by definition, cultures, include Islam, Catholicism, and Paganism. There are more, but I can't think of any more off the top of my head.

So does that mean that you would consider me Jewish, even if my grandfather was the last one in our family? I always thought Judaism was inherant from female lineage.

[Suz]

You're assuming Nazism is a religion. I do not consider it to be one. A cult is more like it.

All religions are cults. Some have just become a tradition.

[Suz]

Exactly.

We have the only Holocaust memorial center in England, in Nottinghamshire, and all the local schools go. They must know what happened, so that they can make sure it should never happen again.

I, myself, can't do it. I couldn't bear to be there, given that he would've killed me just for having Jewish grandparents. As ignorant as it is, I'd rather not know how some of my family died, (because they did, being from Warsaw and being Jewish) I want to give them that dignity - or what was left of it.

I had planned on going to hear the speaker with my daughter, but when the day came I didn't think I could handle it and was trying to weasel out of it. My kid (who was about 12 at the time) said, "Mom, you HAVE to! You'll probably never get this chance again!" She was right and I'm so glad I went. I was wondering how that old dude could go around reliving these horrible, awful things....speaking all over the place about it. When it was over I knew why- so it never happens again. It's that simple.

[Electrophile]

All religions are cults. Some have just become a tradition.

I don't necessarily think I'd go that far. I think some religions can have cult-like factions. For example, the FLDS. That doesn't mean I think the Mormon church as a whole, is a cult.

Anytime a religion forces you to live separate from other people, forces intermarriage, restricts your dress/speech/forms of entertainment (books, music, etc.,) and you're beholden to one person that calls themselves a prophet or says that they are the divine image of God.......that would be a cult. Very few traditional organized religions fit that mold.

[Nathan]

So does that mean that you would consider me Jewish, even if my grandfather was the last one in our family? I always thought Judaism was inherant from female lineage.

Well that depends. More liberal sects (many Conservative Jews and all Reform Jews) will consider you to be part of the Jewish culture. I would consider you to be part of the Jewish culture (I'm Conservative, though I lean more towards the left, to Reform).

More traditional sects would ask two questions:

1. Is this your maternal grandfather (your mom's dad) or your paternal grandfather (your dad's dad)?

-If the answer to this question is paternal, then traditional sects would not consider you Jewish.

-If the answer to this question is maternal, then move on to question two:

2. Was his wife Jewish?

-If yes, then you are Jewish in the eyes of all sects of Judaism.

-If no, then traditional sects would not consider you Jewish.

[wanna be drummer]

All religions are cults. Some have just become a tradition.

I don't believe that at all. Some are yes, but not all.

I'd argue Charles Manson's "Family" was a cult, but it was not a religion.

[Suz]

Warning: OT post ahead.

I would like to point out that this is not technically true. Judaism is actually a culture.

From the Miriam Webster Dictionary:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture%5B1%5D

5 a: the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group ; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture> c: the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line> d: the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture> <changing the culture of materialism will take time — Peggy O'Mara>

Judaism has it's own language, it's own food laws, it's own country, it's own dress, it's own tradition, it's own people, it's own views, it's own genre of music (klezmer and cantorial [chazanim... pronounce with the hard "ch"]), it's own lineage, etc, etc, etc. Therefore, it is a culture.

And us Jews consider ourselves as part of a culture, not a religion. This is why if you are Atheist but have Judaism in your family (for some sects, on your Mother's side), then you are still considered "Jewish." The religion is simply one part- if the beginning- of the culture.

The reason you cannot include Christianity in this (that does NOT include Catholicism) is because Christianity does not have all of these things. It has no one language, no one people, no one view, no one lineage... it does have it's one genre of music (gospel), but that's it.

Other religions that are actually, by definition, cultures, include Islam, Catholicism, and Paganism. There are more, but I can't think of any more off the top of my head.

Thanks, Nathan I shouldn't have said that without learning more. I only know a few Jewish people and I've only played in music groups with them (never discussed Judaism).

[longdistancewinner]

Well that depends. More liberal sects (many Conservative Jews and all Reform Jews) will consider you to be part of the Jewish culture. I would consider you to be part of the Jewish culture (I'm Conservative, though I lean more towards the left, to Reform).

More traditional sects would ask two questions:

1. Is this your maternal grandfather (your mom's dad) or your paternal grandfather (your dad's dad)?

-If the answer to this question is paternal, then traditional sects would not consider you Jewish.

-If the answer to this question is maternal, then move on to question two:

2. Was his wife Jewish?

-If yes, then you are Jewish in the eyes of all sects of Judaism.

-If no, then traditional sects would not consider you Jewish.

