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I don't think the dispute is with the groupies who have kiss and told, but more with the people who seem to judge Jimmy's long-term relationships. They seem to think it's perfectly alright to not only judge, but state such a biased opinion on them.

But, here’s the thing: many of those opinions are most likely drawn from books they’ve read about Zeppelin that are filled with speculation and even worse, lies. I’ll be the first to admit I’ve read a ton of those, so, for me anyway, I would feel like a hypocrite slamming a fan for doing the same thing, whether I agree with it or not. At least no one here is cashing in on it, just expressing an opinion. Of course there’s no possible way the poster could know how Jimmy felt about someone, but neither could Mick Wall have possibly known what he was thinking and it didn’t stop him.

Jimmy did not start his musical career on the basis that his private life would be speculated, and on that level

I never said that he did. In fact, it would be pretty stupid to say that anyone does. What I’m saying is it is PART of being a celebrity. Always has been, always will be, and anyone who sets out on that road knows this, because all of them have been fans of others themselves. Is it right? No. Is it fair? No. Is life fair for anyone? Uh...no.

The time for judging them has long since passed. Some of us need to get over it.

Where was I judging groupies? Please! I’m one of Ms. P’s biggest fans.

I totally disagree with you here. Do you seriously believe that every "famous" person was aiming for that?

There are exceptions to every rule, of course. But, for the majority, it takes a HUGE amount of ambition and determination to even get your foot in the door. How many times has a famous person said “You have to really want it to make it?”

Most people that can be considered artists were simply doing what they do best, and fame is just something that came along with it.

I completely disagree. That is the exception rather than the rule just based on how competitive and cutthroat it is to become a professional singer, actor, etc.

For example, a record label offered me a deal two years ago and I turned it down for a number of reasons which are not relevant here but I can tell you one of the major worries I had was "will I become big enough to be deemed "famous"

You just proved my point. You made a choice. You knew the price of fame and all that came along with it, and you chose to forego it. Others know the price just as you do, and go for it.

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Patricia, Charlotte and Jimena haven't written any books, that's the thing. They've stayed completely silent on the subject of Jimmy, yet people seem to rank one woman higher than the other. One is more intelligent, one is more beautiful, one is more friendly. It was never a competition. Each woman gave Jimmy something that he obviously couldn't find in any other person. Why is it some people's mission to find out about it and then tear it down? There is zero ground for judgement on these women when they've not even spoken out about Jimmy.

I'm not about you, Songbird, by the way. Just thought I'd reply to your quote and then have a rant :D

Yep, I totally agree with you!

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QUOTE (Aligula @ Feb 5 2009, 01:30 PM)

I totally disagree with you here. Do you seriously believe that every "famous" person was aiming for that?

There are exceptions to every rule, of course. But, for the majority, it takes a HUGE amount of ambition and determination to even get your foot in the door. How many times has a famous person said “You have to really want it to make it?”

What?

This reply makes no sense.

Did anyone dispute the effort it takes to "make it"? I asked do you seriously believe that every "famous" person simply set out to be famous. In your earlier post (which I've quoted) you heavily imply that this is the case. So your reply here doesn't really answer anything...

QUOTE (Aligula @ Feb 5 2009, 01:30 PM)

Most people that can be considered artists were simply doing what they do best, and fame is just something that came along with it.

I completely disagree. That is the exception rather than the rule just based on how competitive and cutthroat it is to become a professional singer, actor, etc.

Once again, I'm not disputing that they have to make an effort etc to "make it" in a highly competitive industry but what I mean is, people we can consider "artists" and not mere "celebrities" were NOT searching for fame. They were pushing their art and fame is something that comes along with being successful.

QUOTE (Aligula @ Feb 5 2009, 01:30 PM)

For example, a record label offered me a deal two years ago and I turned it down for a number of reasons which are not relevant here but I can tell you one of the major worries I had was "will I become big enough to be deemed "famous"

You just proved my point. You made a choice. You knew the price of fame and all that came along with it, and you chose to forego it. Others know the price just as you do, and go for it.

