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Rationalizing


guitarmy

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Hey, enough with the sarcasm, OK? I was just making the point that a new name inaugurated a new band (and suggesting that the same happen here). I wasn't suggesting you didn't know that. By the same token, I am not remotely surprised that revision improves most forms of art. Writing is part of what I do for a living.

Don't what has sparked this, but peace, OK? :peace:

Woah hold on a second. I wasn't being sarcastic. I was just really surprised that I didn't think of Led Zeppelin's original start in the way you put it.

That's the thing about the internet, so damn ambiguous sometimes.

Peace, always.

Also, the side note was just for everyone and not just you. I wrote it as a side note because it was off topic, and because it came up (either something someone said or something that came out of my brain)

I just feel that a lot of people could write something if they realized that writing isn't as simple as writing it down once. I think most people assume that good writers only write it down once or something. That's the side note I wanted to convey and I didn't mean anything against you.

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Woah hold on a second. I wasn't being sarcastic. I was just really surprised that I didn't think of Led Zeppelin's original start in the way you put it.

That's the thing about the internet, so damn ambiguous sometimes.

Peace, always.

Also, the side note was just for everyone and not just you. I wrote it as a side note because it was off topic, and because it came up (either something someone said or something that came out of my brain)

I just feel that a lot of people could write something if they realized that writing isn't as simple as writing it down once. I think most people assume that good writers only write it down once or something. That's the side note I wanted to convey and I didn't mean anything against you.

Looks like I logged back on at the right time. :D

Sorry, mate, obviously I just misunderstood you. You're right, meanings can come across in very ambiguous ways (especially when discussing Plant and/or Zep!). Hopefully this isn't ambiguous, anyway-- :beer:

Oh, and Knebby--verrrrrry cool, indeed! B)

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The only thing thats sad is you, you foolish child . Every fan of every group has a favorite member you do too you child . Yours is Plant , so your mad at me for saying I think Plant was more in control of that album. He was he came in with the majority of the songs thats a fact. your very sad .

Name calling only belittles you. It doesn't add to your argument. It takes away from it. It makes me think, "if the best he can do is call someone a 'little child'", then he's not worth listening to.

You can call me some names if you want, but sometimes it's best just to rethink things and move on.

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amazing Knebby!! I'm sorry for being petty but I always thought the lyrics are "pilot of the storm who leaves no trace like thoughts inside a dream but nevermind... :rolleyes:

No you're absolutely right, they are - he tweaked them a little here as he is wont to do. B)

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When it comes to writing a melody, I was wondering how one goes about writing a melody if they aren't playing an instrument?

Also, in Robert's case, which songs did Robert write the melody? And which album was the first album he wrote all the lyrics for a song?

I'm not trying to minimize what Robert has done, but I think it's provable that Led Zeppelin can move on without him.

It's clear that he wants to do the same.

Ahh, such a guitar player! 'Thank You' was the first full Robert lyric, as the story goes. I'm looking at the credits from Physical Graffitti and Presence, and Jonesy's credited on only a handful of songs (5 of the 22 total): "In My Time of Dying" (which is actually a Robert Johnson song that Dylan did on his first record but is probably older than America itself); "Trampled Underfoot"; "In the Light"; "Night Flight"; "Boogie with Stu" (a Richie Valens song); and "Royal Orleans." Plant is credited on everything but "Bron-yr-aur".

Page brought quite a few things in completed "Song Remains the Same/Rain Song"; "Ten Years Gone" - but I'd hate to imagine what another vocalist might've done with those melodies and lyrics. Not having Robert is a crushing blow to what they had hoped to do, I think. It don't see how the new project won't be hurt in some way by it. I hope not too badly.

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How can you say that Led Zeppelin can move without him?

You ARE minimizing what he brought to the Zeppelin table.Every ounce of it!

I have no problem with the 3 J's getting out there and kicking ass with a new singer and playing Zep tunes,(that's a given).I would really like to hear some new music from them,first and foremost....What if it's crap? Do you want to be responsible for Zeps tag on it?I don't think so.Then again,"crap" is subjective.

The name Led Zeppelin implies and means Jimmy,Robert,John Paul and John.It's not going to happen.I would bet my life on it.

I don't think I'm minimizing Plant, but I do think I'm maximizing Page and Jones. Plant was not all of Led Zeppelin, and I'm sure there were many instances where his input was minimal. I also think this is a reason why he doesn't want to do it. Less creative control that he's grown used to.

While you are so sure that they wouldn't call it Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant, I don't think being sure is enough of a reason.

The real question is, what would you do if they did call it Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant?

I'm not worried about the new material.

The fact is that Robert Plant doesn't want to do Led Zeppelin. Just because Robert doesn't want to do it, doesn't mean someone else can't.

Robert can get what he wants and move on. The 3Js can get what they want as Led Zeppelin with a new singer.