Well, my paternal grandfather was the Jewish one. So, I guess I wouldn't be. I don't know how important the traditional sects are (and by that, I guess I mean, are they seen as a bit old and archaic or is their word law?) Though it is strange that I would even be considered Jewish at all...

[Suz]

To me they all seem like cults of varying degrees. I should have put it that way.

I wanted to share something else re: the holocaust survivor my daughter and I heard: He said it happened very slowly; first he wasn't allowed to play sports in school. Then they had to give up their pets. Jews were no longer allowed to have pets. He said he has never forgotten seeing an elderly lady carrying her birdcage with her bird in it. They had to walk down the street with their pets while people taunted them. He said a lot of other stuff I can't allow myself to think about right now because I will cry, and I have to go meet someone for dinner. But his point about the sports and the pets was the slow dehumanization of Jews. Can you even imagine having to turn in your pets? Fuck it, I'm crying. I cannot even imagine my kid turning in her kitty, and I didn't even talk about him seeing people having to turn in their children.

My point is that when you assume the favor of an almighty all powerful being, you can do whatever the hell you want to people. Or when you assume the power of an allmighty being. We all know this and see it happening all over the world all the time. The hitler youth didn't think they were facists- they thought they were patriotic. Think about it. Doesn't it creep you out? It sure creeps me out. Dehumanization is so easy. I did it yesterday by calling srplane a fuckin idiot.

[longdistancewinner]

To me they all seem like cults of varying degrees. I should have put it that way.

I wanted to share something else re: the holocaust survivor my daughter and I heard: He said it happened very slowly; first he wasn't allowed to play sports in school. Then they had to give up their pets. Jews were no longer allowed to have pets. He said he has never forgotten seeing an elderly lady carrying her birdcage with her bird in it. They had to walk down the street with their pets while people taunted them. He said a lot of other stuff I can't allow myself to think about right now because I will cry, and I have to go meet someone for dinner. But his point about the sports and the pets was the slow dehumanization of Jews. Can you even imagine having to turn in your pets? Fuck it, I'm crying. I cannot even imagine my kid turning in her kitty, and I didn't even talk about him seeing people having to turn in their children.

My point is that when you assume the favor of an almighty all powerful being, you can do whatever the hell you want to people. Or when you assume the power of an allmighty being. We all know this and see it happening all over the world all the time. The hitler youth didn't think they were facists- they thought they were patriotic. Think about it. Doesn't it creep you out? It sure creeps me out. Dehumanization is so easy. I did it yesterday by calling srplane a fuckin idiot.

That is so terrible. I don't let myself read, hear, see anything to do with the Holocaust. It's too heartbreaking for me. I watched a programme called Who Do You Think You Are? - it's about famous people's family trees - and in one episode it was about Jerry Springer. He was born in London, because Britain was one of the very places that would allow Jews in after his family fled Germany. And both his grandmother's were murdered back in Poland, one in a camp and one in the ghetto. I sobbed my eyes out when he went back to see the train that took one of them to her death. It was the most heartbreaking thing I'd ever seen. I couldn't watch it all the way through.

[wanna be drummer]

Mussolini actually told Hitler that the Italians wouldn't give up their Jews, and give up the Jews they did not. It wasn't until his death that Hitler sent in Germans to round them up.

At least there's one positive in Benito's life...

[Nathan]

Thanks, Nathan I shouldn't have said that without learning more. I only know a few Jewish people and I've only played in music groups with them (never discussed Judaism).

No problem.

Well, my paternal grandfather was the Jewish one. So, I guess I wouldn't be. I don't know how important the traditional sects are (and by that, I guess I mean, are they seen as a bit old and archaic or is their word law?) Though it is strange that I would even be considered Jewish at all...

Well, of course the traditional sects see themselves as law and all that. But many Conservatives and all Reform Jews consider them old and archaic, mainly because they don't adapt to present and future advances... they fight them.

In their eyes, yes, you are right in saying you aren't Jewish. However, if you ever decided to jump into your Jewish heritage, many Conservatives and all Reform Jews would welcome you with open arms. Like I said: to them (and to me) you are Jewish, even if you don't believe in God. You have Judaism in your lineage, so that makes you part of the culture to us more liberal Jews.

I should also tell you that in the eyes of traditional sects of Judaism I'm not Jewish either, but a "convert" (which they consider separate from Jews with Jewish lineage from the mother's side). It is my father who's Jewish (indeed, he's clergy). My mother is a convert and her side of the family is Catholic... so Catholic, in fact, that her Dad (my grandfather) is a Deacon.

To me they all seem like cults of varying degrees. I should have put it that way.

