Obama freezes Guantanamo Bay for 120 days

[BIGDAN]

Okay, you go ahead and believe waterboarding isn't torture. Meanwhile, I'll accept the word of people who would know....members of our military who have come forward and said that yes, it is torture. I am aware what goes on in SERE training, and so are they.

So if they call it torture then I think it's safe for me to do likewise.

Hi 'Electrophile'

I have to agree with you on this, from the Geneva Convention 1949.

"PART III CAPTIVITY

SECTION I

BEGINNING OF CAPTIVITY

Article 17

Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information. If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status.

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

Prisoners of war who, owing to their physical or mental condition, are unable to state their identity, shall be handed over to the medical service. The identity of such prisoners shall be established by all possible means, subject to the provisions of the preceding paragraph.

The questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out in a language which they understand."

Link. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

But what if the US military deceided that the prisoners were not POWs but Terrorists?

"But one need not go this far as concerns the Taliban. If one accepts that its soldiers were acting openly as members of an organized army with a recognizable command structure, then they are most of the way home as far as POW status is concerned."

"The final step, embodied in the Hague Convention of 1907, and reaffirmed by Geneva law, requires that the Taliban conduct themselves in accord with the "laws and customs of war." While the United States has never explained precisely why it does not regard its Taliban captives as POWs, it is presumably on this point that the matter turns, and then only indirectly, since the claim is apparently not that the prisoners engaged in illegal conduct on the battlefield, but that they fought for a regime that harbored terrorists, refused to cooperate with lawful international authority, and so on. A similar note has lately crept into official pronouncements about Iraq, which have included the suggestion that Iraqi soldiers who employ weapons of mass destruction against American armed forces will be held personally responsible for having done so. Much trouble lies at the end of this line of reasoning, not least because the United States currently has thousands of uniformed personnel charged with the care and operation of nuclear weapons. Neither the United States nor any of its similarly situated allies would accept that such individuals automatically become war criminals in the event the weapons are fired."

"The United States is in fact firmly on record as opposing the idea that individual combatants lose their legal protections, including their right to POW status, simply because the conduct of their governments is deemed criminal by the other side. The issue arose when the 1949 Geneva Conventions were being negotiated, and concerned the question of what to do about POWs who were charged with war crimes by their captors. The United States feared that, in some future conflict with the Soviet bloc, American POWs might get shipped off to the Gulag as a consequence of some charge of having waged "aggressive war," or of having murdered civilians by indiscriminate aerial bombardment—fear that was fully vindicated during the Vietnam war, when captured American pilots were indeed threatened with trial for war crimes. It is as a consequence of this American concern that Geneva law now affords protection even to convicted war criminals, provided they are also POWs: a prisoner of war who is tried and found guilt of crimes committed before capture retains the full protections of POW status throughout the length of whatever criminal sentence might be handed down."

And this is the daming bit.

"There are no circumstances in which any prisoner, legal POW or not, may be subject to such abuse under international law"

Link http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/sept02/law.asp

I think we can all agree that it is very complicated, "name, rank, serial number." is all very well in the movies but in real life where information saves lives, you can see where the US military are comming from.

Maybe the Geneva Convention should never have been signed, but as it has I think that the US should remember that the other side can disreguard it as well, as they have done on many occations. Maybe this is what has made the US throw away the rule book and do it another way, who knows?

Regards, Danny

[Electrophile]

Then there's no distinguishing for you?

Playing Barry Manilow's "Brandy" 24-7 is the same as electric shock?

And my previous question remains - is there ANY form of interrogation that's acceptable?

The song is Mandy, not Brandy. Brandy was performed by Looking Glass.

You didn't read what I said. I said I have read reports and comments from members of our military who say that waterboarding is torture. I will side with people who would know better than me, what is torture and what is not. I never said playing shitty music 24-7 is the same as physical torture. No one at any point made that analogy but you.

I don't need to know what other methods our military should use to interrogate people to know that torturing them is unequivocally, 100%, completly WRONG. I don't know shit about roofing, but I can tell you burning the house down to fix the roof is a really stupid idea.

[bigstickbonzo]

Most likely extraditing them to certain countries for specific reasons or bringing them to the US and incarcerating them here..which should drive alot of the nut jobs bananas.

[zepyep]

As President Obama pushes for the closure of Guantanamo Bay prison, the debate over where to house the terror detainees being held there is heating up.

An exclusive video of a former Gitmo detainee's martyrdom tape, obtained by FOX News, is a reminder of the concerns that terror suspects — who have been held but released from Guantanamo Bay — are increasingly returning to the fight against the United States and its allies.

Abdallah Ali al-Ajmi was transferred back to his home country of Kuwait after his release from Guantanamo in 2005. Last April he blew himself up in a homicide attack that killed 12 people in Mosul, Iraq.

Al-Ajmi, known in Guantanamo as Detainee 220, made his martyrdom tape before the attack.

"In the name of Allah, most compassionate, most merciful and prayers and peace be upon our Prophet," al-Ajmi says in the video. "I thank Allah, Lord of the Worlds, who freed me from Guantanamo prison and, after we were tortured, connected me with the Islamic State of Iraq [iSI]. And it is the gift of Allah to follow the path of this nation, the ISI."

