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guitarmy

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I think you guys should focus on things Jimmy Page says and not what Robert says. Jimmy has said in a few interviews that the lawsuits were because Robert wouldn't change the lyrics. In one interview Robert claimed HE suggested "Babe" - Page vehemently scoffed at that in a later interview.What else I'm I responding to? Not even sure at this point.

Please reference these interviews or the exact quotes.

Otto is right - you keep presenting totally unsubstantiated information as fact.

Jimmy took him to Bron-yr-aur to connect with him. I thought this stuff was pretty well known. Apparently not.

And ROBERT took JIMMY to Bron-yr-Aur. EXTREMELY well known FACT.

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Please reference these interviews or the exact quotes.

Otto is right - you keep presenting totally unsubstantiated information as fact.

And ROBERT took JIMMY to Bron-yr-Aur. EXTREMELY well known FACT.

BS, Knebby -- you substantiate it. Jimmy's said NUMEROUS times that the suits were over Robert not changing the lyrics. Why should I do the work because you don't know that? Ridiculous. Because you say so, I should write journalistically on this forum? I don't think so, not unless you're paying me. Dig it up yourself, dear.

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http://www.modernguitars.com/archives/003340.html

Very long audio interview w/ Jimmy from 1977. Don't know whether there is Robert info in there relevant to you, but it's a hell of a conversation. And here's the William S. Burroughs piece (Burroughs knew which member of the band he needed to talk to):

http://www.geocities.com/thoea2004/thejimmyandbillshow.html

Let's begin to shift the focus away from Robert. Isn't that what he wants, anyway?

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BS, Knebby -- you substantiate it. Jimmy's said NUMEROUS times that the suits were over Robert not changing the lyrics. Why should I do the work because you don't know that? Ridiculous. Because you say so, I should write journalistically on this forum? I don't think so, not unless you're paying me. Dig it up yourself, dear.

It's absolutely the case that Robert took Jimmy to Bron-yr-aur--he says in any number of places that it was a spot his family went to when he was a child. You probably have it confused with Pangbourne.

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It's absolutely the case that Robert took Jimmy to Bron-yr-aur--he says in any number of places that it was a spot his family went to when he was a child. You probably have it confused with Pangbourne.

no, I don't have it confused. Plant hadn't written much to that point and it was a 'Coming together" Page and Plant were there by themselves and their wives for a while until the others showed up. Not to say that going away somewhere wasn't Pagey's idea. As far as the lyrics, which Robert had written seldom of until that point, here's Page:

In an interview he gave to Guitar World magazine in 1993, Page commented on the band's use of classic blues songs:

“[A]s far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing.[109] ”

In another interview, Page responded to the suggestion that Led Zeppelin used a lot of traditional and blues lyrics and tunes and called them their own:

"The thing is they were traditional lyrics and they went back far before a lot of people that one related them to. The riffs we did were totally different, also, from the ones that had come before, apart from something like "You Shook Me" and "I Can't Quit You," which were attributed to Willie Dixon. The thing with "Bring It On Home," Christ, there's only a tiny bit taken from Sonny Boy Williamson's version and we threw that in as a tribute to him. People say, 'Oh, 'Bring It On Home' is stolen.' Well, there's only a little bit in the song that relates to anything that had gone before it, just the end.[23]"

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:slapface:

So I just typed up a million reasons why Led Zeppelin can move on without Robert Plant.

Unfortunately, I lost them due to some copy/paste hijinks.

The crux of my arguments was this:

-Page and Jones always did the composing/producing, so that's covered already.

-Plant pretty much just added words and had a pretty voice, working with what Page/Jones started.

-Plant has matured and is now more musically inclined, so it's natural he wouldn't accept a lesser role today.

I really do love Robert, but I think he is the easiest to replace given the natural creation of a Led Zeppelin song.

...

I'll have to regurgitate my anecdotes to these comments as you guys flame me for them!