No I didn't prove your point. First of all I didn't say I turned it down for that reason. I said I didn't jump at the chance to be famous for the sake of it and that in fact, fame was a major worry. It still had nothing to do with my reasons for turning it down as I previously stated.

Also, I'm not denying that people understand the price of becoming successful and choose to go for it anyway, I'm telling you artists are not craving fame and are not aiming for it for it's own sake. They want to push their work and fame is something that comes along with it.

People who crave fame are not the kind of people I'd listen to and I listen to Led Zeppelin.

Remember my posts were in reply to you stating earlier that famous people crave fame etc etc in a forum about Led Zeppelin. I'm defending people like Jimmy Page who I believe are the antithesis of the people you are describing.

If this was a Jade Goody forum, I'd be agreeing with you entirely.

I guess to wrap this up, my main point is that there is a big difference between somebody who wants to be famous and somebody that wants their work to be heard.

You seemed to suggest earlier that everyone was in the same category. They all want to be famous. That is what I am disputing.

Bands like Zeppelin don't belong in there. Otherwise Robert Plant would be back on the road with Jimmy and John already.

Bringing in the attention and money....for the sake of it.

Edited by Aligula
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But, here’s the thing: many of those opinions are most likely drawn from books they’ve read about Zeppelin that are filled with speculation and even worse, lies. I’ll be the first to admit I’ve read a ton of those, so, for me anyway, I would feel like a hypocrite slamming a fan for doing the same thing, whether I agree with it or not. At least no one here is cashing in on it, just expressing an opinion. Of course there’s no possible way the poster could know how Jimmy felt about someone, but neither could Mick Wall have possibly known what he was thinking and it didn’t stop him.

However, it's not so much the judgement of groupies that bothers me (I understand people always will, given their unorthodox lifestyle), it's the strange idea that Charlotte, Patricia, and Jimena must be ranked and judged, as well. Like I said, I'm sure many prefer one more than the other, but the reasons for doing so are purely superficial. There is zero ground for anyone (unless they actually know them) to have such an opinion on these women. And I fear some people (not you) are confusing groupies with Charlotte, Patricia and Jimena.

I never said that he did. In fact, it would be pretty stupid to say that anyone does. What I’m saying is it is PART of being a celebrity. Always has been, always will be, and anyone who sets out on that road knows this, because all of them have been fans of others themselves. Is it right? No. Is it fair? No. Is life fair for anyone? Uh...no.

I never said that it was you who suggested that they were his reasons for being a musician (note, I use 'musician' over 'famous' - one holds more prestige than the other). I'm fully aware that life isn't fair, but you implied in your earlier message that Jimmy has excepted his fate - that of an harrasssed rock star - and now must except the intrusion on his private life. This may have been a problem back in the day, but, 30 years on from their last record, I doubt Jimmy still feels it is today. Therefore, I don't feel that judgement upon Jimmy, or his family, is justified (not that it ever was).

Where was I judging groupies? Please! I’m one of Ms. P’s biggest fans.

Again, I never intimated that it was you who judged these women. I just replied to your quote.

Edited by longdistancewinner
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But people who are mature enough realize the silliness of it. Speculating about who Jimmy Page 'actually' loved or who was the 'prettiest' or 'most intelligent' of his women is not only silly, but futile, and frankly I find it kind of rude. Its not some sort of game... Jimmy Page and his past partners are real people. And a relationship between him and someone else is the same as a relationship between you and your partner. Imagine someone analyzing your relationship. That's how I think of it.... why 2 people like each other or get involved with each other or what have you no one can ever know/understand except them . You can't judge relationships. The people analyzing Jimmy's relationships wouldn't do the same thing to their friends', would they? I just can't see how the same respect can't be applied to a scenario where the only difference is that the person just happens to be famous.