I honestly have to disagree with you, though mainly because I do no believe that entire religions are cults, but sects within them are cults. I would NOT call Christianity a cult, by I would certainly call the Westboro Baptist Church a cult. I would NOT call Judaism a cult, but I would certainly call Lubavitch and Chasidim cults.

I wanted to share something else re: the holocaust survivor my daughter and I heard: He said it happened very slowly; first he wasn't allowed to play sports in school. Then they had to give up their pets. Jews were no longer allowed to have pets. He said he has never forgotten seeing an elderly lady carrying her birdcage with her bird in it. They had to walk down the street with their pets while people taunted them. He said a lot of other stuff I can't allow myself to think about right now because I will cry, and I have to go meet someone for dinner. But his point about the sports and the pets was the slow dehumanization of Jews. Can you even imagine having to turn in your pets? Fuck it, I'm crying. I cannot even imagine my kid turning in her kitty, and I didn't even talk about him seeing people having to turn in their children.

First off...

Second, it was a very scary, sad time. Technically he was a cousin once removed, but I did have a Holocaust survivor in my family (on my Dad's side), and he told some of the saddest stories I have ever heard. He died of old age when I was twelve. He did, however, make it to the AYSC's (Atlanta Young Singers of Callanwolde) performance of the "I Never Saw Another Butterfly" Holocaust-remembrance program (I was in AYSC at the time and had a couple [singing] solos as well) at The Temple. It was the last thing he ever saw before he died.

My point is that when you assume the favor of an almighty all powerful being, you can do whatever the hell you want to people. Or when you assume the power of an allmighty being. We all know this and see it happening all over the world all the time. The hitler youth didn't think they were facists- they thought they were patriotic. Think about it. Doesn't it creep you out? It sure creeps me out. Dehumanization is so easy. I did it yesterday by calling srplane a fuckin idiot.

This may be true in theory, but is not true in general practice. You will never find a Jew who believes this, all the Catholics I know do not believe this, and many Christian sects do not believe this.

There are some, but they are a minority. Vocal, yes, but small.

[longdistancewinner]

Well, of course the traditional sects see themselves as law and all that. But many Conservatives and all Reform Jews consider them old and archaic, mainly because they don't adapt to present and future advances... they fight them.

In their eyes, yes, you are right in saying you aren't Jewish. However, if you ever decided to jump into your Jewish heritage, many Conservatives and all Reform Jews would welcome you with open arms. Like I said: to them (and to me) you are Jewish, even if you don't believe in God. You have Judaism in your lineage, so that makes you part of the culture to us more liberal Jews.

I should also tell you that in the eyes of traditional sects of Judaism I'm not Jewish either, but a "convert" (which they consider separate from Jews with Jewish lineage from the mother's side). It is my father who's Jewish (indeed, he's clergy). My mother is a convert and her side of the family is Catholic... so Catholic, in fact, that her Dad (my grandfather) is a Deacon.

Thanks for that info. I don't know much about the religious aspects - save the basics - but I know that on someone level I am bonded to Judaism. Even my Anglicized surname is still quite Jewish.

I think my family were Hasidic Jews (not sure what that even means, Wiki just confuses me even more), what does that mean in terms of Conservative or Traditional?

[Nathan]

Thanks for that info. I don't know much about the religious aspects - save the basics - but I know that on someone level I am bonded to Judaism. Even my Anglicized surname is still quite Jewish.

I'm glad I could help.

I think my family were Hasidic Jews (not sure what that even means, Wiki just confuses me even more), what does that mean in terms of Conservative or Traditional?

Very traditional. Very right-wing. Chasidim, I believe, is the strictest, most old-school sect of Judaism that exists. Their view of the world and the way they live may seem (and does seem... to me and other Jews I know, at least) incredibly archaic to the outside world. They live as much by the 613 commandments and other laws of the Torah as they possibly can.

If you'd like, here's info (from Wikipedia) on all the different Jewish denominations:

Jewish_Denominations

You can read a lot more in that article, especially what different sects of Judaism consider as Jewish Identity.

[longdistancewinner]

I'm glad I could help.

Very traditional. Very right-wing. Chasidim, I believe, is the strictest, most old-school sect of Judaism that exists. Their view of the world and the way they live may seem (and does seem... to me and other Jews I know, at least) incredibly archaic to the outside world. They live as much by the 613 commandments and other laws of the Torah as they possibly can.

If you'd like, here's info (from Wikipedia) on all the different Jewish denominations:

Jewish_Denominations

You can read a lot more in that article, especially what different sects of Judaism consider as Jewish Identity.

Oh, thank you! I'll read them.

I say I think they may have been Hasidic purely because the area they lived in, now, is a highly populated Hasidic area. I can't speak for the time when my grandad lived there. I'm only going by assumption.