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who would you suggest as a replacement? cant think of anyone who comes close to plants stage aura/power/and yes mystic persona,have seen zep at knebworth in 79 plant/page in 95 and plant many times solo.I will go and see zep if they tour without plant but is it zep? some of plants solo work since zep split up has been awesome,check out mighty re-arranger,he has a hot band how much does a 60 year old man need to tour the world? the reception in america alone would be insane!

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who would you suggest as a replacement? cant think of anyone who comes close to plants stage aura/power/and yes mystic persona,have seen zep at knebworth in 79 plant/page in 95 and plant many times solo.I will go and see zep if they tour without plant but is it zep? some of plants solo work since zep split up has been awesome,check out mighty re-arranger,he has a hot band how much does a 60 year old man need to tour the world? the reception in america alone would be insane!

As John Paul Jones said, they aren't looking for a "replacement" for Robert in the sense of someone who sounds like him. Not to mention it's the media, not the guys who keep touting the idea it's Zep going out and touring.

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Please reference these interviews or the exact quotes.

Otto is right - you keep presenting totally unsubstantiated information as fact.

And ROBERT took JIMMY to Bron-yr-Aur. EXTREMELY well known FACT.

I hope you have hit those links I provided. Now, you must understand, there are those of us on this site and participating in this forum who love Jimmy Page beyond reason. Many of us are also guitar players. Not only do we have online links to interviews with Jimmy, we bought those things when they were published, and we know this stuff like our own breathing.

Read the interviews, please and I think you'll come away with a better idea of how Jimmy views Led Zeppelin. I. e. , yes, this is Jimmy's band. It's not Robert's. I don't know what that means as far as moving forward into the future, but I have a very strong feeling that it will very likely mean something.

B)

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I hope you have hit those links I provided. Now, you must understand, there are those of us on this site and participating in this forum who love Jimmy Page beyond reason. Many of us are also guitar players. Not only do we have online links to interviews with Jimmy, we bought those things when they were published, and we know this stuff like our own breathing.

Read the interviews, please and I think you'll come away with a better idea of how Jimmy views Led Zeppelin. I. e. , yes, this is Jimmy's band. It's not Robert's. I don't know what that means as far as moving forward into the future, but I have a very strong feeling that it will very likely mean something.

B)

You really are totally up yourself. I have read and heard every interview released to the public by this band. Please don't assume you are teaching me anything.

Robert took Jimmy to Bron-yr-Aur. FACT.

Please provide the proof to back up your other claims - or don't make them.

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You really are totally up yourself. I have read and heard every interview released to the public by this band. Please don't assume you are teaching me anything.

Robert took Jimmy to Bron-yr-Aur. FACT.

Please provide the proof to back up your other claims - or don't make them.

Already did, don't ignore them. What's your purpose here? To show that Jimmy can't do anything without Robert? I don't get it.

Please explain. What is it you think or want should happen?

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Here, Knebby, learn about "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" .... according to Jimmy, not Robert:

http://www.iem.ac.ru/zeppelin/docs/interviews/page_93.gw

Here's the quote

"GW: How did "Babe" evolve?

Page: This is a good time to clear something up that I've really taken offense

to. There's a book written by our former road manager, Richard Cole

[stairway to Heaven, HarperCollins Publishers] that has made me

completely ill. I'm so mad about it that I can't even bring myself to

read the whole thing. The two bits that I have read are so ridiculously

false, that Im sure if I read the rest I'd be able to sue Cole and the

publishers. But it would be so painful to read that it wouldn't be worth

it.

The one false story has to do with "Babe Im Gonna Leave You". The book

claims that when Robert came to my house to initially discuss the band,

I played him a recording of Joan Baez singing "Babe" and asked him, "Can

you imagine us playing something like this?" The book claims that Robert

picked up my guitar and started playing *ME* the arrangement that

eventually appeared on the album. Arrrghh! Can you believe that?

