Jimmy Page II "Stormtrooper" Limited Edition Sculpture

[59LesPaul]

Real quickly...

More substantially, as Knebby said, Jimmy took an interest in this stuff. But kab, you also have to remember that the Germans also bombed the hell out of London during WWII and also affected many of these rock stars' parents as well. .

...or the rock stars themselves....

"I was born in a crossfire hurricane"......

[Mr E]

This thread reminded me of a brilliant Mitchell and Webb sketch:

[longdistancewinner]

As a descendant of Polish Jew's I don't feel offended in the slightest. I've always taken it for what it was - a rock star's costume. I was always under the impression that he wore the outfit for shock value and to see just how many people would think it was 'cool', especially given that it was him wearing it. A lot of people tend to take a prolific or iconic person's word and values as law, and if he should wear something that isn't agreeable? Well, you can either stand on your own and say it's a pretty disgusting outfit, or you can say that it was awesome 'cause Jimmy Page wore it. I'd like to think he was challenging them.

On the other hand, you're looking at a man, strung out on heroin, who needed a new costume, since he was ill on his other one. He's always courted controversy, and I genuinely think (and hope) he wasn't thinking about the connotations during that time.

I don't take anything to do with Nazi's lightly, but, if he hadn't have worn that outfit, who knows how long that bloody Poppy Suit would've gone unclean?

And, for what it's worth, a few of you have mentioned that many rock stars were raised in post-war Britain, specifically, London. It's not comparable to the Holocaust, but it did do some pretty serious damage. I can imagine being raised in that environment - particularly when it comes to rebuilding entire areas (for how long were they rebuilding London, et all?) - can add fascination to it.

[Aquamarine]

I wrote two lengthy replies, and my computer lost them both, so before I give up entirely--

I would never deny Jimmy's right to wear whatever he likes--that's one of the freedoms this war was about. I just don't want any images of it anywhere near me.

[BIGDAN]

"I'll tell you something about history. From the beginning of time, the bad guys always had the best uniforms. Napoleon, the Confederates, the Nazis. They all had killer uniforms. I mean, the SS uniform is fucking brilliant! They were the rock stars of that time. What you're gonna do? They just look good. Don't tell me, I'm a Nazi 'cause I have uniforms. In 1967 I had my first black girlfriend and a lot of more ever since then. I just don't understand racism, I never thought it was an option."

This is getting way out of hand, and way out of proportion.

Just to clear up what 'mos6507' said, Nazi's=100% bad guys, Napoleon=50% bad guys, Confederates=100% good guys, Union=100% bad guys.

As for all the Jewish people on here with issues, you need to look at the cold hard facts.

1. A German "Stormtrooper" (Assult-Man in English) is a soldier that was concieved in March 1915, during the First World War, not 1939-1945. The "SS" is short for "Schutz-Staffel" meaning "Protective-Squadron" in English.

2. Is the figure or Jimmy for that matter, wearing a German Officers cap with a "Deaths Head" or a "Black-White-Red" roundel or nothing under the Eagle with Wings Displayed as this would prove if it was an SS or Wehrmacht (German Army) cap.

3. Did Jimmy wear the cap and uniform of a member of the German Army, German Airforce (As the cover of Zep 2 conveys) or the SS, until someone can verify this by either asking Jimmy himself or seeing for themselves either the said hat/cap or the figure we should reserve judgement.

As far as i am concerned if it was a German Army or Airforce cap we should leave it as that, either it was about the Zep 2 cover or was tongue in cheek, and so give Jimmy the benefit of the doubt.

If its an SS cap then that is a very different thing entirely, done in very bad taste and further worsened by the action figure being put on sale, and you people who it offends the most should campaign for the removal of the said item from sale and demand an appology from all concerned.

Kind Regards too you all, Danny

[kabbalahone]

Actually yes. Many relatives of mine were killed there and some weren't given the luxury of getting to a camp for a chance at survival and were slaughtered in the fields and pushed into holes. They were Non-Jewish Poles, and just some of the 2-3 million Non-Jewish Poles killed by the Nazis that have been forgotten due to political correctness so as not to take away from the coveted number of 6 million.

Go on as you may but in the interim, and with all due respect, try and get over yourself.

Ha ha, it isn't myself. If you ever experience the ressurection of souls

let me know...

