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One thing about the geometry of the guitar and how the fingers have to move over the strings... It makes it so that the faster the playing, the more scale or pattern-based the solo tends to be and the less rhythmically varied. In other words, a "wanker" like Malmsteen always sounds like he's just kind of running scales or arpeggios up and down the fretboard in even 16th or 32nd notes. When you slow a solo down long enough to actually think about which note you're playing after the other, how much vibrato to apply, whether to bend it, slide it, mute it, pause, you really have a much wider sonic vocabulary to work with. Really, if you think about it, if a note only lasts a few ms then it doesn't make much of a lasting impression. So the more notes you cram into a bar the less meaning it tends to have. Speed is nice in short bursts and it does generate some excitement, but all speed-picking all the time is kind of like watching the South Park movie and getting desensitized to the swearing.

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I think a good way to look at -jimmy page's playing is to compare -walking into clarksdale to all of -robert plant's other records. Plant has some great technical players on those records and he wrote some great songs with the sound of those particular bands. If you listen to -walking into clarksdale, it doesnt sound like a zeppelin album, but it doesnt sound like any of -plant's records. Page played with that particular band, -plant's band basically, but molded himself very well with the sound and vibe of that band.

As for sloppy playing live in 77 and 80, you sorta have to realize the substance abuse issue. Some of the stuff was great, but sometimes his playing fell apart. Its all in the ear of the listener too, cause some folks think billie holidays last record, where she was broken up from drugs, was her best album, because of the emotion. I'm not romanticising drug use in any way, just talking about its affects on some musicians and music.

Just two simple points here, i'm not a guitar player. Everyone had some great comments on this thread.

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Malmsteem has not had nearly the influence Page has. You will find that a ton of people would rather listen to Page than Malmsteem. All of his stuff sounds the same. The only people, with few exceptions, that listen to Malmsteem are geeky guitar players and that is not a good thing. You know what you call a girl at a Malmsteem concert? A waitress

Yeah I don't know if you play guitar, and I'm assuming you do since you call yourself guitarsmith, and you frequent guitar player forums you know Page doesn't get as much respect from the guitar playing community as he does from the non-playing fans. No doubt YM draws a guitar playing crowd but I don't think its because he or they are geeky, I don't consider myself to be a geek and I like both Page and Malmsteen. I don't think all of YM's stuff sounds the same either, his hard rock stuff is different from his classical stuff and he also does some trippy acoustic stuff. Again I say it comes down to influences and I hear Yngwie's loud and clear and since that's his primary interest it makes sense to me that he doesn't sound like BB King ever. Though I don't doubt that someone with the command of the guitar he has could pull off a decent BB impression.

I love Yngwie's stuff like this, he has nice even vibrato and throws out some amazing trills in this piece. I have the DVD of that concert and all of it amazing, and he definitely isn't just playing fast the entire time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN5FAcd2sbM

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Malmsteem has not had nearly the influence Page has. You will find that a ton of people would rather listen to Page than Malmsteem. All of his stuff sounds the same. The only people, with few exceptions, that listen to Malmsteem are geeky guitar players and that is not a good thing. You know what you call a girl at a Malmsteem concert? A waitress

:lol:

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Jimmy always comes up close to or at the top in the guitar magazine best-of lists. It's only the minority of guitar snobs (like Van Halen) that want to dis him. While guitar players are more impressed with shredding than the layman, they still understand that the entire package of a musician is what's most important.

Edited by mos6507
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Jimmy always comes up close to or at the top in the guitar magazine best-of lists. It's only the minority of guitar snobs (like Van Halen) that want to dis him. While guitar players are more impressed with shredding than the layman, they still understand that the entire package of a musician is what's most important.

I am no more impressed by Malmsteen then Page. I just know that it takes more technical skill to play Malmsteen's music then Page's.

Also, I would like to add that those Best-Of lists in guitar magazines mean almost nothing.

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Yep, industry rag and guitar rag polls mean zilch. Proof of that is every time Zep doesn't place number one at "whatever" the majority of this forum has a heart attack.