First of all, I had worked out the arrangement long before Robert came to

my house and secondly, Robert didn't even play the flippin' guitar in

those days!! Thirdly, I didn't ask him if he could imagine playing that

song, I TOLD him that I wanted to do it. And you can take that right to

the horse's mouth.

That's just in the two pages that I read. You can imagine how inaccurate

the rest of the book must be. That's a definite punch on the nose. I'd

love to know who his source of information was."

Your problem, Mercurious, is you seem to put your own interpretation on things and then present this as fact. Jimmy CLEARLY discusses how THE BOOK - by Richard Cole - got the facts re this song wrong. NOT Robert. He does not say Robert is "full of it" or any of the other things you claim. You can't go around making those kind of statements and not expect people to challenge you.

Thanks for producing the quotes about the law suits. That is exactly what I meant.

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Already did, don't ignore them. What's your purpose here? To show that Jimmy can't do anything without Robert? I don't get it.

Please explain. What is it you think or want should happen?

My purpose in this discussion with you - and our previous one - is to try to stop you from presenting fiction as fact on ths forum. It seems to be a hopeless case.

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It is hopeless. Fiction is more fun than fact -- and the best writers are liars, Faulkner said and wrote and blithered. This is not a newspaper that you are the editor of -- although I do not doubt for one second that you would be a great editor of said newspaper -- it's a fan forum. Richard Cole was not around during those early sessions, so, as i've read elsewhere, Robert is the source of Jimmy's annoyance over "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You." [btw - have you heard the Joan Baez version? It's so beautiful.]

My facts, as I present them, are no more important than anyone else's on this forum. My abiltiy to be wrong about any of it is also about the same as anyone else's. I think I'm right much more often than not. I appreciate that you're making me work for it. :slapface:

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It is hopeless. Fiction is more fun than fact -- and the best writers are liars, Faulkner said and wrote and blithered. This is not a newspaper that you are the editor of -- although I do not doubt for one second that you would be a great editor of said newspaper -- it's a fan forum. Richard Cole was not around during those early sessions, so, as i've read elsewhere, Robert is the source of Jimmy's annoyance over "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You." [btw - have you heard the Joan Baez version? It's so beautiful.]

My facts, as I present them, are no more important than anyone else's on this forum. My abiltiy to be wrong about any of it is also about the same as anyone else's. I think I'm right much more often than not. I appreciate that you're making me work for it. :slapface:

I have previously argued with you over your tendency to dress up as fact what isn't right HERE

What makes it irritating is that it forces others to keep correcting you, and thus makes for an extremely boring discussion.

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I have previously argued with you over your tendency to dress up as fact what isn't right HERE

What makes it irritating is that it forces others to keep correcting you, and thus makes for an extremely boring discussion.

You're right Otto. Said all I can say in this one.

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Robert's contributions on the first album are minimal, though he has claimed he suggested "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You." Jimmy vehemently denies this, and says Robert was full of it. The second album, which they were sued over because Robert stuck too closely to Willie Dixon's "Whole Lotta Love Lyric", is mostly Jimmy's as well. Or, you could say it's Jimmy feeding off of Bonzo. Early on, they were seriously considering going with another singer. Robert's said as much himself -- he thought he would only be in the band for a couple of years, then out.

One of the reasons they went to the cottage in Wales for the 3rd album was to cement Robert, as in "you are the lead singer" let's forge this thing and remove your doubts. It didn't take long for Robert to blossom once that happened.

Barack Obama is President of the United States of American!!! Holy Shit!!!!!!

We should "focus on what Jimmy says", you think - well, all right.

"After working solidly since forming Zeppelin, Robert suggested the trek to Bron-Y-Aur cottage, a place he had been to when he was much younger. I'd never been to Wales before, we just took guitars and had a good time, a couple of road managers came too. It ended up as a working holiday writing numbers. We went back a second time because it was a good place to work....." (Howard Mylett, Jimmy Page: Tangents Within a Framework, p. 24).