Excellent point Songbird! Also, Jimmy is very private about his life. Yes, we have all seen pics of his kids, but he has never gone out of his way to show them off now has he? Or you don't see Jimena on the front page of a gossip mag willing to tell all the "secrets of their relationship" to the whole world either. Now that is called pure class!!There are too many celebs these days that love to pimp out pics of their kids or tell you every detail about their relationship and then complain when the papparazzi and tabloids start bothering them and that really sickens me! This why I don't waste a penny on that tabloid crap!! Alot of them know the price of being famous, but don't go out of their way to get that extra attention, which is mostly bad stuff anyways, they are just very serious about what they do and that is how Jimmy is and have nothing but respect for them. I find celebs alot more interesting when I don't have to hear about every move they make in their private life. People have a choice to ignore all the gossipy crap. Don't buy the mags or watch the tabloid TV shows. Just because it is how society is doesn't mean we have to buy into it.

Edited by Melanie_72
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I don't think Jimmy was "busting his ass" trying to become famous, do you?

Yeah, I'm sure it was super easy! :D Do you really think Jimmy wasn't ambitious and dedicated? But, regardless, nowhere did I say that Jimmy only got into this for money and fame. I was talking about celebrities in general. It is obvious to anyone who watches him play guitar that he loves it. But, I also think it's pretty safe to say that he wanted a lot of people to know who the hell LZ (and the Yardbirds) were, yeah? Otherwise, why bother putting a supergroup together in the first place?

That's besides the point though. Just because someone's famous doesn't give you the license to act in ways that you know aren't right.

Well, some people don't know it isn't right. Not everyone has the same moral standards and it really does no good trying to force your own on others. Especially with something like this, and here's why. Gossip and speculation is something people swear up and down they never, ever do, but I would eat my right arm if a single person could pass a lie detector test and honestly say they had never, ever speculated about someone else's private life - whether that was a friend, a family member or a celebrity. It is human nature to want to find out as much as possible about someone you are fascinated with. Would we all be here if that weren't true? This is not justification. I'm wasn't even talking about the "right/wrong" aspect in any of my other posts. We all know the answer to that, but we do it anyway. Some more than others, true.

Once again, I'm not disputing that they have to make an effort etc to "make it" in a highly competitive industry but what I mean is, people we can consider "artists" and not mere "celebrities" were NOT searching for fame. They were pushing their art and fame is something that comes along with being successful.

Well....what exactly does "making it" mean to you? I know a lot of musicians, and I've never. ever heard one say "Gosh, I hope we never get big or anything. I just like playing my guitar in Mom's living room."

Remember my posts were in reply to you stating earlier that famous people crave fame etc etc in a forum about Led Zeppelin. I'm defending people like Jimmy Page who I believe are the antithesis of the people you are describing.

Well, I actually never said that about Jimmy. But, yeah, you're right. I'm sure he would have been really ecstatic if LZ had just remained a pub band in Britain.

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Personally speaking I find much of this sort of stuff distasteful. Who Jimmy or any other bandmember slept with, dated, married or whatever is a matter for them not me. I have never really been interested in the tabloid or gossip mag stuff about anyone and especially about the musicians/band I most admire.

How anyone can say with any definitive certainty that they know how Jimmy felt about any partner is ridiculous. if Jimmy wrote a book I for one don't believe he would " dish the dirt" on his relationships, I think he would be morerespectful if he wrote about it ata all, he has never struck me as being like that.

I admire how the band members have kept and maintained much of their privacy and not been the same sort of press/media whores ( male) of some of the other famous names in rock. Now if they had all fucked each other then it might have had a tad of interest for a while but generally i don't really care.

How many of us here would like our past or current relationships discussed in such a manner as people are here?

I have been about a bit in my time and had many relationships but I rarely discuss with people about who I loved or how the relationship was or is. I don't usually mention who I have slept with by name cos that has always been between me and those women.

