Cleveland 4/28/77

[Dirigible]

Still cranking out the awesome and yet humorous posts are we

Moi?

Thought I might bump into some old friends.

[Nutrocker]

Wow Sam, thanks for the info, I never would've guessed that, the recording is quite good, but being that close to the stage it could've been better, anyways the venue had not the greatest acoustics, but I think it might be based more on the equipment, also note that they only had 1 (or two?) cassettes, not the necessary to tape the entire show, thus the cuts between songs.

Damn...those are pretty good seats! Explains much about the quality of the recording, which isn't bad at all. Add to that, these guys happened to capture Zeppelin on a good night, which wasn't as much of a constant in '77. Led Zeppelin basically built their live act on their ability to blow the audience away within the first ten minutes and then keep up that pace for another three hours. In 1977, though, they took their time and could occasionally lose focus when they did. Again, already stated by Dirigible, you really had to be there- to actually see the lasers bouncing off the ceiling, etc makes you appreciate the performance that much more. You can hear the audience go nuts on the tapes, but it isn't quite the same.

(It is too bad in a way that the guys who recorded the 28th weren't on hand on the 27th as well...an audience recording of "Destroyer" could possibly end thirty years of debate about the merits of that show...)

As far as the '75 to '77 debate...your honor, as I've already stated (either here or elsewhere in this forum), I really only enjoy the early '75 shows, with "Wanton Song" and "How Many More Times". I don't listen to a lot of the fourty minute "Dazed And Confused"'s, to be honest...for a 1975 Led Zeppelin show, the January setlist just works better for me, as a fan- as I've also said before, it's too much like '73 part two later in the tour. Again, my opinion, m'lud! Anyway, for me as a fan, as far as what I like about Led Zeppelin's music, I just get more musical and listening enjoyment out of a 1977 show over 1975. Although some shows I do wish they stopped messing around and actually played "Tea For One" instead of "SIBLY"..."That's The Way" would have been a nice addition to the acoustic set...but that's just personal quibbling.

(Witness may step down..."

[bigstickbonzo]

For me it's Jimmy's wafer-thin guitar tone and the erraticness of his performance...he could go from brilliant to shit within the same song, let alone gig to gig.

That being said I'm sure the overall experience of BEING THERE was way better than listening to it immortalized for all time on a bootleg...

Agree on both accounts.

I've always agreed with the theory, I'd prefer a show with an off Plant/on Page,Jones,Bonzo than a show with an off Page and everyone else on. I think for as sloppy as 77 was, the fact that Plant sounded terrific makes the tour that much more of a missed opportunity. Had his voice been in that shape during the 75 tour, it certainly wouldn't be as panned as its come to be.

[Dirigible]

I don't object to the half-hour versions of D&C in 1973, but the song had had every possible drop of improvisation wrung from it though by summer '73. The hybrid version Pagey released on TSRTS album is the pinnacle, every musical path they ever took was fully explored and taken to its logical bombastic conclusion. The forty-minute versions of 1975 are okay, but the added-on portions extending the song beyond half an hour are only noodling and meandering---nothing of substance was added, no meat. When Page announced in 1977 he wasn't dazed and confused anymore, I remember thinking I wasn't either.

Speaking of '75, this is a page of redirect testimony I smuggled out of the courtroom where the '75 vs. '77 case is being heard, (the honourable Richard Cole presiding).

COUNSEL FOR 1975: "We have When the Levee Breaks, How Many More Times and Wanton Song."

COUNSEL FOR 1977: "Rarely performed and dropped like hot rocks too as soon as Dazed & Confused could rear its head again might I remind you."

COUNSEL FOR 1975: (snickering) "Might we remind you, Mr. Dirigible, there was no Dazed & Confused in '77. Pity."

COUNSEL FOR 1977: (pointing at crotch) "Pity? I got two words for ya: Achilles Last Stand, Nobody's Fault But Mine , Battle of Evermore, Black Country Woman . . ."

COUNSEL FOR 1975: (shouting) "More soundboards in '75 than '77! Better sounding bootlegs!"

COUNSEL FOR 1977: (standing, shouting) "Objection, your honor, redundant. The tour is on trial, not the bootlegs from it. I've already proved beyond a reasonable doubt that a quality recording and a fiery exciting performance are not mutually exclusive. Everyone knows you don't have to look any further than the Rolling Stones to know that."

COUNSEL For 1975: "Irrelevant, your honor! Counsel is using Johnny Cochran baffle-'em-with-bullshit tactics."

