BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Usually in societies where people are well informed about contraception and family-planning, and where single parents get enough support, abortions and teenage pregnancies become naturally pretty rare even when abortion is free. On the other hand in conservative societies where abortion is illegal and teenagers don't recieve proper sex education, teenage pregnancies and dangerous abortions are much more common. Oh Yeah, Blame it on conservatism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Oh Yeah, Blame it on conservatism! I do, actually. The idea of opposing unnecessary abortions is great, but conservative politicians often seem to be more interested in rhetoric games and advancing their own careers than about saving lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I do, actually. The idea of opposing unnecessary abortions is great, but conservative politicians often seem to be more interested in rhetoric games and advancing their own careers than about saving lives. I don't see the correlation here! Opposing abortion is about saving lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I don't see the correlation here! Opposing abortion is about saving lives! What I mean is that politicians can be populistic and hypocritical. We shouldn't just listen to what they say without to taking a look at what consequences their politics really have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lzfan715 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I am pro-life, especially after a research paper I did. I really just disagree with how inhumane the process is. I'm fine with Plan B, because when Plan B is taken you aren't pregnant yet. What I was shocked by with this research is that for the first two weeks of a pregnancy, you aren't really pregnant yet. I think if a woman wishes to terminate a zygote (just the sperm and egg that hasn't caught into the lining yet) that's one thing, but once it catches the lining that is a baby and I don't agree with killing that. Medical reasons aside whether it be the baby or the mother, if a woman was raped and contracted AIDS and the baby would be born with it, then I understand terminating that. I just feel that abortions of convience are wrong, you should have been more careful and if for some reason you weren't precatious Plan B does exsist for a reason and people should use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 This argument is ridiculous. Truth is stranger than fiction. If only we lived in a perfect world where mothers were all saints. Without the life of the mother, the baby does not grow. I recommend orange juice for folic acid and try to keep her smiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 What I mean is that politicians can be populistic and hypocritical. We shouldn't just listen to what they say without to taking a look at what consequences their politics really have. This applies to liberal politicians as well, not just conservatives. And the only consequences of being anti-abortion is LIFE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 And the only consequences of being anti-abortion is LIFE! and a never-ending argument with those who disagree. I prefer to seek practical solutions that provide incentives for women to simply bypass abortion and seek a better life; such as improving prenatal care for more women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 This applies to liberal politicians as well, not just conservatives. And the only consequences of being anti-abortion is LIFE! Your first statement is true, but strict anti-abortion politics and ineffective healthcare often has the result that desperate people feel they have no choice but turning to criminal quacks to terminate pregnancies they can't deal with. And since anti-abortionists often oppose contraception and sex-education too, their politics also tend to increase the amount of unplanned pregnancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Your first statement is true, but strict anti-abortion politics and ineffective healthcare often has the result that desperate people feel they have no choice but turning to criminal quaks to terminate pregnancies they can't deal with. And since anti-abortionists often oppose contraception and sex-education too, their politics also tend to increase the amount of unplanned pregnancies. What does anti-abortion have to do with ineffective healthcare? Nothing. And yes, all abortionists are quacks, including legal ones. Who says anti-abortionists oppose contraception and sex education? One does not necessarily go with the other. If we had more of these we wouldn't need abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docron Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 It is still murder!!! The taking of a life. It is against all morality. No one has the right to "choose" to end another human being's life at any stage in that person's life from the moment of conception to natural death. Just because our laws permit abortion does not mean that is is morally OK to do so. The Nazi's laws permitted them to murder the Jews in the Holocaust. It was still morally wrong, even though their society made it "legal" to do so. Come off it already... we know it's not moral to kill human lifeforms. But what about the couple of broke hillbilly Jethros that pump out 7 kids when they can't afford to feed and clothe them? 7 more kids that nobody cares about that grow up starving in a broken home. That's not exactly moral either. Then these same 7 kids grow up with fu[ked up morals and make the exact same mistake until there's millions of these fu[ked up kids all over the planet. There are pros and cons to both sides that everyone fails to consider. The answer will not come in the form of a set law that governs every case - each instance is different and has to be dealt with differently.., with reason and with all things considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepyep Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Hi all, Let me ask you all this:you were all a fetus at one time.If you could have spoken,would you want to be aborted? KB(thought so) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 What does anti-abortion have to do with ineffective healthcare? Nothing. And yes, all abortionists are quacks, including legal ones. Who says anti-abortionists oppose contraception and sex education? One does not necessarily go with the other. If we had more of these we wouldn't need abortions. - I haven't said that anti-abortionists always oppose contraception and sex-education, but these ideas do go together quite often eg. because both draw a great part of their rhetorics from religious discourse and appeal to conservatives. - When health care has already failed (education, school nurses...) and a frightened teenager is pregnant, she often hides her distress from others if she knows she can't have an abortion. This can lead to serious problems! - When abortion is relatively free, the system can make sure that pregnancies will only be terminated if there is no other solution. A criminal quack simply isn't safe in any sense of the word, and likely only wants his/her money and doesn't ask questions or offer alternative solutions to patients problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 - I haven't said that anti-abortionists always oppose contraception and sex-education, but these ideas do go together quite often eg. because both draw a great part of their rhetorics from religious discourse and appeal to conservatives. - When health care has already failed (school nurses...) and a frightened teenager is pregnant, she often hides her distress from others if she knows she can't have an abortion. This can lead to serious problems! - When abortion is relatively free, the system can make sure that pregnancies will only be terminated if there is no other solution. A criminal quack simply isn't safe in any sense of the word, and likely only wants his/her money and doesn't ask questions or offer alternative solutions to patients problems. This describes all doctors who are performing "legal" abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 This describes all doctors who are performing "legal" abortions. No, for example in my country early stage abortion is practically free, but the women have to go through consultation first and get permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepyep Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Hi all, No one answered my question. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pip Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I am pro-choice for a few reasons but the main one is that I recently had to have a Curette (the same procedure as an abortion at 13-14 weeks the pregnancy was a molar pregnancy - look it up if you want to know more I can't explain it). In my situation there was no other choice. It hurt and it was hard and I still have to have regular blood and other tests to make sure I don't have cancer. AND BELIEVE ME there is no such thing as an abortion of convenience - it is never convenient it is always emotional and it is not a method of contraception - nobody wants to have one... That is a common misconception. But lots of people HAVE to have them - and for so many reasons - medical and otherwise... I think it is just so ironic and STUPID that someone who claims to be 'pro-life' can say 'people who have (or do) abortions should be shot'... um that is the most ironic and moronic thing I have ever heard! I mean FIX society before jumping on your so-called moral high horse and even then get a better understanding of the subject! but this particular case has nothing to do with the abortion debate really - other than to prove that if it was more readily available in proper hospitals none of this would have happened... Anyway when sex education (all education for that matter) is so badly taught abortions are going to be a fact of life... no matter if they are illegal or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Hi all, No one answered my question. KB You know my answer from my posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I am pro-choice for a few reasons but the main one is that I recently had to have a Curette (the same procedure as an abortion at 13-14 weeks the pregnancy was a molar pregnancy - look it up if you want to know more I can't explain it). In my situation there was no other choice. It hurt and it was hard and I still have to have regular blood and other tests to make sure I don't have cancer. AND BELIEVE ME there is no such thing as an abortion of convenience - it is never convenient it is always emotional and it is not a method of contraception - nobody wants to have one... That is a common misconception. But lots of people HAVE to have them - and for so many reasons - medical and otherwise... I think it is just so ironic and STUPID that someone who claims to be 'pro-life' can say 'people who have (or do) abortions should be shot'... um that is the most ironic and moronic thing I have ever heard! I mean FIX society before jumping on your so-called moral high horse and even then get a better understanding of the subject! but this particular case has nothing to do with the abortion debate really - other than to prove that if it was more readily available in proper hospitals none of this would have happened... Anyway when sex education (all education for that matter) is so badly taught abortions are going to be a fact of life... no matter if they are illegal or not! Sorry for your loss. But a molar pregnancy does not have a fetus, therefore there is no baby, no developing human. So a D&C was not an abortion. And I understand the subject perfectly. I am a doctor. And those who said that someone should be shot are mis-guided. That would be just as bad as committing the abortion. And no matter what one says, it is still murder. And I am trying to fix this sick society that thinks that it is OK to kill someone who has no rights in our society. The world would be a better place if more people took the moral high ground and stood up for what is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pip Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I know it isn't the same but what I am saying is that it is a horrible thing to have to go through so there is no such thing as an abortion of convenience. Some of the argument against abortion is to say that it is used as a regular contraceptive and what I am saying (having been through the same procedure) is that there is no way someone would want to do it regularly (i.e. to use it as their form of contraceptive). I think that the worst problem with abortion (or with women who are forced by the community to go on with pregnancies that they don't want) is the lack of support ALL ROUND - they get no support from society if they are down trodden and have a baby and they get no support from society if they have an abortion!! I mean you can't win! I mean look at that woman who just had 8 kids - if she had abortions instead she would still be getting the same shitty treatment as she is getting now after having them!! People are up her for HAVING the children! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I know it isn't the same but what I am saying is that it is a horrible thing to have to go through so there is no such thing as an abortion of convenience. Some of the argument against abortion is to say that it is used as a regular contraceptive and what I am saying (having been through the same procedure) is that there is no way someone would want to do it regularly (i.e. to use it as their form of contraceptive). I think that the worst problem with abortion (or with women who are forced by the community to go on with pregnancies that they don't want) is the lack of support ALL ROUND - they get no support from society if they are down trodden and have a baby and they get no support from society if they have an abortion!! I mean you can't win! I mean look at that woman who just had 8 kids - if she had abortions instead she would still be getting the same shitty treatment as she is getting now after having them!! People are up her for HAVING the children! Hi Pip, Have you ever heard of Project Rachel? It is a post-abortion healing program to support and help women who have had an abortion. It is a Catholic charity, designed to help women find peace. So there is support. My city has a teen pregnancy crisis center to help support girls who are pregnant. It is right down the road from a high school. They help the girls with their doctor appointments, give them maternity clothes, baby items, diapers, formula, etc... Alot of the girls who were helped become volunteers later to help others who are in the same situation that they were in. And the US government does support the children of the poor with Medicaid and welfare payments. So the more kids they have, the more money they get from the government (me being cynical here). So that lady that just had the 8 babies (and 6 more at home) will probably get a fortune from the US government to support them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzldoc Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Hi Pip, Have you ever heard of Project Rachel? It is a post-abortion healing program to support and help women who have had an abortion. It is a Catholic charity, designed to help women find peace. So there is support. My city has a teen pregnancy crisis center to help support girls who are pregnant. It is right down the road from a high school. They help the girls with their doctor appointments, give them maternity clothes, baby items, diapers, formula, etc... Alot of the girls who were helped become volunteers later to help others who are in the same situation that they were in. And the US government does support the children of the poor with Medicaid and welfare payments. So the more kids they have, the more money they get from the government (me being cynical here). So that lady that just had the 8 babies (and 6 more at home) will probably get a fortune from the US government to support them! Not to mention that it wasn't a freak of nature, she was artificially implanted with the embryos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pip Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Hi Pip, Have you ever heard of Project Rachel? It is a post-abortion healing program to support and help women who have had an abortion. It is a Catholic charity, designed to help women find peace. So there is support. My city has a teen pregnancy crisis center to help support girls who are pregnant. It is right down the road from a high school. They help the girls with their doctor appointments, give them maternity clothes, baby items, diapers, formula, etc... Alot of the girls who were helped become volunteers later to help others who are in the same situation that they were in. And the US government does support the children of the poor with Medicaid and welfare payments. So the more kids they have, the more money they get from the government (me being cynical here). So that lady that just had the 8 babies (and 6 more at home) will probably get a fortune from the US government to support them! A Catholic charity is probably designed to make them feel even worse about an abortion (not to mention the guilt it will instill in them). I once worked in a young women's support service and there is no way it is adequate enough for young women who are alone with a child (or pregnant and alone). Welfare isn't enough to put yourself thorough university while you have a child. and the woman who now has 15 babies will need every cent just to get by - even if she does live with her mum and dad. (do you think she will have as much money saved as you at the end of the day? - I mean you only have to work with one patent at a time - her full time job now is to look after 15 people!) I think if you REALLY want to be moral about this sort of thing firstly anyone who is 'pro life' should advocate safe sex practices - and take action to make sure it is fully available in schools and that the word 'abstinence' isn't a part of it (preaching abstinence is just being ignorant about reality). Secondly they should take in young women who are pregnant and who have small children and offer full support while the young woman gets a proper tertiary education to the point where her and her child will have a good quality of life. Thirdly they should look after that child with the young woman while she makes a start in her career AND if not she should be able to take the child to work with her until it is school aged (so that she doesn't have to pay for child care and so that she can successfully demand breast-feed to give that child the healthiest start in life) every pro-lifer should be active in this because we all know there are too many young women out there struggling as single young mums without a support network. the support networks you are talking about aren't good enough (obviously because of the state of the situation)... (hehe especially if they are giving out formula!! A doctor should know that breastmilk is the bestmilk!!) I am sure (since you are a doc) that you must agree with me when I say that an abortion is always a last choice and that women don't just use it as a common contraceptive - my first point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walesdad Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Surely with the ease of obtaining contraception today you would think that there would be no need for murder,sorry,abortion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepyep Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Hi all, Surely with the ease of obtaining contraception today you would think that there would be no need for murder,sorry,abortion? You underestimate human stupidity,er, urges,... KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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