We shouldn't just assume they haven't considered it just because people will say "that's not Led Zeppelin".

Led Zeppelin is everything it was and it might even become something new. I think it's a possibility that gets overlooked and ruled out too easily.

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I think Jimmy held back on Walking Into Clarksdale, to accomodate Robert. If you look at Coverdale/Page, Jimmy ripped on that album. I don't think Robert wants to sing or even can sing like that anymore. Don't get me wrong, Plant can still sing, but not to the level of where he once was. I do believe that a new younger singer will breath life into a new album. I don't care what they call themselves, that is up to them, but without Robert I hope it is not Zeppelin. I can't wait to hear new music from Page and Jonsey. I bet it will be the best post Zep album from any member.

I think Page was hoping to be inspired working with Steve Albini (why go to him if otherwise) whose recording techniques rival Page's. Check out Shellac or Big Black - the guitar noise is sick, doesn't even sound like a guitar. Albini/Page were not a good match for Plant, though its sounds as though Robert took the spirit of that project and it ended up on his later works. I felt bad for Jimmy when Mighty Rearranger came out and was so good. Seemed like it was what Walking to Clarksdale could've been.

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No you're absolutely right, they are - he tweaked them a little here as he is wont to do. B)

what a relief :lol: ... I've heard this song so many times in my life that I just couldn't believe that these are the real lyrics... dear Robert always improvise with the lyrics :D

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I don't think I'm minimizing Plant, but I do think I'm maximizing Page and Jones. Plant was not all of Led Zeppelin, and I'm sure there were many instances where his input was minimal. I also think this is a reason why he doesn't want to do it. Less creative control that he's grown used to.

While you are so sure that they wouldn't call it Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant, I don't think being sure is enough of a reason.

The real question is, what would you do if they did call it Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant?

I'm not worried about the new material.

The fact is that Robert Plant doesn't want to do Led Zeppelin. Just because Robert doesn't want to do it, doesn't mean someone else can't.

Robert can get what he wants and move on. The 3Js can get what they want as Led Zeppelin with a new singer.

We shouldn't just assume they haven't considered it just because people will say "that's not Led Zeppelin".

Led Zeppelin is everything it was and it might even become something new. I think it's a possibility that gets overlooked and ruled out too easily.

I still think that you are minimizing Plants contribution.We all know that Plant wasn't involved with something like ahhhhh,Moby Dick!....I hardly think creative control is an issue.

I'm not worried about the new material either,I proposed it because I'm sure there will be folks on here that will despise it.Too bad for them!

I personally don't believe that Jimmy would have the... dare I say...gall to do that.And it's probably not even gall but respect for what he originally created. Respect,Bro.Respect.

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I still think that you are minimizing Plants contribution.We all know that Plant wasn't involved with something like ahhhhh,Moby Dick!....I hardly think creative control is an issue.

I'm not worried about the new material either,I proposed it because I'm sure there will be folks on here that will despise it.Too bad for them!

I personally don't believe that Jimmy would have the... dare I say...gall to do that.And it's probably not even gall but respect for what he originally created. Respect,Bro.Respect.

If I'm minimizing his contribution then it's because of the first album. If Plant didn't fully write lyrics/melodies until the second album, then I think that proves that Led Zeppelin can exist without his writing talents.

Think about this:

We don't know how far the 3Js were into this album before they knew Plant wouldn't do it. In Jones' Manson statement, he mentioned that Jason was really good in the recording studio. Combine that with the fact that Robert says he's not interested and it means they were recording for Led Zeppelin, at least up until Robert's decision.

I'm guessing that Robert tried to make it work first before turning them down. It's one thing to say "no" in person and it's another thing to say "no" through the media. I think Plant took the higher road and tried to make it work, but it all came up short for whatever reason.

So who knows how much material was created for the intent of going under the Led Zeppelin name? Do you just throw that material away now because Robert doesn't want to do it? Sure, you could rework it for a new singer f it's not too far into production. They didn't throw away CODA after one of their mates left us, so why throw away this one after another has opted out?

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If I'm minimizing his contribution then it's because of the first album. If Plant didn't fully write lyrics/melodies until the second album, then I think that proves that Led Zeppelin can exist without his writing talents.

Think about this:

We don't know how far the 3Js were into this album before they knew Plant wouldn't do it. In Jones' Manson statement, he mentioned that Jason was really good in the recording studio. Combine that with the fact that Robert says he's not interested and it means they were recording for Led Zeppelin, at least up until Robert's decision.

I'm guessing that Robert tried to make it work first before turning them down. It's one thing to say "no" in person and it's another thing to say "no" through the media. I think Plant took the higher road and tried to make it work, but it all came up short for whatever reason.

So who knows how much material was created for the intent of going under the Led Zeppelin name? Do you just throw that material away now because Robert doesn't want to do it? Sure, you could rework it for a new singer f it's not too far into production. They didn't throw away CODA after one of their mates left us, so why throw away this one after another has opted out?