[guitarmy]

I wrote two lengthy replies, and my computer lost them both, so before I give up entirely--

I would never deny Jimmy's right to wear whatever he likes--that's one of the freedoms this war was about. I just don't want any images of it anywhere near me.

I hate when that happens!

I didn't mean to accuse you of that, so I'm sorry if I brought that upon you.

The reality for many people is that whether you want to see such images or not, you will have to deal with them. Perhaps avoidance is a good way of dealing with them. I think that when you've either been traumatized or adversely affected by something, you have to do whatever works for best for you to move on.

[shnflacwav]

I don't hang on to the anger. I've done a lot of work to prevent a repeat performance.

It's just as far as Pagey's concerned....

he messed up. Let's just say he should have listened more carefully all along

This must really piss you off:

[FireOpal]

Real quickly...

First the more inconsequential point: This is not a doll or action figure, it's a figurine/sculpture - porcelain and similar to Hummels or Precious Moments...but of rock stars. It's a piece of artwork, not a toy.

More substantially, as Knebby said, Jimmy took an interest in this stuff. But kab, you also have to remember that the Germans also bombed the hell out of London during WWII and also affected many of these rock stars' parents as well. A similar sort of fascination can be seen in The Wall - Roger Waters' imagery with Pink, the uses of blacks and reds, the interlocked hammer logo, the gestapo-like scenes of brutality at the rally/concert. Townshend, as well, often wrote of what it was like to be a child of these WWII survivors.

Now, I am not defending JP's outfit choice or equating what happened at Auschwitz to this at all - the level of atrocities are far greater and more culturally impacting with the Holocaust. But, at the same time, surviving Hitler and the Nazis also played a vital role in shaping post-WWII Britain and America for 25 years, and that did manifest itself in the artwork of the children of this generation in the mid- to late-60s. Only JP can answer exactly what went into the decision to wear that.

It's a fascinating subject to see how images and experiences from WWII filter through the work of so many great English songwriters of that period: Pete Townshend, Bowie, Roger Waters, Mick Jagger and John Lennon to name a few. One does sort of wonder if Jimmy was exorcising some demons from his childhood by using the terror iconography of the Nazis.

[BIGDAN]

1. Smeone mentioned London being heavily bombed.

2. Did you know that Hitler had relatives living in Liverpool

3. Paul McCartney released "Send my Regards to Broad Street" on my parents anniversary.

4. He also released "McCartney" on Hitler's birthday.

5. There is way more to this than meets the eye and it did NOT end in 45

1. I think youll find Hamburg, Dresden and Berlin got it far worse.

2. So what, it proves he was very commited to his war dont it?

3. And!

4. And again!

5. It didnt end in 1945, you are right there, mant of the holocaust survivors took their anger and transposed it upon the Palestinians, how do you explain that? Two wrongs making a right then?

The Nazis took from you just as you now take from the Palistinians. All the worlds Jews need to stop all the crying and try to build a better world instead of wallowing in self pity while at the same time as making life for the Palistinians no better than the Jews had in Germany during the war. You had it bad from 1933 to 1945 12 years, the palistinians have had it bad from 1948 to 2008, 60 years, enough said.

Regards, Danny

PS. and all this over an action figure, if it was my kids i would throw the figure away in the rubbish and stop all the bickering.

[FireOpal]

Danny, what's this about the English "hating" the Welsh?! I thought (some) English just mocked the Welsh, in a friendly way, for being rustic and (supposedly) unsophisticated.

[Knebby]

I hope he's havin a laugh. I don't know any English who hate the Welsh.

Plenty of Welsh and Scots who wish us misfortune in sport though.

[BIGDAN]

Danny, what's this about the English "hating" the Welsh?! I thought (some) English just mocked the Welsh, in a friendly way, for being rustic and (supposedly) unsophisticated.

Hi 'FireOpal'

I was just joshing, the English hate no one really, its every one else hateing us that gets my goat. I was just trying, unsucessfully, to compare what Jimmy did with his Stormtroopers cap, pissing off the Jewish fans, and his dragon suit pissing off the English ones. What i really meant is this, you can only get pissed off if you want to take offence, if you are like us English, you know top of the evolutionary tree, then you cant take offence because it is undignifed and beneath you, if you know what i mean. As for the Welsh being "rustic and (supposedly) unsophisticated" its totaly true.