If i was famous I would be no different.

So let Jimmy be in this area of his life

Its fuck all to do with us. <_<

Edited by ledded1
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I'm not defending anyone. I've just taken more than my fair share of psychology classes. Would you care to take the lie detector test? :P

Yeah I'll take the lie detector test! I honestly don't care one hoot about who any celebrity is dating.... really. Mostly because I hate most celebrities, but even the ones I like, I honestly don't really care. I don't see how it concerns me, what difference does it make in my life knowing who's boinking who? And I've taken psychology classes too. :D Apparently I must just be a freak of nature because I HONESTLY am not interested in other people's personal lives, and know I have no right to be judging them.

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Both Jimmy and Robert have been very guarded about their personal lives as it should be. If they don't talk about it, I take that to mean it's not for us to be concerned with. Dissecting and judging Jimmy's past relationships on their official site (well on any forum quite frankly) I find inappropriate. Who cares? It's Jimmy's life, choices and personal business and nothing we should speculate on.

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i agree.^^

i learned that from another member on here, quite early on after i became a member. i used to want to know all about their private lives, i think because back in the day ( pre-internet for eg ) we knew little about the band at all. but i am ok with that now, and realize that what if they don't talk about it, then neither should we.

i guess if everyone just stepped back and asked themselves " how would i feel if someone said that about myself or my loved one? " then, we would all be better off.

just a thought.

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i agree.^^

i learned that from another member on here, quite early on after i became a member. i used to want to know all about their private lives, i think because back in the day ( pre-internet for eg ) we knew little about the band at all. but i am ok with that now, and realize that what if they don't talk about it, then neither should we.

i guess if everyone just stepped back and asked themselves " how would i feel if someone said that about myself or my loved one? " then, we would all be better off.

just a thought.

Also as was said before, Jimmy himself, I'm sure, would be horrified by this.

Edited by aen27
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Yeah I'll take the lie detector test! I honestly don't care one hoot about who any celebrity is dating.... really.

I didn't limit it only to celebrities. Are my posts appearing in Swahili on all your screens or something? :blink: I said:

I would eat my right arm if a single person could pass a lie detector test and honestly say they had never, ever speculated about someone else's private life - whether that was a friend, a family member or a celebrity.
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I didn't limit it only to celebrities. Are my posts appearing in Swahili on all your screens or something? :blink: I said:

What I said about minding my own business and respecting peoples' private lives applies to everyone, that's my whole point.

And yeah, all of our screens are wrong, that must be the problem. B)

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What I said about minding my own business and respecting peoples' private lives applies to everyone, that's my whole point.

And yeah, all of our screens are wrong, that must be the problem. B)

I think the problem is a lack of objectivity and the ability to be honest (and in many cases, read). My first post in this thread was about the price of fame, and just about every subsequent post has been a soapbox about moral right and wrong. Directed at me ??????? I never said I engaged in or condoned this type of behavior. My response on that issue is based on the McAndrew psychological study. The results indicated that gossip has been ingrained in our DNA to survive natural selection. We all have it. Trying to stop it is futile. And those who say they have never done it (especially via the convenience of an anonymous forum) are almost certainly lying. Can we move on now? :rolleyes:

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My god Charlotte etc etc

You seem to miss the point over and over and over and over and over and over again and then suggest our screens are broken!!

People keep calling you up on the "busting your ass to get famous" comment and those people including me are suggesting Jimmy didn't do this.

You keep replying saying things like "I'm sure it was easy" etc.

Just to clarify for you...NOBODY IS SAYING IT DIDN'T TAKE ALOT OF DRIVE, AMBITION FOR JIMMY TO GET WHERE HE IS TODAY. WE ARE SIMPLY SAYING THAT IT IS VERY DOUBTFUL THAT THE DESIRE TO BE FAMOUS WAS THE THING THAT FIRED HIM UP!

In your earlier post you implied this and this is what is being disputed. In my opinion, real artists do not think like that and I consider bands like Zeppelin to be real artists.

You also made a ridiculous reply to me about "never meeting people who thought "oh i don't want to get big. I hope we stay as a small pub band".

Again, this is a ridiculous reply and you've missed the point. You've obviously skipped over the bit in my post where it stated that "there is a difference between wanting to be heard and wanting to be famous for the sake of it". Nothing wrong with wanting to be heard and of course fame will probably come along with any success you have but this does not mean that the band or artist in question is simply "chasing fame because they need it, want it etc".

Just to remind you, this ties in with us disputing your claim that famous people "crave fame" which is what you said in your earlier post.

Now let's leave it at that!

Edited by Aligula
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Not if you're suggesting that people who hold different opinions from you are lying, I'm afraid. That's not a trivial statement.

I'm simply passing on the findings of a study. You can read it yourself if you simply google the name and "psychology of gossip."

People keep calling you up on the "busting your ass to get famous" comment and those people including me are suggesting Jimmy didn't do this.

In debate it is common to back up your claims with actual fact to support it. Care to give it a try?

In your earlier post you implied this and this is what is being disputed. In my opinion, real artists do not think like that and I consider bands like Zeppelin to be real artists.

I have stated...how many times? That I was not talking about Jimmy. My statements about fame from the start were in a general context. If you took them to be about Jimmy...that's your problem. NOWHERE, was Jimmy's name mentioned by me in that context. Nor would it be..anywhere, ever. Got it?

Nothing wrong with wanting to be heard and of course fame will probably come along with any success you have but this does not mean that the band or artist in question is simply "chasing fame because they need it, want it etc".

You seem to think fame, ambition, tenacity are dirty words. I do not. My definition of fame is that you are a recognizable figure, a celebrity. Exactly how are YOU defining it? I recognize these traits as necessary tools to make it as an artist. How exactly would you recommend an artist become successful WITHOUT becoming famous on some level? The two go hand in hand in the arts. How would you make a living at it without some level of fame? Whether it's at a local level, national or international?

And Knebby, if I get banned from this forum for attempting to have an intellectual debate, that's just fine with me.

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And Knebby, if I get banned from this forum for attempting to have an intellectual debate, that's just fine with me.

I wasn't suggesting you would get banned, and if you did, it would have nothing to do with me.

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Sorry for assuming you were referring to Jimmy...in a Led Zeppelin forum.....and a thread that is revolving around him...I guess I should have clarified...or you could have.

Second, I'm stating my opinions so it's difficult for me to back that up with fact when I don't know the man personally. I take it you know all of these celebs then because with you being keen on using facts, I'm expecting you to back up your "celebs crave fame and need it" claim with cold hard facts...

I also didn't say there was anything wrong with fame so why you thought I considered it a dirty word I'm not sure.

Once again, my simple point is that people I consider to be real artists IN MY OPINION, do not just try to become famous for the sake of it. Therefore they don't need it, want it etc. I have no problem with ambition, in fact I admire it. However, If a person's ambition was to "just get famous" then I don't think that is admirable. I'm trying to explain that famous people are not just one simple group who are all famous for the reasons that you have stated.

Like I say, there is a difference between wanting to be heard and fame coming to you as a result of your work, and "busting your ass" to try and get famous because you need to be known by millions for no other reason that for the sake of itself.

Anyway forget it. We obviously disagree but don't call for me to use facts in an "intellectual debate" when you aren't doing so either (please don't throw your psychology stuff at me, that has nothing to do with your sweeping generalisations about famous people).

Edited by Aligula
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Whatever this is hopeless. :rolleyes: Go on defending all the creepy stalker girls on this forum who talk complete bullshit about Jimmy's lovers, and I'll just go on acting like a rational sane-minded human being! :D

:D

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