Rationalizing

[Electrophile]

Really, what makes Robert so good? (not a sarcastic question tyvm)

For me, it's his ability to take the lyrics and craft them in a way that no one else can. I cannot imagine anyone else singing those lyrics the way he did. They might be sung differently, as we'll find out when/if this tour and album get underway, but they won't be sung the same. It's iconic.

I think for some people the lyrics are secondary to the music with Led Zeppelin, but I don't think they'd have enjoyed the success that they did with some other lead singer.

[Rock Action]

For me, it's his ability to take the lyrics and craft them in a way that no one else can. I cannot imagine anyone else singing those lyrics the way he did. They might be sung differently, as we'll find out when/if this tour and album get underway, but they won't be sung the same. It's iconic.

I think for some people the lyrics are secondary to the music with Led Zeppelin, but I don't think they'd have enjoyed the success that they did with some other lead singer.

Beautifully put. Robert cannot actually be "replaced". His stamp on the music of Led Zeppelin is as important as any other member in the band.

With that said, I'd still love to hear what the three J's can do. Bearing in mind that this will also include NEW music that has nothing to do with Robert.

[Rorer714]

The WLL medleys are classic.But I'm sure they were all Jimmys' notions.Right down to Roberts "BBBBBBBmmmBoogie,so he did and he kept on boogying all night long,lawd have mercy"

Sorry I love those medleys..."I said hello Marylou.."

[Mercurious]

Thanks Aqua!

Which is why it isn't worth much, and isn't a "confirmation" AT ALL. Get it? People are still speculating as before - while you of course carry on posting your bullshit "facts".

Yeesh, you guys should work for the Bush administration.

[Rock Action]

Yeesh, you guys should work for the Bush administration.

Damn, what a kick in the ol' nutsack that is!

[SteveAJones]

So where did Jimmy more or less say "If we don't play with Robert, or have all four us, then we won't call it Led Zeppelin"

I'm not saying he didn't say that. I'd just like to see it so I can put this to rest.

If you have any context of the quote, then that'll be valuable too.

Well, he didn't say the four of them as there are only three surviving members. Anyway,

I cannot give you more than what I have already. I suppose if anything of consequence

develops from the jams - a band for example - he'll publicly address this topic himself.

[BlackandGold]

Really, what makes Robert so good? (not a sarcastic question tyvm)

Well aside from the obvious (and I mean his voice!)...

In an interview with Allison Krauss she said (paraphrasing here) "that she finds it very challenging to sing with him. That he is constantly doing something different vocally, and she'll be looking at him on stage like WTF - where you going with that?" She has to try to get to the same place. And some times it works and sometimes it doesn't. " Aside from vocals, she also said that he is constantly seeking new direction. That he could find inspiration somewhere and go off on a completely different course.

I'll try to find the real quote, Allison didn't really say WTF.

There is also the concept of synergy. It's pretty obvious that just about everyone on this board thinks that Robert's best work was with Zep. Well it seems just as blatantly obvious that JP and JPJ's best work was also with Zep. They were far less creative and productive post-Zep than Robert was. I said somewhere on yet another similar thread that songwriting is key. And neither JP or JPJ has written a memorable song post-Zep. Someone said Robert just wrote the lyrics and added a pretty voice. Unless you were in the room with them as they were working, you have no idea what his contribution was. Knebby said he also came up with the melodies. You don't need to play an instrument to create melodies. And although the riffs are memorable, you sing along with the melody.

So not only does Robert challenge himself, maybe Jimmy needs him to raise the bar - on stage as a foil for each other, and as a songwriting partner to create something new and memorable.

[Aquamarine]

The riffs are greater than the lyrics.

Talk about an apples and oranges comparison.

[Otto Masson]

Damn, what a kick in the ol' nutsack that is!

Not really, RA....

[guitarmy]

Well aside from the obvious (and I mean his voice!)...

In an interview with Allison Krauss she said (paraphrasing here) "that she finds it very challenging to sing with him. That he is constantly doing something different vocally, and she'll be looking at him on stage like WTF - where you going with that?" She has to try to get to the same place. And some times it works and sometimes it doesn't. " Aside from vocals, she also said that he is constantly seeking new direction. That he could find inspiration somewhere and go off on a completely different course.

I can see the value in changing things up, which keeps things fresh and unrehearsed. It's a risk worth taking because if you're good, you can do it and make it work.

Yeah I like that about Robert.

On the other side of the coin, I think it can disappoint some fans who were expecting something else.

To remedy this, whenever I'm listening to Robert Plant live, I just wait to see what he's gonna do, instead of going in with certain expectations.