However being able to play anothers music has little to nothing to do with being able to create. The genius of Jimmy is he did what he did and it sounded the way it did not that it was a display of technical prowess. It's always the simple things that make me want to slap my head and say "why didn't I think of that". Jimmy is like the inventor of the post it note, undeniably simple but oh so practical. He only plays what's necessary to get his point across. Many guitarists forget that it doesn't require great skill to make a massive musical statement. Overplaying is easy to do, playing the perfect part that sounds like it was handed down by God is tough to do.

Edited by danelectro
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Yep, industry rag and guitar rag polls mean zilch. Proof of that is every time Zep doesn't place number one at "whatever" the majority of this forum has a heart attack.

However being able to play anothers music has little to nothing to do with being able to create. The genius of Jimmy is he did what he did and it sounded the way it did not that it was a display of technical prowess. It's always the simple things that make me want to slap my head and say "why didn't I think of that". Jimmy is like the inventor of the post it note, undeniably simple but oh so practical. He only plays what's necessary to get his point across. Many guitarists forget that it doesn't require great skill to make a massive musical statement. Overplaying is easy to do, playing the perfect part that sounds like it was handed down by God is tough to do.

Exactly!!

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For me the trick to appreciating Jimmy Page is to not think of him as a guitarist. His forte' was coming up with great musical ideas and being able turn those ideas into songs. He just happened to use the guitar as his way of communicating those ideas. It really is two different things.

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Could someone plz explain me what a sloppy guitarist means?

I never understood that and I still don't. Does it mean that if you play simpler or complex slower riffs and solos you're sloppy? If that's the case I also prefer sloppy than technical like someone already mentioned.

I've been playing guitar for about 3 years now and I find guitarists like evh (i'm thinking of the song eruption here), vai or malmsteen extremely uninteresting and boring.

I guess I love to play and hear music rather than guitar. B)

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Could someone plz explain me what a sloppy guitarist means?

I never understood that and I still don't. Does it mean that if you play simpler or complex slower riffs and solos you're sloppy? If that's the case I also prefer sloppy than technical like someone already mentioned.

I've been playing guitar for about 3 years now and I find guitarists like evh (i'm thinking of the song eruption here), vai or malmsteen extremely uninteresting and boring.

I guess I love to play and hear music rather than guitar. B)

Sloppy means that there are mistakes in your playing. That doesn't necessarily mean it takes away from how good something sounds though.

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Jimmy always comes up close to or at the top in the guitar magazine best-of lists. It's only the minority of guitar snobs (like Van Halen) that want to dis him. While guitar players are more impressed with shredding than the layman, they still understand that the entire package of a musician is what's most important.

Van Halen dissed him when he was a young (and drunk) pup, but he's had plenty of good things to say about Jimmy since. And I don't rate EVH with guys like Malmsteen either. Eddie is a creative musician in terms of songwriting, riffs, and solos. I think Eddie is more a successor to Page than a member of the Malmsteen, Vai, etc., gang.

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I'm not a huge EVH fan but he did some very cool stuff, his rhythm work is rock solid, IMO that is where he was most creative. But yeah he's definitely not a shred guy even though much of what he did the shred crowd capitalized on.

I think of EVH as more the technically proficient player but to me lacks in any edge or emotion. But I've never been a fan of his so I'm coming from that perspective.

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For me the trick to appreciating Jimmy Page is to not think of him as a guitarist. His forte' was coming up with great musical ideas and being able turn those ideas into songs. He just happened to use the guitar as his way of communicating those ideas. It really is two different things.

Interesting comment and i agree, a complete artist and with the band of zeppelin he did what he did. I love the playing with the firm, the outrider live tour88 and the page/plant98, but with led zeppelin it was something very different, because of the whole band, they all elevated each others abilities.

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I think of EVH as more the technically proficient player but to me lacks in any edge or emotion. But I've never been a fan of his so I'm coming from that perspective.

I actually like EVH but the rest of VH makes me gag, especially the Hagar era. That party band vibe they had\have gets old quick for me. That's probably why I think Fair Warning was their best work, it has a darker edge.

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I'm the same way. It really doesn't matter to me how long you studied guitar or how fast you can play or how many fancy tricks you know to make the guitar do this that or the other. To me, what kind of emotion do you wrench out of the notes?

I'm more impressed with passion and artistry than technicality.

Agreed!! B)

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I actually like EVH but the rest of VH makes me gag, especially the Hagar era. That party band vibe they had\have gets old quick for me. That's probably why I think Fair Warning was their best work, it has a darker edge.

I saw the original VH in concert many years ago. Can't say I was impressed - a bit over the top for me. No doubt Eddie's a good guitar player but I just never grooved on their sound. What year was Fair Warning - what songs were on it that might have garnered radio play?

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I saw the original VH in concert many years ago. Can't say I was impressed - a bit over the top for me. No doubt Eddie's a good guitar player but I just never grooved on their sound. What year was Fair Warning - what songs were on it that might have garnered radio play?

It came out in '81, the biggest single was probably Unchained or So This Is Love? but I liked songs like Mean Street and Dirty Movies more. Honestly I'm not a fan. By the time I was old enough to get into VH I had already heard Hendrix and Sabbath so I wasn't all that into them. I bought Fair Warning in the early 80's and never had a desire to hear more so I stopped there, though I don't turn off stuff like Running With The Devil if it comes on the radio. It's just not my cup of tea, DLR and the crummy musicianship of Alex and the bass player kill it for me. I don't think it's terrible or anything I'm just not that into their "life's a party" vibe.

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I actually like EVH but the rest of VH makes me gag, especially the Hagar era. That party band vibe they had\have gets old quick for me. That's probably why I think Fair Warning was their best work, it has a darker edge.

I thought the records with -sammy hagar were good, liked the different vibe and sound they got.

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One thing about the geometry of the guitar and how the fingers have to move over the strings... It makes it so that the faster the playing, the more scale or pattern-based the solo tends to be and the less rhythmically varied. In other words, a "wanker" like Malmsteen always sounds like he's just kind of running scales or arpeggios up and down the fretboard in even 16th or 32nd notes. When you slow a solo down long enough to actually think about which note you're playing after the other, how much vibrato to apply, whether to bend it, slide it, mute it, pause, you really have a much wider sonic vocabulary to work with. Really, if you think about it, if a note only lasts a few ms then it doesn't make much of a lasting impression. So the more notes you cram into a bar the less meaning it tends to have. Speed is nice in short bursts and it does generate some excitement, but all speed-picking all the time is kind of like watching the South Park movie and getting desensitized to the swearing.

Excellent post. I totally agree. I am a big music fan with thousands of cd. I listen to Satriani, Vai, Malmsteen, Clapton, Page, Bettencourt, Van Halen, Vaughan, etc. So I agree with you 100%. I absolutely love Vai's and Satriani's work, I don't become as moved by their guitar playing as Page, Vaughan or Bettencourt. I am not saying anything bad about them, as I am fans or theirs, but to me, their music just doesn't move me like Page, Vaughan, or Bettencourt

Granted it is different as Page, Vaughan and Bettencourt (post Extreme) have a "complete" band and better song writing/lyrical composition.

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It came out in '81, the biggest single was probably Unchained or So This Is Love? but I liked songs like Mean Street and Dirty Movies more. Honestly I'm not a fan. By the time I was old enough to get into VH I had already heard Hendrix and Sabbath so I wasn't all that into them. I bought Fair Warning in the early 80's and never had a desire to hear more so I stopped there, though I don't turn off stuff like Running With The Devil if it comes on the radio. It's just not my cup of tea, DLR and the crummy musicianship of Alex and the bass player kill it for me. I don't think it's terrible or anything I'm just not that into their "life's a party" vibe.

Okay - I'm vaguely familiar with those songs. Yeah, I never took to them either though I suppose I prefer DLR over Sammy.

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I always felt the "showboating" Page and someone like Eddie VanHalen pulled were completely different in their own rights. Page came off as someone who wanted the audience to get off on every note he fretted or bent while Eddie came off as someone just showing the crowd what he could do and what they couldn't.

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