GALLERY: (laughter)

COURT: (pounding gavel) "Order! Order! And you punters in the back, put that out, this is a court of law not a bleedin' concert!"

[jimmy page66]

Moi?

Thought I might bump into some old friends.

Glad to see you still around here

[2bitnogoodjive]

I was too young to see them in 77, but I did buy this magazine at the time:

and remember thinking to myself, 'why is Page so thin?'

[jsj]

INTERJECTION FROM THE PUBLIC GALLERY:

yes, but mr dirigible, was it not the '77 tour that featured two of zeppelin's very worst recurring moments?

if i may expand, your honour

battle of evermore; a song that originally featured a lovely young female voice in great performance, replicated by an older man not known for his singing prowess at the best of times, who was - shall we say - already overtaxed by playing bass pedals and three necked guitars et al. the resulting regular embarrassment should be strongly considered in the case.

and, if may continue m'lord

jimmy's guitar solo a performance that only a mother could love. usually fifteen minutes or more of acute narcissisim, not long after a lengthy drum solo had already taken place at the scene of the crime. i ask the jury, just what was he thinking of, and surely this was his nadir?

i put it you that the band had a duty of care to the ticketbuying attendees of the '77 tour and reneged on their contractual obligation more often than not than they had already during the '75 tour. possibly...

[bigzepfan]

Here's Mine

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/d...le/DSC02917.jpg

Gives the song list and also says:

4 Record Deluxe Set

Series SE 77-300

Recorded April 28, 1977

Thanks to Gig, Gina and Cookie Crum

Smilin' Ears Records Inc. 70 Ave des Alpes, 8027 zurich/Switzerland Made in Switzerland 1977 smilin' Ears Records Inc.

Notice how zeppelin is misspelled. zepplin.

I have always thought this was one of the best boots I have. Very good quality and the Star Spangled Banner..well sort of anyway. then Achilles, then white summer, then kashmir...and that's the middle of the show. Unfortunately I only have it on LP and cassette and have not heard it in many years.

[ZepFanatic]

I think the thing about US 1975 is the sets were very uniform and heavy...no dynamics. No quiet songs (they only played SIBLY 3 times on the tour), a lot of LONG songs (No Quarter, Dazed, Moby Dick, long STH versions) and the set only had 12 songs! 13-14 if they did encores. I have been digging 1975 more and more the more I relisten to the boots, but it was still very very heavy and plodding. Earls Court was better since they added the acoustic section back. 1977 could have been phenomenal if it weren't for Page's erraticness and the Zeppelin machinery eating them alive from the inside out...

PS those pics from Cleveland 4/28/77 are awesome!

[Dirigible]

INTERJECTION FROM THE PUBLIC GALLERY:

yes, but mr dirigible, was it not the '77 tour that featured two of zeppelin's very worst recurring moments?

if i may expand, your honour

battle of evermore; a song that originally featured a lovely young female voice in great performance, replicated by an older man not known for his singing prowess at the best of times, who was - shall we say - already overtaxed by playing bass pedals and three necked guitars et al. the resulting regular embarrassment should be strongly considered in the case.

and, if may continue m'lord

jimmy's guitar solo a performance that only a mother could love. usually fifteen minutes or more of acute narcissisim, not long after a lengthy drum solo had already taken place at the scene of the crime. i ask the jury, just what was he thinking of, and surely this was his nadir?

i put it you that the band had a duty of care to the ticketbuying attendees of the '77 tour and reneged on their contractual obligation more often than not than they had already during the '75 tour. possibly...

jsj, those very aruguments were mounted by COUNSEL FOR 1975 early in the proceedings. Here's a partial transcript from COUNSEL FOR 1977's closing arguments referencing those concerns:

First, I'd like to point out that any concert soundboard recordings of Led Zeppelin were not intended for your ears or mine. They are an intellectual property and belong to the band. Consider it a privilege to get to hear them.

Second, note that a Led Zep concert was not only music but a show. That most lucrative of show business draws involved staging, lights, four alpha personalities and some blocking between Zep's front men and the light crew every bit as rehearsed as the music.

Page's guitar solo in 1977 was accompanied by a light show rivaling Pink Floyd's, so what may sound boring on a 32-year-old piece of tape was actually once a three-dimensional spectacle of light, sound and drama of movement. If two thirds of it got lost on its transition to tape, one just needs to understand why.