There is also the concept of synergy. It's pretty obvious that just about everyone on this board thinks that Robert's best work was with Zep. Well it seems just as blatantly obvious that JP and JPJ's best work was also with Zep.

Seriously, they were all better together. Does anyone think for a second that either of their solo careers even compares? Well, anyone other than Robert Plant?

They were far less creative and productive post-Zep than Robert was. I said somewhere on yet another similar thread that songwriting is key. And neither JP or JPJ has written a memorable song post-Zep.

eh I dunno, memorable is one of those terms where it just depends on the person. Productivity in terms of volume doesn't necessarily mean quality though.

Plant has more post-Zep stuff sure. Whether you value it more than Page's or Jones' probably depends on what you like best about Led Zeppelin.

Someone said Robert just wrote the lyrics and added a pretty voice. Unless you were in the room with them as they were working, you have no idea what his contribution was.

Yeah I more or less said that. But it was in the context of the development of a Led Zeppelin song. Sure, we weren't in the room with them, but I was basing my opinion on the studio outtakes. How do you explain Robert not knowing the words to tracks that are close to their final form?

I think it's because Pages, Jones, and Bonham developed the compositions first. I also think this changed gradually as Led Zeppelin grew.

So not only does Robert challenge himself, maybe Jimmy needs him to raise the bar - on stage as a foil for each other, and as a songwriting partner to create something new and memorable.

Yeah if only they were going to be on stage to have that chance.

[Aquamarine]

Yeah I more or less said that. But it was in the context of the development of a Led Zeppelin song. Sure, we weren't in the room with them, but I was basing my opinion on the studio outtakes. How do you explain Robert not knowing the words to tracks that are close to their final form?

I think it's because Pages, Jones, and Bonham developed the compositions first. I also think this changed gradually as Led Zeppelin grew.

Could be for the same reason that he often still doesn't remember the words to songs he's been singing for nearly forty years, that he wrote himself! Writing's one thing, remembering's a different talent.

Btw, I know I keep saying this, but composition includes lyrics.

[guitarmy]

Could be for the same reason that he often still doesn't remember the words to songs he's been singing for nearly forty years, that he wrote himself! Writing's one thing, remembering's a different talent.

I knew you'd bite on that one!

Yeah that's a good explanation. Hard to know either way really.

Btw, I know I keep saying this, but composition includes lyrics.

I tend to separate music-lyrics from music-instrument because music-lyrics are more closely tied to the human act of language, which is more common for a human being to do than the human act of playing an instrument.

Within language though, writing is a subset of that. Professional writing is a subset of writing, so I can see how writing lyrics is a specialization in itself.

We learn to express our thoughts and feelings through verbal sound from birth! We begin learning language before we complete our first year.

Learning an instrument starts much later, and the age you do this greatly varies. But not all humans will learn an instrument, whereas all humans in some capacity will learn language.

So I place more value on the instrumental part because I think it's harder and less common.

Harder because it's more natural for a human being to speak than it is for a human being to play an instrument.

Maybe composition isn't the word I was looking for, as I find that out with many words!

So yeah, I tend to place more emphasis on the things you hear that you can't repeat with your mouth.

[Aquamarine]

I think writing lyrics is actually a lot more difficult to do well than first appears. We (or nearly all) all learn language, true, but we don't all learn to use it in the same ways or to the same standards. Like, for instance, I can speak and write English, but I can't write poetry like Yeats, or any other major poet, for that matter. It's the same with lyric-writing--not everyone can do it, let alone well, so I think it's important not to underestimate it as part of the composing process (especially in this case, since Knebby said Plant was also writing the melodies that accompanied them).

[Otto Masson]

Just speaking for myself here, but as a rule I listen mainly for the music. One of the reasons is that I started listening to rock at the age of 10, and being an Icelandic kid, of course I couldn't really understand the lyrics until a few years later. This simply means that I already appreciated the music a great deal while not really knowing what the lyrics were about. Of course, this in itself is perfectly valid, but in a subjective way: because it doesn't mean everybody else should see things as I do - that would be absurd.

But I think there is more to this. If I placed a lot of emphasis on lyrics in Rock music (generally speaking, not just Led Zeppelin), I would probably stop listening to most of it, and just reach for my books of poetry - even Robert's very best lyrics (TSRTS, say) become laughable when compared with Baudelaire or Rimbaud. Now people will protest and say that the comparison isn't fair.....and I agree. It isn't fair. But WHY is that? Because lyrics in Rock & Roll usually don't have much independent value, aside from context, but are subservient to the music and the general feeling that the song is meant to carry.

This is something Robert did very well - really unusually well. To be quite honest, and at the risk of sounding arrogant, I really think the lyrics of most rock bands are embarrassingly stupid; while some of them can be fun a few times, say, when you're drunk and just having a good time, in the end it's all just extremely shallow. Jimi Hendrix had an unusual gift with words; strewn across his songs you find amazingly poetic expressions that just fit his musical vision like a glove. Robert was only 21 when he took over the writing of lyrics for Led Zeppelin. Extremely young. But he did a really good job, and got better at it over the years, too.

As for Robert writing the melodies, I have usually put it slightly differently: He had input on the melodies. This was important, however. Robert likes to improvise, and to not repeat things too much - same as Jimmy, which is one reason why they stylistically fit each other so well. But Jimmy really wrote music with his band mates in mind, and some of the songs are crafted in a way that makes me think he already had at least an outline of a melody in mind when he contacted Robert. Jimmy however has also said that a few times Robert did make him turn his head!

Yes, it really was Jimmy's band. But one of the most admirable things about his musical vision was that it left his band mates so much space to express themselves. And what a band it was.

[guitarmy]

I think writing lyrics is actually a lot more difficult to do well than first appears. We (or nearly all) all learn language, true, but we don't all learn to use it in the same ways or to the same standards. Like, for instance, I can speak and write English, but I can't write poetry like Yeats, or any other major poet, for that matter. It's the same with lyric-writing--not everyone can do it, let alone well, so I think it's important not to underestimate it as part of the composing process (especially in this case, since Knebby said Plant was also writing the melodies that accompanied them).

You're right, we can't all do those things just because we can speak language. But if we wanted to, we already have the tools (words/grammar/literary devices) in our brain. At least we have most of them. There's a lot to learn about writing, sure, but if we want to learn an instrument, we have to start from scratch.

I don't think I underestimate it, I just assess instrumental writing as something extra.

As for the melodies, we don't know for sure which ones Plant wrote, but I'll agree that it had to be a fair number.

[Aquamarine]

I should add, and in light of Otto's post especially, that I'm not saying I think all rock lyrics are great, let alone all Plant's. What I was trying to convey was that it's incredibly difficult to do well--when it's more than a case of tossing in some words to fit the melody, and even that's not as easy as it looks.

(And then, of course, there are a lot of writers for whom the words are the most important part, such as Dylan, for whom the music is usually subservient to the lyrics. Not the case with Zeppelin, I'll grant, but there are still a lot of artists for whom lyrics are paramount.)

[Otto Masson]

Aqua, you are no doubt right to point out that there may be exceptions. But I will stubbornly insist that in Rock there probably aren't many. I think in Dylan's case the way he writes songs really comes from his folk background....the way he would use them to tell a story, for instance, is better comprehended within that musical context. And of course the music is great too. Joni Mitchell, a similar thing.

[Otto Masson]

I should add, and in light of Otto's post especially, that I'm not saying I think all rock lyrics are great, let alone all Plant's. What I was trying to convey was that it's incredibly difficult to do well--when it's more than a case of tossing in some words to fit the melody, and even that's not as easy as it looks.

(And then, of course, there are a lot of writers for whom the words are the most important part, such as Dylan, for whom the music is usually subservient to the lyrics. Not the case with Zeppelin, I'll grant, but there are still a lot of artists for whom lyrics are paramount.)

Oh, and I should add that I basically agree with the first paragraph here.

[SunChild]

I don't think I'm minimizing Plant, but I do think I'm maximizing Page and Jones. Plant was not all of Led Zeppelin, and I'm sure there were many instances where his input was minimal. I also think this is a reason why he doesn't want to do it. Less creative control that he's grown used to.

While you are so sure that they wouldn't call it Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant, I don't think being sure is enough of a reason.

The real question is, what would you do if they did call it Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant?

I'm not worried about the new material.

The fact is that Robert Plant doesn't want to do Led Zeppelin. Just because Robert doesn't want to do it, doesn't mean someone else can't.

Robert can get what he wants and move on. The 3Js can get what they want as Led Zeppelin with a new singer.

We shouldn't just assume they haven't considered it just because people will say "that's not Led Zeppelin".

Led Zeppelin is everything it was and it might even become something new. I think it's a possibility that gets overlooked and ruled out too easily.

I agree, it can become something new, and it gets ruled out too easily. Whatever his influence back in the day, Plant's been away from that for a long time, and it's his choice to leave now. Does he just want to be left alone, or does he want to control the whole shebang from the breach?

Thanks for highlighting the contributions of the band as a whole. It's easy to think that all song writing teams boil down to this guy on music, the other on lyrics, but I've never thought of Zeppelin as a being like that. There are plenty of Zep lyrics that smack of Jimmy Page to me, for example. The band was generous with credits for all members.