In the video, translated by the NEFA Foundation, a non-profit that tracks terror groups, al-Ajmi mentions Guantanamo Bay right away. For many jihadists, having served time at Guantanamo is seen as a badge of honor.

var adsonar_placementId="1425871",adsonar_pid="1367767",adsonar_ps="-1",adsonar_zw=224;adsonar_zh=93,adsonar_jv="ads.adsonar.com"; qas_writeAd(); Click here to visit the NEFA Foundation Web site.

Al-Ajmi's attack is one of the most well known and well documented cases of an ex-Gitmo detainee returning to the battlefield as a homicide bomber. His video renews concerns of many in the intelligence community of the potential consequences by releasing these prisoners.

Sixty-two detainees released from the U.S. Navy base prison in Cuba are believed to have rejoined the fight, said Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell, citing data from December. That's up from 37 as of March 2008, Morrell said.

The new figures come as President-elect Barack Obama issued an executive order last week to close the controversial prison. It's unlikely, however, that the Guantanamo detention facility will be closed anytime soon as Obama weighs what to do with the estimated 250 Al Qaeda, Taliban or other foreign fighter suspects still there.

FOX News' Catherine Herridge and the Associated Press contributed to this report.

[TypeO]

The song is Mandy, not Brandy. Brandy was performed by Looking Glass.

I thought about that later when I was too busy at work to come back for an edit

You didn't read what I said. I said I have read reports and comments from members of our military who say that waterboarding is torture. I will side with people who would know better than me, what is torture and what is not. I never said playing shitty music 24-7 is the same as physical torture. No one at any point made that analogy but you.

I did read what you said, I just asked what I did because you don't seem to make a distinction.

That's why I made the shitty music example.

Because no one seems to make a distinction, not just you.

I don't need to know what other methods our military should use to interrogate people to know that torturing them is unequivocally, 100%, completly WRONG. I don't know shit about roofing, but I can tell you burning the house down to fix the roof is a really stupid idea.

This is what I'm referring to ^^^

You make that a blanket statement, and I'm asking are you speaking of waterboarding specifically when you say torture, or ANYTHING that might be considered torture?

And I'm not tryin' to push buttons here, only trying to pinpoint your view/opinion.

[Electrophile]

If it's considered torture, I don't want this government condoning it or this military participating in it. Period.

I thought that was rather clear when I said I don't know how many times I don't want this military torturing people.

[TypeO]

That's my point – some people say the shitty music is torture.

I'm just asking do you feel that way as well.

Do you feel annoying a prisoner is torture?

In fact, let's forget Mandy. (I actually really like Brandy, it's one I love to sing poorly to.)

Instead, we will repeatedly play Heartbreaker over and over - without ever following up with Living Loving Maid.

Not at excessive volume, but loud enough to really feel that staccato solo and get yer air guitar on, and every time as it leads up to the finish, Living Loving Maid is denied.

We won't even disturb the detainee's sleep, only play it during every waking hour.

But NEVER, EVER will he feel the release of Living Loving Maid filling the sudden silence.

Torture?

I think we both know it is.

Side note: With the advent of that most heinous of Classic Rock station gimmicks known as "Two-fer Tuesday", and to a lesser extent, the various "Get the Led Out" segments, I actually came to despise stations for permanently bonding those 2 songs. I used to long to hear one without the other just for the simple acknowledgment that they were 2 distinct tracks.

[Electrophile]

I'm talking about pratices that the US government and the World Court deem to be torture. Waterboarding, sensory deprivation, hooking electrodes up to someone's testicles, rape, beatings, etc,.

I think your example of playing Heartbreaker and not following it up with Living Loving Maid while funny, sure as fuck isn't torture. Sorry. Why not give the example of giving them apple pie a la mode, and then continually forgetting the ice cream?

[kirchzep27]

I just saw a thing on pbs tonight on -the beirers, not sure on the spelling of the group, but they apparently were against -china. this group was not a threat to the -us in an any way, but they couldnt find a country to take them. some were let go, to live in -albania and -china was trying to get those folks back to -china. the rest were in guantanamo bay and the lawyers described how over 7 yrs they just became despondant, negative and didnt want to talk anymore. at one point, their bed sheets were taken away and one of them told the lawyers to forget the case, cause he'd rather have bed sheets than deal with the process. it was a horror story on the process that went on there, but showed how complicated the situation is.

[L 7]

^^^^^^^^^^

I saw this on Frontline last night as well.

Horrible how these people were treated after just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think the correct name is Uighurs.

They were declared not a threat, had their lives destroyed, lost their families and held for 8 years.

Now no one knows what to do with them. I think the US should let them come here and bring their families. We at leat owe that much.

[kirchzep27]

^^^^^^^^^^

I saw this on Frontline last night as well.

Horrible how these people were treated after just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think the correct name is Uighurs.

They were declared not a threat, had their lives destroyed, lost their families and held for 8 years.