I laud Zep for their live Battle of Evermore where Jones sings Sandy Denny's parts. The Who or Stones would've hired someone to help out on the song, but not Led Zeppelin. Just the four of them managed onstage, always. Does Jones' voice suffer in comparison to Sandy's or when starkly juxtaposed with Plant's? Of course, but it didn't ruin the song for those watching it performed. I've grown so accustomed to it by now that the album version sounds like the aberration. My personal opinion, your honor, is fans who own 30 or more bootlegs probably seldom listen to the studio records anymore, rendering it a moot point.

[ZepFanatic]

I'm surprised about the dislike for Battle of Evermore in 1977...not perfect, no, but damn good and a real treat!

[bigstickbonzo]

While I haven't heard every single show from 77, the nearly 15 or so shows I have heard, I don't quite recall a Battle of Evermore that was "awful." Despite JPJ's stellar attempts.

[Dirigible]

There were expected high points in the set for me, Nobody's Fault, In My Time of Dying, Achilles, but Battle of Evermore was an unexpected high point. In the binoculars I watched Bonham sitting next to Page out front with a mallet and tambourine in one hand and a cigarette in the other waiting for his part to begin. He smoked the entire cigarette, flipped the butt away and started playing the tambourine into a mike at knee level. Greatness.

[jsj]

jsj, those very aruguments were mounted by COUNSEL FOR 1975 early in the proceedings. Here's a partial transcript from COUNSEL FOR 1977's closing arguments referencing those concerns:

First, I'd like to point out that any concert soundboard recordings of Led Zeppelin were not intended for your ears or mine. They are an intellectual property and belong to the band. Consider it a privilege to get to hear them.

Second, note that a Led Zep concert was not only music but a show. That most lucrative of show business draws involved staging, lights, four alpha personalities and some blocking between Zep's front men and the light crew every bit as rehearsed as the music.

Page's guitar solo in 1977 was accompanied by a light show rivaling Pink Floyd's, so what may sound boring on a 32-year-old piece of tape was actually once a three-dimensional spectacle of light, sound and drama of movement. If two thirds of it got lost on its transition to tape, one just needs to understand why.

I laud Zep for their live Battle of Evermore where Jones sings Sandy Denny's parts. The Who or Stones would've hired someone to help out on the song, but not Led Zeppelin. Just the four of them managed onstage, always. Does Jones' voice suffer in comparison to Sandy's or when starkly juxtaposed with Plant's? Of course, but it didn't ruin the song for those watching it performed. I've grown so accustomed to it by now that the album version sounds like the aberration. My personal opinion, your honor, is fans who own 30 or more bootlegs probably seldom listen to the studio records anymore, rendering it a moot point.

my apologies for not paying enough attention to an earlier defense statement already produced to the court.

a fair point raised; to judge something on only one part of a three tiered performance may be less incriminating, though i feel overall the element of fun was missing from the 77 tour and it was more of a presented 'show' and less about being a functioning band. and i preferred the black suit to the white suit, but thats another matter... i'll get my coat

[Dirigible]

my apologies for not paying enough attention to an earlier defense statement already produced to the court.

a fair point raised; to judge something on only one part of a three tiered performance may be less incriminating, though i feel overall the element of fun was missing from the 77 tour and it was more of a presented 'show' and less about being a functioning band. and i preferred the black suit to the white suit, but thats another matter... i'll get my coat

The courts are a twisty winding labyrinth of rules and legalese, but don't apologize, only part of the proceedings have been made public. Crikey, jsj, your participation and interest is very much appreciated, and if there are other aspects of the case (it wasn't a slam dunk, lots of subjective evidence) you have questions about, ask. I'll try to dig up something pertinent. We're never impertinent here, mate. At least that old barrister Dirigible isn't.

[LedZep4Ever]

As a “3D” judge/juror of the 1977 tour, here are some of my perspectives.

I can’t think of many bands I saw in the mid to late 70’s that played for 3 straight hours. Heck, or even today.

I can’t remember seeing any band, prior to 1977 that even used laser lights. As this was new technology for concerts during this era.

My high school sweetheart got me “Presence” for my 16th birthday the year before, and to be honest I was pleased to hear my two favorite songs (Achilles Last Stand & Nobody’s Fault But Mine) from that album live.

Along with hearing and seeing them play my all-time favorite song since the age of 14, Kashmir.

The acoustic set was a wonderful treat.

As far as the “element of fun was missing from the 77 tour?”

I did not see this in my three short hours I spent with them and 18,000 plus others at Riverfront Coliseum, that evening in April.