Regards, Danny

[Otto Masson]

and all this over an action figure, if it was my kids i would throw the figure away in the rubbish and stop all the bickering.

Well, I don't get angry or anything.... I just don't like it. It certainly is an iconic look though, and that quote from Lemmy reminds me of something Jeff Beck said in an interview that I remember reading about 20 years ago: he simply defined Rock as The Outrageous. He has a point, and so does Lemmy, and for better or for worse, shock value has always been important in Rock. But Jimmy's Stormtrooper look to me signifies losing control; it's a statement that isn't a statement.

[BIGDAN]

Well, I don't get angry or anything.... I just don't like it. It certainly is an iconic look though, and that quote from Lemmy reminds me of something Jeff Beck said in an interview that I remember reading about 20 years ago: he simply defined Rock as The Outrageous. He has a point, and so does Lemmy, and for better or for worse, shock value has always been important in Rock. But Jimmy's Stormtrooper look to me signifies losing control; it's a statement that isn't a statement.

Hi 'Otto Masson'

Read my post "73" and tell me what you think then please. I aint gonna pass judgement untill what i have asked is verified, i aint got an agenda like some others on here and i dont get offended very easily, i dont think that the Nazis were anything but a visit from hell, but it was Italian Tailors who designed their uniforms, and i think thay were the best looking uniforms of WW2. The uniforms dont fill me with dread as i have not been traumatised by the Nazis, i can understand those that have been though, and they should complain and demand appologies if they feel that bad about it.

I will now be writing to Robert to ask for an apology for him using the "Welsh flag" in TSRTS and for Jimmy using the "Dragon symbol" and i dont think.

[BIGDAN]

I hope he's havin a laugh. I don't know any English who hate the Welsh.

Plenty of Welsh and Scots who wish us misfortune in sport though.

Oi Knebby,

Bit rude there mate, i do have a name, and i might get offended if you dont use it, then again i might not.

As i said before, the Engilsh hate nobody, its them that hate us that gets my goat, smallminded minnows with nothing else going on in their tiny minds and lives and nothing going on in their small insignificant countries so they are brought up by their just the same parents to hate the English, rebuild Hadrians wall, dig Offas Dyke deeper and make the Irish sea as wide as the Atlantic, thats what i say.

As for the Welsh, Scotts and Irish wishing us misfortune in sport, and everything else, well where would they be without the English, living in the Stone Age i would imagine. They are just jealious of our sucess in sport, since we havent used their players in our football teams their National teams have been crap, just like ours.

And they must be really jealious of the fact that we produced national treasures like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, WESTHAM UNITED, WOLVERHAMTON WANDERERS and HULL (For Miss Honnydripper).

Well Knebby am i having a laugh? you bet. Regards, Danny

[Aquamarine]

Well, we've been here before, too, 'cos I remember saying that I'm Welsh and I don't hate the English or know any family members or friends who do. I'm not Jewish, though, so I don't have an "agenda" for being pissed off at this doll or artwork or whatever. I guess it just shows that enough time has elapsed that people can wonder why other people don't like the thing--if he'd been wearing an Al Queda uniform (assuming they all wore something cool-looking), and it was closer to 9-11, more people might feel the same way.

Oh, and no worries, guitarmy, I'm not blaming you for my computer misfortunes.

[cabal200]

I actually kind of like it and don't associate it with anything but Jimmy. I like the design better than the bellbottom dragon suit one.

The real thing that bothers me with this one is the apparent "kissy-face" he appears to be making.

[BIGDAN]

Well, we've been here before, too, 'cos I remember saying that I'm Welsh and I don't hate the English or know any family members or friends who do. I'm not Jewish, though, so I don't have an "agenda" for being pissed off at this doll or artwork or whatever. I guess it just shows that enough time has elapsed that people can wonder why other people don't like the thing--if he'd been wearing an Al Queda uniform (assuming they all wore something cool-looking), and it was closer to 9-11, more people might feel the same way.

Oh, and no worries, guitarmy, I'm not blaming you for my computer misfortunes.

Hi 'Aquamarine'

I wasnt pointing the finger at you know? but just because you and your family dont hate the English doesnt mean thousands of others dont.

This "I'm a Jew so i must be a victim" is getting a bit wearing too some folk on here, i'm not one of them i hasten to add. But we dont have to carry the woes of our forfathers forever do we. I mean it seems every little country, religion, sect, race, colour has a big chip on its shoulders, get rid of them and enjoy your lives instead of living a life of self pity, but getting all upset when other dont feel your pain because in reality you should not have any, you carry it like a cross.