As for melody writing, the complaint most critics have of Zeppelin is how un-melodic they are. I don't necessarily agree, but to me Jones is the most melodic of them. Love to hear his playing, and his arranging was a huge part of their musical success. I always think of Page as being more bohemian than melodic as a musician.

Plant's talent for melody is clear from his own albums, for sure.

Agree that WIC suffers most from Jones's lack and the lack of Jimmy producing. Me, too, on it sounding like it's Plant's baby, just from comparing it to other Plant solo work. YMMV on the outcome, but it ain't Zeppelin.

Plant was a young man with great talent but little discipline or originality before he and Bonzo hooked up with Page and Jones and busted their asses for several straight years. I think that's part of what makes people impatient with him... somehow, now the others need him more than he needs them, musically? Yeah, well, go teach your granma to suck eggs, as they say... There is more than enough talent, experience and brilliance to go around with that gang. Will is something else, but I wouldn't bet against Page's will, either.

If they rename it, that's ok. If they don't that's ok, too. We all know who they are, and there's no way to escape the legacy, anyway. Why should they want to?

[ninelives]

I agree, it can become something new, and it gets ruled out too easily. Whatever his influence back in the day, Plant's been away from that for a long time, and it's his choice to leave now. Does he just want to be left alone, or does he want to control the whole shebang from the breach?

I think Robert's influences back then - blues, early r&b, folk etc. are very much with him today. They're at the root of what he writes but they get filtered through other genres that he's into at the moment. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. I don't get what you mean about him being left alone or controlling things. He's not controlling any situation except he's made a decision about not joining the guys on this project.

[Aquamarine]

Aqua, you are no doubt right to point out that there may be exceptions. But I will stubbornly insist that in Rock there probably aren't many. I think in Dylan's case the way he writes songs really comes from his folk background....the way he would use them to tell a story, for instance, is better comprehended within that musical context. And of course the music is great too. Joni Mitchell, a similar thing.

I think the difference here is that I was basically thinking of "rock" as being a rather bigger umbrella--covering people like Paul Simon, say. And a lot of rockers came from blues backgrounds, which actually has very strong metaphorical lyrical content, though a lot of it has been revisited so many times (including by Zep) that we tend to overlook its power. (Plus, folks like Springsteen have written some great lyrics, too.) But I'll certainly agree that in the narrower sense of rock, lyrics are more often subservient to melody.

[SunChild]

Yeesh, you guys should work for the Bush administration.

Hang in there Mercurious, it's a hard row you've chosen to hoe here.

I for one get a couple of things the more literal minded are perhaps missing - one, that Plant may have chosen Bron-Yr-Aur as the LOCATION for the Page and Plant retreat to the country to create, but at the time Page was the by far the more accomplished professional musician. It is significant that he would hunker down in a bucolic retreat with Plant, and no one has said whose suggestion the retreat was to start with. Water under the bridge, of course, but we've mythologized the place Bron-Yr-Aur, which is indeed magical, but in the context of your discussion, the coordinates on the map aren't the point. Jimmy Page didn't suddenly become an outstanding guitarist because Plant introduced the lovely Welsh countryside to him.

Two - yes, Cole got it wrong. Since only two people were at the boat house listening to Joan Baez's version of BIGLY, and Page says he'd already written what would become the Zep arrangement of it, where did Cole get his story? Possibly he pulled it from his ass, possibly not. Again the point is, Robert Plant sang Jimmy Page's arrangement of someone else's song, he didn't create the thing, or turn Page on to it.

And yeah, I'm just a fan with an opinion, like you; a Faulkner, not a Woodward.

[Aquamarine]

I think passing off opinions as facts was the problem, not the opinions themselves.

[SunChild]

I think Robert's influences back then - blues, early r&b, folk etc. are very much with him today. They're at the root of what he writes but they get filtered through other genres that he's into at the moment. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. I don't get what you mean about him being left alone or controlling things. He's not controlling any situation except he's made a decision about not joining the guys on this project.

Edited to say, I meant, Plant's influence within Zeppelin, not his external influences as a musician.

I'm saying, the band Led Zeppelin can exist without Robert Plant. Will it be different? Uh, yeah. But it would anyway, without Bonzo, and because they're all older, and because Plant's voice is different, too.

It may be moot, because it is likely that even if Jimmy does move on with John Paul and Jason and they play the music, it's unlikely they will call it "Led Zeppelin." I'm just one of those who won't get all offended if they do, since that's who they are, actually.

Robert made a choice, and if that choice is to no longer be in the band, rather than to put paid to Led Zeppelin altogether, that means the band can still exist. It's kinda up to how the fans respond to it, really.

Time will tell.

[SunChild]

I think passing off opinions as facts was the problem, not the opinions themselves.

The facts were narrowly focused on, and the opinions dismissed, it appeared to me.