They and we all seem to have a great time!!!

As the old saying goes, “I guess you just had to have been there!!!” :-)

If I only knew now what I didn’t know then, I would have traveled the 140 miles north and scalped tickets for the April 27th & 28th.

Also, wish I had been smart enough to bring a tape recorder into the April 20, Cincinnati show. I like listening to what we have available, but wish there were something comparable to the Cleveland, April 27th soundboard and the excellent audience recording from April 28th show.

However when I listen to any of the 1977 shows, I am able to close my eyes and be transported back in time and to visualize what I witnessed first hand all over again…

[JimmyPageZoSo56]

I can’t think of many bands I saw in the mid to late 70’s that played for 3 straight hours. Heck, or even today.

Not many bands today can because they always have warm-up groups and joint tours.

[Dirigible]

Working under 120 to 140 degree spotlights can't be easy no matter how much energy is emanating from the audience. From 1973 onward when Zeppelin toured with a big light show, Page looked like he had a bucket of water poured over his head by the end of a concert.

[ZepFanatic]

No kidding...look at him at Knebworth...all those lights AND the hot August nights in England!!

[One Symbol]

As a “3D” judge/juror of the 1977 tour, here are some of my perspectives.

I can’t think of many bands I saw in the mid to late 70’s that played for 3 straight hours. Heck, or even today.

That's not strictly true though, is it?

The 77' tour was peppered with lengthy solos spots as you know, significantly reducing the actual stage time that all four appeared on stage together.

As much as I enjoy some of the '77 gigs, they were exercises in over-indulgence, in more ways than one.

[ZepFanatic]

That's not strictly true though, is it?

The 77' tour was peppered with lengthy solos spots as you know, significantly reducing the actual stage time that all four appeared on stage together.

As much as I enjoy some of the '77 gigs, they were exercises in over-indulgence, in more ways than one.

Absolutely. 30 min of NQ, 30 min of MB, 15-30 min of Jimmy's guitar wanking solo...the only tour that can compare to self-indulgence is 1975 with 45 min of D&C, 30 min of NQ, and 30 min of MB (especially putting MD and D&C back-to-back at the end of the set...not the best in pacing!)

[snapper]

Absolutely. 30 min of NQ, 30 min of MB, 15-30 min of Jimmy's guitar wanking solo...the only tour that can compare to self-indulgence is 1975 with 45 min of D&C, 30 min of NQ, and 30 min of MB (especially putting MD and D&C back-to-back at the end of the set...not the best in pacing!)

If you had been at the actual show as opposed to listening to bootleg recordings of it 30 years later, I have a feeling you wouldn't have been too concerned with "the pacing"

of their concert.

That's because you would have been too busy having your ass kicked by Led Zeppelin

for real.

[One Symbol]

If you had been at the actual show as opposed to listening to bootleg recordings of it 30 years later, I have a feeling you wouldn't have been too concerned with "the pacing"

of their concert.

That's because you would have been too busy having your ass kicked by Led Zeppelin

for real.

Sure, it's easier to get caught up in it when you're there. However, I'm quite sure that both Over The Top & Page's guitar solo spots at the very least had a fair few punters running for the concession stands!

[ZepFanatic]

If you had been at the actual show as opposed to listening to bootleg recordings of it 30 years later, I have a feeling you wouldn't have been too concerned with "the pacing"

of their concert.

That's because you would have been too busy having your ass kicked by Led Zeppelin

for real.

I'm not saying *I* didn't like it, but I can see how it could get boring for a lot of people...and there are QUITE A FEW AUD boots where you can hear people in the crowd make comments about how long the solo trips were and to get on with a real song...

[snapper]

I'm not saying *I* didn't like it, but I can see how it could get boring for a lot of people...and there are QUITE A FEW AUD boots where you can hear people in the crowd make comments about how long the solo trips were and to get on with a real song...

In 77' there were 3 and a half hour shows with 3 solo spots. Moby Dick, which gave the rest of the guys roughly a 25 minute break and the intro to Kashmir and the bow/noise solo before Achillies Last Stand which seems to me to have been placed to specifically give Plant a breather before two very long songs which have heavy duty vocals throughout. They obviously wanted to play as long as possible and give the people their moneys worth, but they couldn't have pulled it off without giving Plant a fair amount of down time.

Plus, White Summer and the Noise Solo gave Bonham a little well deserved break too.

My point is, they're pacing of the set wasn't just about the audience, but also about themselves and their own physical limits.