The people who were the ones that it happened too i feel sorry for, but not their kids or grandkids, or in the case of the Scotts, Irish, Welsh, and Black people, how many generations do you need to go back to carry the injustices of your forbearers. Its like me getting pissed off and hateing the Italians for what the Romans did to Boudica and the Iceni, of whith i am a proud tribal member.

So people get real, its only a doll, Regards, Danny

PS. As for Al Queda uniforms being worn by Rock Stars, i dont think so, well not untill Gucci does a line in bed sheets.

[The Rover]

As a descendant of Polish Jew's I don't feel offended in the slightest. I've always taken it for what it was - a rock star's costume. I was always under the impression that he wore the outfit for shock value and to see just how many people would think it was 'cool', especially given that it was him wearing it. A lot of people tend to take a prolific or iconic person's word and values as law, and if he should wear something that isn't agreeable? Well, you can either stand on your own and say it's a pretty disgusting outfit, or you can say that it was awesome 'cause Jimmy Page wore it. I'd like to think he was challenging them.

On the other hand, you're looking at a man, strung out on heroin, who needed a new costume, since he was ill on his other one. He's always courted controversy, and I genuinely think (and hope) he wasn't thinking about the connotations during that time.

I don't take anything to do with Nazi's lightly, but, if he hadn't have worn that outfit, who knows how long that bloody Poppy Suit would've gone unclean?

And, for what it's worth, a few of you have mentioned that many rock stars were raised in post-war Britain, specifically, London. It's not comparable to the Holocaust, but it did do some pretty serious damage. I can imagine being raised in that environment - particularly when it comes to rebuilding entire areas (for how long were they rebuilding London, et all?) - can add fascination to it.

Speaking of a performer's "Shock" Value....

I can easily think of what Madonna has worn with reference to the Christian Church.....

[Chicago]

QUOTE (Chicago @ Oct 15 2008, 07:06 PM)

I was at this show and while it was initially shocking to see him dressed in this attire, he played great and nobody left in protest.

You wouldn't believe the shit I went through growing a daughter of 2 Auschwitz survivors.

It would have been hard enoough if it ended in 45, but it just went underground

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The date of this show fell on Easter Sunday and I presume many Christians would have been equally offended if taken in a personal manner. Hitler did a lot of damage to them as well. Page was going for the shock value and it obviously worked. He's not Lawrence Welk.

[Freethinker]

I actually kind of like it and don't associate it with anything but Jimmy. I like the design better than the bellbottom dragon suit one.

The real thing that bothers me with this one is the apparent "kissy-face" he appears to be making.

well, i present to you... the kissy-face

and i, imho, like the look

no need to get uptight about it, just a bit of fun.

[Virginia]

I've never liked that outfit, and am surprised that Jimmy approved of this statue.

The thing is, with Jimmy in the days of Led Zeppelin every thing would have a meaning. However you construed it, and whether you liked it or not, there would be meaning in the details. It was all very deliberate - astrological signs, poppies, etc. Which is why it's hard not to see this outfit - even if it was only worn on stage once, in Chicago, April 10, 1977 - as a statement; and if that's what it is, the problem is that it's unclear, which is just not appropriate.

Yep, there have been other incidents, it's not just Jimmy. Siouxsie wore a swastika back in the punk era. I am a fan, but it was stupid.

The first few times I saw pictures of him in that outfit, I didn't pick up on the fact that it was a Nazi hat. I just thought it was just a biker cap. But yeah, I agree it was in bad taste. I'm not at all interested in buying one of these.

[aen27]

Personally, I love the outfit. Jimmy looks so hot in it. Why are people so upset with the hat? Not only are there pictures of Jimmy or Robert wearing it. There are pictures of Audrey Hamiliton on Robert's lap wearing it, as well. I don't even think about WWII when I see it. I have the 'poppy' statue anyway. I am suprised Jimmy approved of a second one.

[mos6507]

And lets not forget that sometimes people have a fascination with things BECAUSE they find them abhorrent or hard to understand.

And in rock you have bands that try so hard to shock that it becomes self-parody. Like GWAR

Or slipknot.

Or Marylin Manson.

Or just plain stupid: