Slade Palagarising Led Zep!

[John Bergqvist]

I was listening to in my time of dying and i noticed that the riff just before the guitar solo, at around 4:57 - 5:06 is exactly the same as the guitar riff running right throughout (except for the churchy bit at the beginning, the riff starts @ 1:28-ish) Rock and Roll Preacher by Slade, on the Till Deaf Do Us Part album. It's even in the same key and everything. Since the Led Zep song came out first, am i right in assuming that Slade could have nicked it off of the Zep? plz comment.

Edited December 4, 2008 by John Bergqvist

[Aquamarine]

I was listening to in my time of dying and i noticed that the riff just before the guitar solo, at around 4:57 - 5:06 is exactly the same as the guitar riff running right throughout (except for the churchy bit at the beginning, the riff starts @ 1:28-ish) Rock and Roll Preacher by Slade, on the Till Deaf Do Us Part album. It's even in the same key and everything. Since the Led Zep song came out first, am i right in assuming that Slade could have nicked it off of the Zep? plz comment.

Or, since they knew each other of old (Plant and Bonham, anyway), Zep could have previously nicked it off them, or they could both have used a riff original to neither of them, or it could just be a complete coincidence . . . Whatever it was, calling it plagiarizing would be a mite overstated.

[John Bergqvist]

Or, since they knew each other of old (Plant and Bonham, anyway), Zep could have previously nicked it off them, or they could both have used a riff original to neither of them, or it could just be a complete coincidence . . . Whatever it was, calling it plagiarizing would be a mite overstated.

yeh ok is a bit of an overstatement. it was just a thought.

[mad dog]

I was listening to in my time of dying and i noticed that the riff just before the guitar solo, at around 4:57 - 5:06 is exactly the same as the guitar riff running right throughout (except for the churchy bit at the beginning, the riff starts @ 1:28-ish) Rock and Roll Preacher by Slade, on the Till Deaf Do Us Part album. It's even in the same key and everything. Since the Led Zep song came out first, am i right in assuming that Slade could have nicked it off of the Zep? plz comment.

Its blues...all blues is plagarized

[Aquamarine]

Again, I don't think that's the right word. A lot of blues is traditional music which is in the public domain, or whose originators are impossible to pin down, so it's hardly the same principle. Plagiarism is deliberate theft.

[John Bergqvist]

Again, I don't think that's the right word. A lot of blues is traditional music which is in the public domain, or whose originators are impossible to pin down, so it's hardly the same principle. Plagiarism is deliberate theft.

also that riff seems a more original part of the song.

[TheZeppyWanderer]

Who 'influenced' who and when, is a question which applies to just about every band since the dawn of time.

Slade and led Zepppelin have links going back to the mid 60s, via of course Messrs Holder and Plant in the West Midlands. Noddy Holder's father had a window-cleaning business, and when Noddy himself did not have a gig, he would drive Robert (and Bonzo) to theirs.

Under their first name of 'The 'N Betweens', Slade's first single release was 'You Better Run', on the Columbia label. Robert also had his own version of the song.

Slade's early gigs were played at the Three Men In A Boat pub, which was a bit of a haunt for young musicians - note the telegram featured on this site's homepage, sent by Peter Grant to the venue, presumably so that if the elusive Robert did not receive it, one of his pals might pass the message on.

Not really a massive shock, if some of the songs from these bands turned out to bear somewhat of a resemblabce.

[BIGDAN]

Again, I don't think that's the right word. A lot of blues is traditional music which is in the public domain, or whose originators are impossible to pin down, so it's hardly the same principle. Plagiarism is deliberate theft.

Sorry to be picky 'Aquamarine' but calling Plagiarism theft is no right as although you might borrow or copy someones work, they still have the original so no theft ever occured. Copying is one thing, theft is another.

Regards, Danny.

[Aquamarine]

Sorry to be picky 'Aquamarine' but calling Plagiarism theft is no right as although you might borrow or copy someones work, they still have the original so no theft ever occured. Copying is one thing, theft is another.

Regards, Danny.

It's theft of intellectual property--the concrete forms it exists in are irrelevant to the principle. Copying their idea and pretending it's your idea is in effect stealing their idea.

Dictionary.com tells us it means

noun

1. a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work

2. the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own

[Note no. 2--that's where the concept of stealing comes in]

and that the source of the word is

1621, from L. plagiarius "kidnapper, seducer, plunderer," used in the sense of "literary thief" by Martial, from plagium "kidnapping," from plaga "snare, net," from PIE base *p(e)lag- "flat, spread out." Plagiary is attested from 1597.

[BIGDAN]

It's theft of intellectual property--the concrete forms it exists in are irrelevant to the principle. Copying their idea and pretending it's your idea is in effect stealing their idea.

Dictionary.com tells us it means

noun

1. a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work

2. the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own

[Note no. 2--that's where the concept of stealing comes in]

and that the source of the word is

1621, from L. plagiarius "kidnapper, seducer, plunderer," used in the sense of "literary thief" by Martial, from plagium "kidnapping," from plaga "snare, net," from PIE base *p(e)lag- "flat, spread out." Plagiary is attested from 1597.

I'll give you that, you did your homework there, but its "literary thief" not theft as in stealing as its only an idea that was taken, not something tangable like actualy taking the manuscripts and denying the writer the use of his own work.

I my world, plagiarizm is not as bad as stealing or theft as all you are doing is making money in your own right, even if it is with borrowed/copied material, it doesnt stop or detract from the original owner of the material from making money from it, it is about the borrower not giving credit for his borrowing, to call it thieft is wrong, just my opinion.

Regards, Danny

PS, I have never payed the owner of the copywrite of the "Alaphabet" any money, or any person who has made up a word thats in any dictionary, so am I plagiarizing their work? Just a thought.

[mad dog]

Again, I don't think that's the right word. A lot of blues is traditional music which is in the public domain, or whose originators are impossible to pin down, so it's hardly the same principle. Plagiarism is deliberate theft.

All musicians steal (use whatever word you want). There is not one who hasnt. Music is a vocabulary and like a learning a language you 'steal' phrases, words, concepts, etc. It is also a concept highly emphasized in music schools. There is a notion that there is something wrong with it but in reality there is nothing wrong with it. Once you learn the vocabulary your style then begins to come out as we are all individuals.

[Aquamarine]

I'll give you that, you did your homework there, but its "literary thief" not theft as in stealing as its only an idea that was taken, not something tangable like actualy taking the manuscripts and denying the writer the use of his own work.

I my world, plagiarizm is not as bad as stealing or theft as all you are doing is making money in your own right, even if it is with borrowed/copied material, it doesnt stop or detract from the original owner of the material from making money from it, it is about the borrower not giving credit for his borrowing, to call it thieft is wrong, just my opinion.

Regards, Danny

PS, I have never payed the owner of the copywrite of the "Alaphabet" any money, or any person who has made up a word thats in any dictionary, so am I plagiarizing their work? Just a thought.

"Only" an idea??

In my world, plagiarism will get you tossed out of college for stealing someone else's ideas. That's why I used the term "intellectual theft." The physical manifestations of it don't matter. The idea itself is the important thing, and appropriating somebody else's idea to use as your own is stealing it from them. In many contexts, if you've used the idea first, and it's been successful, theirs becomes worthless.

You're not pretending you invented the letters of the alphabet and demanding credit for them.

And as for music, it's the terminology that's the issue--of course everybody is influenced by previous musicians, just like all writers are influenced by previous writers. But take something written by somebody else and deliberately pretend you wrote it, and demand credit--that's plagiarism. And if the other person had first copyrighted it, it's copyright infringement.

[BIGDAN]

"Only" an idea??

In my world, plagiarism will get you tossed out of college for stealing someone else's ideas. That's why I used the term "intellectual theft." The physical manifestations of it don't matter. The idea itself is the important thing, and appropriating somebody else's idea to use as your own is stealing it from them. In many contexts, if you've used the idea first, and it's been successful, theirs becomes worthless.

You're not pretending you invented the letters of the alphabet and demanding credit for them.

And as for music, it's the terminology that's the issue--of course everybody is influenced by previous musicians, just like all writers are influenced by previous writers. But take something written by somebody else and deliberately pretend you wrote it, and demand credit--that's plagiarism. And if the other person had first copyrighted it, it's copyright infringement.

'Aquamarine' you are very smart and fought your corner well, and for the most part I agree wholeheartedly with you. And thanks for a good discussion without all the usual insults I have expected from people on here, you are truly civilised.

I'm still gonna call it "plagiarism", as "thieft" conjures up something more sinister to me. Maybe I just dont want to call Jimmy Page a thief. Recently I saw a guy on TV (Davey Graham) play a thing called "She moved through the Bazzar", its was and exact copy of Jimmys "White Summer", only done before Jimmys version, but he copied it from an old Irish song called "She moved through the fair". Jimmy copying Daveys version only made people more aware of Davey and may have made him more money and given him a larger audience.

But I do believe that musicians should credit their work correcty and give credit where credit is due, and pay for it, but I wont be calling them thieves.