I believe in all fairness the 1st album has to be discounted as well as few songs of the second.For all members....Then again,it was each ones take on a particular song and it just worked!Very well,might I add.

I do believe that the 3 J's knew well in advance of Roberts denial.Do you think that Jimmy wrote lyrics just for Robert? I hardly think so...Maybe a few riffs to bounce Roberts way.He wouldn't throw those away anyway.We know how frugal Jimmy is. :) Jimmy can adapt to what's in front of him,he always has and it's something I'm sure that can be attributed to his session playing.

Most of Coda was "done" well before Johns death,with all of the members of Led Zeppelin.That statement was irrelevent to any discussion here.

I remember the day John died and I remember right where I was.I was in The Marine Corps out on an excersize at Ft Bragg.My first thought was that there will never be a Led Zeppelin tour ever again because there is no Bonham,you can't replace him.I feel the same with Robert.I was really amazed they used the name for the O2 but I also understood it.Respect my man,pure respect!

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If I'm minimizing his contribution then it's because of the first album. If Plant didn't fully write lyrics/melodies until the second album, then I think that proves that Led Zeppelin can exist without his writing talents.

Does anyone know for sure what lyrics and melodies Plant was responsible for on the first album? Many sources in various books about the band aren't very clear on this topic. Apparently, Plant was still under contract to CBS (I think), therefore he could not be credited.

Here are a couple of statements from Keith Shadwick's book on Zep re: Plant's contributions to songs on the first LP.

In the studio, "Page recalled Plant singing the vocals live...which helped him because he'd make up lyrics as he went along."

GTBT, re: "Page's confidence in his new singer to carry a tune (melody) - Plant is left all by himself high up in the songs melody during the verse, with no rhythm guitar cushion to support him.

D&C, "he never phrases the verse within the normal bar structure. He always lags behind the beat. This creates an off balance effect that emphasises the disorientation that is the song's central message."

Not trying to argue, I'm thinking that his contributions to the first album were significant.

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Does anyone know for sure what lyrics and melodies Plant was responsible for on the first album? Many sources in various books about the band aren't very clear on this topic. Apparently, Plant was still under contract to CBS (I think), therefore he could not be credited.

Here are a couple of statements from Keith Shadwick's book on Zep re: Plant's contributions to songs on the first LP.

In the studio, "Page recalled Plant singing the vocals live...which helped him because he'd make up lyrics as he went along."

GTBT, re: "Page's confidence in his new singer to carry a tune (melody) - Plant is left all by himself high up in the songs melody during the verse, with no rhythm guitar cushion to support him.

D&C, "he never phrases the verse within the normal bar structure. He always lags behind the beat. This creates an off balance effect that emphasises the disorientation that is the song's central message."

Not trying to argue, I'm thinking that his contributions to the first album were significant.

Robert's contributions on the first album are minimal, though he has claimed he suggested "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You." Jimmy vehemently denies this, and says Robert was full of it. The second album, which they were sued over because Robert stuck too closely to Willie Dixon's "Whole Lotta Love Lyric", is mostly Jimmy's as well. Or, you could say it's Jimmy feeding off of Bonzo. Early on, they were seriously considering going with another singer. Robert's said as much himself -- he thought he would only be in the band for a couple of years, then out.

One of the reasons they went to the cottage in Wales for the 3rd album was to cement Robert, as in "you are the lead singer" let's forge this thing and remove your doubts. It didn't take long for Robert to blossom once that happened.

Barack Obama is President of the United States of American!!! Holy Shit!!!!!!

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Robert's contributions on the first album are minimal, though he has claimed he suggested "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You." Jimmy vehemently denies this, and says Robert was full of it.

Oh PLEASE show me where this was said.

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Please do, Mercurious - you are saying a LOT of things that can't be substantiated, in general.

Most of what you say here about Robert and LZ is in fact totally wrong. And THAT statement CAN be supported.

I think you guys should focus on things Jimmy Page says and not what Robert says. Jimmy has said in a few interviews that the lawsuits were because Robert wouldn't change the lyrics. In one interview Robert claimed HE suggested "Babe" - Page vehemently scoffed at that in a later interview. What else I'm I responding to? Not even sure at this point.

Oh, Hammer of the Gods and a few other places, there was consideration of dropping Plant. I read a quote where Robert said he thought he wasn't going to be in it that long. "Thank You" is his first full lyric, and that's pretty well established. Jimmy took him to Bron-yr-aur to connect with him. I thought this stuff was pretty well known. Apparently not.

Other matters:

I think Jimmy's going to use the name, and if I was giving him media advice I would tell him to do so in a way that respects Robert without disenfranchising him. If that means they have to pay him on some level, fine. But I think Jimmy will go ahead and use the name, and there will be millions going to charity in the process (the tour).

Sorry, this isn't about Robert anymore. Let's get past that.

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