That they were seriously considering another singer after the first year is also something Jimmy has explicitly denied, but I will have to dig up the exact quote later. B)

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It is hopeless. Fiction is more fun than fact -- and the best writers are liars, Faulkner said and wrote and blithered. This is not a newspaper that you are the editor of -- although I do not doubt for one second that you would be a great editor of said newspaper -- it's a fan forum. Richard Cole was not around during those early sessions, so, as i've read elsewhere, Robert is the source of Jimmy's annoyance over "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You." [btw - have you heard the Joan Baez version? It's so beautiful.]

As far as I'm aware, a fan forum isn't a place to spread fabricated stories about members of the band, unless you go in for that dubious genre called fan fic. Fiction might be more fun than fact to you, but somebody who believes a totally falsified version of events presented as fact, and then discovers the truth, is not going to consider they've just had fun, but that they've been told lies. The reason we discuss these things on a fan forum is that we want to get accurate information about the band, among other things. Similarly, the objects of the information--the members of the band--are not going to thank you for being totally misrepresented in multiple ways. (I'm not accusing you of deliberately making stuff up, btw--just emphasizing the importantance of the lines between fact/fiction, accuracy/inaccuracy, right/wrong.)

The Joan Baez version is beautiful. I hear that was one of the songs Jimmy played Robert on his first visit to Pangbourne, and that their mutual admiration of it (among other songs) was a sign they were going to connect musically. I could be totally wrong about that though, wouldn't want you to go believing it just on my word! ;)

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If I'm minimizing his contribution then it's because of the first album. If Plant didn't fully write lyrics/melodies until the second album, then I think that proves that Led Zeppelin can exist without his writing talents.

Mercurious, you wrote - "Sorry, this isn't about Robert anymore. Let's get past that." (to Knebby)

My post about Shadwick's comments about the first album was a direct response to Guitarmy's post, which I quoted in the post.

This has nothing to do with, "trying to make it about Robert." I was trying to push the discussion further into exploring what has been written that highlights Robert's contributions to the songs on the first album.

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who would you suggest as a replacement? cant think of anyone who comes close to plants stage aura/power/and yes mystic persona,have seen zep at knebworth in 79 plant/page in 95 and plant many times solo.I will go and see zep if they tour without plant but is it zep? some of plants solo work since zep split up has been awesome,check out mighty re-arranger,he has a hot band how much does a 60 year old man need to tour the world? the reception in america alone would be insane!

Replacement is a bad word I originally used, so that's my fault (Sorry).

I think what the 3Js need is a someone who can replace Robert's role in the band, not Robert himself.

Not the role of pure Robert himself, but the role that was occupied by Robert.

I'm just fishing for the best way to put it. I don't think for a second that Robert is replaceable in the sense of his ethos.

No one can bring what Robert brings to the table, but someone might be able to bring another table.

Eh?

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It is hopeless. Fiction is more fun than fact -- and the best writers are liars, Faulkner said and wrote and blithered. This is not a newspaper that you are the editor of -- although I do not doubt for one second that you would be a great editor of said newspaper -- it's a fan forum. Richard Cole was not around during those early sessions, so, as i've read elsewhere, Robert is the source of Jimmy's annoyance over "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You." [btw - have you heard the Joan Baez version? It's so beautiful.]

My facts, as I present them, are no more important than anyone else's on this forum. My abiltiy to be wrong about any of it is also about the same as anyone else's. I think I'm right much more often than not. I appreciate that you're making me work for it. :slapface:

OK, now I'm really confused. Knebby has just quoted a portion of the interview that you stated shows proof that Robert is the source of Jimmy's frustration over BIGLY. It clearly documents that Jimmy's source of frustration over BIGLY is Cole and his book, Stairway to Heaven.

I don't get it.

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