Regards, Danny

Edited December 5, 2008 by BIGDAN

[Aquamarine]

'Aquamarine' you are very smart and fought your corner well, and for the most part I agree wholeheartedly with you. And thanks for a good discussion without all the usual insults I have expected from people on hear, you are truly civilised.

I'm still gonna call it "plagiarism", as "thieft" conjures up something more sinister to me. Maybe I just dont want to call Jimmy Page a thief. Recently I saw a guy on TV (Davey Graham) play a thing called "She moved through the Bazzar", its was and exact copy of Jimmys "White Summer", only done before Jimmys version, but he copied it from an old Irish song called "She moved through the fair". Jimmy copying Daveys version only made people more aware of Davey and may have made him more money and given him a larger audience.

But I do believe that musicians should credit their work correcty and give credit where credit is due, and pay for it, but I wont be calling them thieves.

Regards, Danny

Aw shucks.

(I agree with you that plagiarism sounds better than theft, but that's still what it is! Its effects don't matter.)

[BIGDAN]

Aw shucks.

(I agree with you that plagiarism sounds better than theft, but that's still what it is! Its effects don't matter.)

I give in to a more eloquent writer, i surrender to you sir, (or madam).

Does that make Jimmy a thief, or just a Magpie?

http://www.furious.com/Perfect/jimmypage.html

Regards, Danny

[Aquamarine]

Let's make him a magpie. I don't think the poor guy ever claimed to be the first to use a violin bow.

(It's madam. )

[Rorer714]

'Aquamarine' you are very smart and fought your corner well, and for the most part I agree wholeheartedly with you. And thanks for a good discussion without all the usual insults I have expected from people on hear, you are truly civilised.

Regards, Danny

I'll be one of those people for you Danny....learn how to spell you big long-eared thieving galoot.

I'm just taking the mickey again,Danny! (I'm getting a bit more tactful in my old age)

[BIGDAN]

I'll be one of those people for you Danny....learn how to spell you big long-eared thieving galoot.

I'm just taking the mickey again,Danny! (I'm getting a bit more tactful in my old age)

Thanks 'Rorer714' for showing everyone on "hear" what a complete twat I can be, well some of the time. And I know how to spell thank you very much, I just dont know which version should be submitted some of the time, and its getting late, and i'm hungry, and dis-lex-hic, and i know thats spelt wrong, so leave me alone please.

Regards, Danny

[Rorer714]

Thanks 'Rorer714' for showing everyone on "hear" what a complete twat I can be, well some of the time. And I know how to spell thank you very much, I just dont know which version should be submitted some of the time, and its getting late, and i'm hungry, and dis-lex-hic, and i know thats spelt wrong, so leave me alone please.

Regards, Danny

We all can be "twats" Danny. I love a good argument,but I had a good feeling Aqua was gonna get it right She'd make for a good teacher,eh? Ya hear me?

[BIGDAN]

We all can be "twats" Danny. I love a good argument,but I had a good feeling Aqua was gonna get it right She'd make for a good teacher,eh? Ya hear me?

I ear ya.

[BIGDAN]

Let's make him a magpie. I don't think the poor guy ever claimed to be the first to use a violin bow.

(It's madam. )

Hi Madam (I should have remembered that, and your from Wales ah?)

I saw a guy in another group back in the mid sixties use a violin bow on a guitar, but for the life of me I cant remember who it was, and it was on "Top of The Pops". Any one help ear/hear/here?

Regards, Danny

[Aquamarine]

Hi Madam (I should have remembered that, and your from Wales ah?)

I saw a guy in another group back in the mid sixties use a violin bow on a guitar, but for the life of me I cant remember who it was, and it was on "Top of The Pops". Any one help ear/hear/here?

Regards, Danny

You are correct, sir, and I can't remember, either.

(Your spelling is a lot better than the spelling in the thread title. )

[BIGDAN]

You are correct, sir, and I can't remember, either.

(Your spelling is a lot better than the spelling in the thread title. )

Me correct, must be a thirst. fanks Aqua.

Just to stay on topic, I was a big Slade fan back in the day, remember them as Ambrose Slade as well, showing my age there/their/dare.

Regards Aqua, Danny

[Aquamarine]

Does this mean we're engaged?

[BIGDAN]

Does this mean we're engaged?

Now dont get all sloppy on me Aqua, being engaged to a rock chick like yourself would be ultimately too much for me to bear/bare/beer. But the odd one night stand on this forum will do me just fine, how about you?

Regards, your loving groopie, Danny