Now no one knows what to do with them. I think the US should let them come here and bring their families. We at leat owe that much.

Yeah, quite a tragic circumstance. i agree, they should be allowed to come to the -us if they want to. i don't know how they could get their families, after seeing how difficult things have been so far.

[cryingbluerain]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

Not Guantanamo, but..

Obama Upholds Detainee Policy in Afghanistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/washingt...2bagram.html?hp

“It may take some time before we see exactly what is going on — whether this is just a transitory policy or whether this is really their policy: ‘No to Guantánamo, but we can just create Guantánamo in some other place,’ ”

[TypeO]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

Not Guantanamo, but..

Obama Upholds Detainee Policy in Afghanistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/washingt...2bagram.html?hp

“It may take some time before we see exactly what is going on — whether this is just a transitory policy or whether this is really their policy: ‘No to Guantánamo, but we can just create Guantánamo in some other place,’ ”

I :lolo:'d

[cryingbluerain]

What did she know and when did she know it??

[BlackandGold]

That's my point – some people say the shitty music is torture.

I'm just asking do you feel that way as well.

Do you feel annoying a prisoner is torture?

In fact, let's forget Mandy. (I actually really like Brandy, it's one I love to sing poorly to.)

Instead, we will repeatedly play Heartbreaker over and over - without ever following up with Living Loving Maid.

Not at excessive volume, but loud enough to really feel that staccato solo and get yer air guitar on, and every time as it leads up to the finish, Living Loving Maid is denied.

We won't even disturb the detainee's sleep, only play it during every waking hour.

But NEVER, EVER will he feel the release of Living Loving Maid filling the sudden silence.

Torture?

I think we both know it is.

Side note: With the advent of that most heinous of Classic Rock station gimmicks known as "Two-fer Tuesday", and to a lesser extent, the various "Get the Led Out" segments, I actually came to despise stations for permanently bonding those 2 songs. I used to long to hear one without the other just for the simple acknowledgment that they were 2 distinct tracks.

Ok serious subject, but this post is funny as hell!

[TypeO]

Ok serious subject, but this post is funny as hell!

Thank you good sir.

I do my best.

[DRUNK08]

Closing Gauntamo is stupid. It's nothing but a political chess move to try and appease a stupid public.

I wish they actually tortured the enemy, and not to gain information, but to just torture them for the hell of it.

How do you liberal scum bags like that?

[Hotplant]

[THE FIRST LEDZEP]

Last Tuesday, as President Obama got off the Helicopter in front of the

White House, he was carrying a baby piglet under each arm.

The squared away Marine guard snaps to attention, Salutes, and says:

"Nice pigs, Sir."

The President replies: "These are not pigs. These are authentic

Arkansas Razorback Hogs. I got one for Secretary of State Hillary

Clinton and I got one for Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi."

The squared away Marine again snaps to attention, Salutes, and says:

"Excellent trades, sir."

[Bong-Man]

I must admit, this is a great idea. You can't escape when you're already nowhere. We could even torture them with pasties !

http://www.freep.com/article/20090506/NEWS...s+on+UP+prisons

Guantanamo North? Engler suggests UP prisons

By Dawson Bell • Free Press Lansing Bureau • May 6, 2009

LANSING - Here’s one idea – we didn’t say it was a good one – for Michigan policymakers seeking a way out of the current budget morass. Offer up one of our soon-to-be-excess state prisons as the new home for enemy combatant/terrorists housed at Guantanamo Bay Cuba.

The notion comes from former Gov. John Engler, who offered it up at a political strategy session last week at the state Capitol with current and former Republican legislators. Engler suggested an Upper Peninsula location for Guantanamo North, according to those in attendance.

More than 200 Guantanamo prisoners are to be relocated over the next year under a plan by the Obama administration to close the controversial facility. No specific plans have been announced about what to do with the prisoners. But Engler suggested the state could charge up to $1 billion a year to turn a prison into a terrorist-holding facility.

Senate Majority Leader Mike Bishop, R-Rochester, said Tuesday he found Engler’s idea “interesting,” but believes it unlikely anyone now in office will turn it into a formal proposal.

Russ Marlan, spokesman for the Michigan Department of Corrections, said this morning that state prison officials plan to empty several facilities by Oct. 1 and reduce the overall prison population by about 3,000 inmates. The department has made inquiries to states around the country and to the federal government about potential interest in renting some of Michigan’s excess prison beds, he said.

But the offer was not intended to include Guantanamo prisoners, Marlan said.

Michigan has relatively new, high-security state prisons near Baraga and Munising. Baraga has a capacity of 880 for prisoners in security levels I-IV. The Alger prison outside of Munising is a maximum security facility with beds for about 530.

Engler could not be reached for comment late last week or today.

Speculation about moving Guantanamo prisoners to facilities in Virginia, Montana, Florida or Kansas has prompted mostly negative response from elected officials in those states.

Engler is the president of the National Association of Manufacturers.

Contact DAWSON BELL: 517-372-8661 or dbell@freepress.com.

[Bong-Man]

Jesse Knows Torture

[Bong-Man]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2...n_michigan.html

Bring 'em on !