Bonham Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I have my friend here with me who is a guitarist of 8 years. He's not what you'd call a Zeppelin fan - I was playing Black Dog and he pointed out the riff that is played at 40 seconds in and ends at roughly 48 seconds. He says, "The riff doesn't fit rythmically in to the song. It's about one note too long to fit properly." I need your suggestions on this guys, because as a fan I've tried being unbiased about this and I've tried seeing it from his point of view, and I can kind of understand but unlike him, I don't think it sounds bad. So be as unbiased as you can and give me your opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxie Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 There was a quote by Nancy Wilson from Heart who said something along the lines that to play it right, you have to learn it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I have my friend here with me who is a guitarist of 8 years. He's not what you'd call a Zeppelin fan - I was playing Black Dog and he pointed out the riff that is played at 40 seconds in and ends at roughly 48 seconds. He says, "The riff doesn't fit rythmically in to the song. It's about one note too long to fit properly." I need your suggestions on this guys, because as a fan I've tried being unbiased about this and I've tried seeing it from his point of view, and I can kind of understand but unlike him, I don't think it sounds bad. So be as unbiased as you can and give me your opinions. Does the riff have to fit to the song? Maybe the song should fit to the riff. Or maybe it doesn't matter either way and it is fine the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonham Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 Does the riff have to fit to the song? Maybe the song should fit to the riff. Or maybe it doesn't matter either way and it is fine the way it is. He says, "So you're suggesting the entire song needs to be re-written just to fit one riff?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I have got a horsey Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I have to confess, I've always disliked Black Dog, and I say this as a big JPJ fan, sorry Jonesy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 He says, "So you're suggesting the entire song needs to be re-written just to fit one riff?". Perhaps a slight adjustment in the riff, or maybe it doesn't matter and it is fine the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroselambra~ Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 the first time i heard it i thought it was musically wrong, but it really doesn't matter as it sounds great the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nki Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 The golden rule: If it sounds good, play it. I play guitar too and I could care less about theory (although I do know the basic stuff you are supposed to know). Instead of focusing on whether something is theoretically correct you should focus on playing with feeling and emotion. You aren't going to connect with your audience through theory, it's going to be through emotional quality of your playing. And although I do not know Jimmy Page, I'm sure he would agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danelectro Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 If all music adhered to rules it would be boring. The essence of rock is that it is anti rules, musical and social. That's what makes it different and exciting. Rock is supposed to be messy, angry and close to falling of the edge. When it's not it's safe and boring. It took me a while to realize that, I've been playing guitar for 32 years. You learn music, develope technique and then toss the rules out. If you don't you can't be creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad dog Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I have my friend here with me who is a guitarist of 8 years. He's not what you'd call a Zeppelin fan - I was playing Black Dog and he pointed out the riff that is played at 40 seconds in and ends at roughly 48 seconds. He says, "The riff doesn't fit rythmically in to the song. It's about one note too long to fit properly." I need your suggestions on this guys, because as a fan I've tried being unbiased about this and I've tried seeing it from his point of view, and I can kind of understand but unlike him, I don't think it sounds bad. So be as unbiased as you can and give me your opinions. LMAO... Your friend appears to only know one time signature. Get him playing some odd time signatures and a whole new world will open up for him...that section is 5/8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinky Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Rock and Roll is not about structure, if it feels good do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 LMAO... Your friend appears to only know one time signature. Get him playing some odd time signatures and a whole new world will open up for him...that section is 5/8 Black Dog, a song that is like a complex fine wine. This contains some complicated time signatures arranged by Jones, which Bonham ignored, playing a steady 4/4 beat instead (Jones thinks that is what made the song work). Jones wanted to write a song that people couldn't "groove" or dance to. The clever time signature does just that. Zeppelin bass player John Paul Jones got the idea for this song after hearing Muddy Waters' "Electric Mud." He wanted to try "Electric Blues with a rolling bass part." The start and stop a cappella verses were inspired by Fleetwood Mac's 1969 song "Oh Well." The guitars are heavily layered. Four separate Jimmy Page guitar tracks were overdubbed. Page recorded the guitar directly into a 1176 limiter preamp (manufactured by Universal Audio), distorted the stages of it, and then sent that to a normally operating limiter. In other words, no guitar amplifier was used in the recording process. John Bonham's drumming was patterned after Little Richard's "Keep a Knockin'." The sounds at the beginning are Jimmy Page warming up his guitar. He called it "Waking up the army of guitars." http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=334 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hecube Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 As a guitarist of 21 years, I can tell you the song is fine the way it is. Tell your friend there's more to life than standard 4/4 time signatures, E tonality and mashed potatoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgeholder Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I still wonder how they come in after every verse live. IS there a count? Or do they just jump on it as soon as Robert finishes? Bonzo talks about how they had a count (in that rehearsal tape) but I'm still trying to figure it out. I think maybe they only listen to his last line to use as a count. Anyone know for sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunChild Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 There was a quote by Nancy Wilson from Heart who said something along the lines that to play it right, you have to learn it wrong. Exactly! I thought the brilliance of the thing is that the drum eventually matches up? Hence "rolling bass part" - ? What goes around, comes around... When your friend wraps his head around Black Dog's rhythm, he may suddenly become a bigger Zep fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I still wonder how they come in after every verse live. IS there a count? Or do they just jump on it as soon as Robert finishes? Bonzo talks about how they had a count (in that rehearsal tape) but I'm still trying to figure it out. I think maybe they only listen to his last line to use as a count. Anyone know for sure? On the album, Bonzo clicks his sticks together as a marker for the band to come back in. Live, they came in when Robert finished the vocals line - much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigledzepfan1963 Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 if it is wrong,it's the best musically wrong song i have ever heard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Here is a quote from Chris Welch's book " Led Zeppelin Dazed and Confused, The Story Behind Every Song" concerning Black Dog: An unexpected Latin funk groove from Bonham lifts the piece out of the rhythmic rut, while Page's guitar riff is astonishingly basic but entirely self'assured. In fact the piece chugs over an odd time signature (a mixture of 4/4 set against 5/4) and is full of unpredictable rests, which belie its apparent simplicity. John Paul Jones was responsible for the riff and arrangement, while Page overdubbed no less than four guitar tracks using a Gibson Les Paul guitar put through a direct injection box. Andy Johns recalls that they tripple tracked three rhythm guitars to get a satisfying stereo spread . Page later said that the band always tried to encourage the laid back John Paul Jones to write more material, and this was undoubtedly one of his most effective and powerful themes. The strange noise at the beginning of the piece was, as Page described it: "The guitar army waking up. Rise and shine!" So the backing beat is in 4/4 time while the overlying riff is in 5/4 time, is my understanding of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedNoodle Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 You are correct that it does consist of 4/4 5/4 transitions. They had trouble playing it right in the studio until bonham figured out it works if he ignores the change in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert's Plant Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 well those that bought the million copies did not complain. tgif. im out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunChild Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 You are correct that it does consist of 4/4 5/4 transitions. They had trouble playing it right in the studio until bonham figured out it works if he ignores the change in time. That sums it up! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfman Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Tell your friend that there is a reason why Zeppelin are millionaires and he isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquamarine Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Tell your friend that there is a reason why Zeppelin are millionaires and he isn't. They're better-looking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabe Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 That,plus charisma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil's Haircut Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 It just means that Bonham would have to play 5 measures to the other guys 4 to come back to the ONE beat. No problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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