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The Song Remains The Same (EDITS)?


Ampzilla

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First off, let me say that I am a huge fan of the original album - in fact, it's one of my favorite albums of all time. I've listened to it hundreds of times, whereas I've "only" seen the movie perhaps a dozen times. I also have perhaps a half-dozen LZ bootleg concerts on record, and I must disagree with those, including members of the band, who claim that this was an average concert. The versions of No Quarter, The Song Remains the Same, and Dazed and Confused on the album are perhaps the best that I've heard of them in concert, this Stairway is the definitive version, and the solo at the end of Celebration Day on the original album is by far the best version of this song ever. Since I Been Loving You from the movie and this new album is also perhaps the best version of this song that they've recorded. Granted, Heartbreaker, The Ocean, and especially Misty Mountain Hop are subpar and the other songs are merely average (although Whole Lotta Love does have a few very special moments), but still this would have to rate among their better concerts.

The things I like about this new issue are:

1. It includes the 2.5 songs (Black Dog, Since I've Been Loving You, and parts of Heartbreaker) that were included in the movie but not on the album. As I mentioned above, the second of these should never have been omitted from the original album in the first place.

2. It includes another 3.5 songs (The Ocean, Misty Mountain Hop, Over The Hills And Far Away, the rest of Heartbreaker) that didn't appear either on the album or in the movie. Of these Over The Hills in particular is very good, although the band sounds flat on the others. The Ocean has a lot of energy, but I've heard much better versions on other bootlegs.

3. The songs have been remixed, making the bass work stand out more in particular. More jarring is how different Plant's vocals sound, deeper, with more texture, especially right away on Rock And Roll. It makes you realize how muddy the original record was - it's clearly the same version of the song, but sounds radically different.

4. Some of Bonham's great whaling at the end of songs that appeared in the movie but not the album, such at the end of Dazed, I think, are here. So is the entire violin bow part that was partially edited on the album.

But now here's the bad news: Instead of combining the new songs with a remastered version of the original album, they've gone back and released the audio from the film, which as any real fan knows is different from the album. Many pieces of the music (especially mistakes - my favorite is when Jones gently chides Bonzo for forgetting a beat) were cut when the album was made, but conversely many small pieces that appear on the album were inexplicably cut from the movie. Moreover, the cuts in the movie are much more obvious: Was there something wrong with the video footage that necessitated these parts being removed? The most egregious jumps occur in the funky part of Whole Lotta Love before the theremin solo, Dazed and Confused between the early vocal parts and the violin bow solo (where the movie also includes some parts not on the album instead), and in a couple of places during the No Quarter guitar solo, which really butchers one of Page's finest solos ever. Whenever I've watched the movie these have always annoyed me - now they irritate me on the album, too. Why couldn't Page have kept the parts that were cut out of both sources?

But it doesn't stop there. A lot of Plant's yelps are missing, such as his "Dig It! Dig It!" during one part of The Song Remains The Same. In fact so many of these are missing, it makes one wonder, Did Page add them from a different recording for the original album? Conversely, some of the vocals that Page wisely edited for the original album ("Hangman!") are back. The gong hits, such as in No Quarter, have been muted. Some echo effects with the vocals and guitars near the end of Dazed have been removed, whereas others have been added, such as the "Talk!" near the end of The Rain Song. And don't get me started on what they've done to Moby Dick with those flange effects. This wasn't in the original movie or album and makes the song almost unlistenable. In fact, the drum solo is so chopped up, I can't recognize it at all.

The introductions to the songs have been rearranged to conform to the movie. "I think this is a song of hope" may be the most recognizable difference, but how could Plant introduce TSRTS as just "This is called the Song Remains The Same" instead of "In between the last time we came and this time we managed to get an album out called 'Houses of the Holy' and...we decided that this would be an apt title for a thing that's called 'The Song Remains The Same'," where he mentions that they're filming? At least now we can hear "John Bonham! John Bonham! John Bonham!"

Probably the most disappointing change is the fact that they've used a different version of (at least the end of) Celebration Day from the one on the original album. Granted, it wasn't in the movie, and for all I know maybe the original album combined versions from different concerts, but it was so good, everytime I listen to this new album I immediately want to play the old one just to hear this song.

Page said that he wanted this new CD to match the movie, but I have to ask, Why? So that we can play both at the same time? The original record benefitted from the fact that Page could edit the concert, combining the best parts from several different performances and cutting some mistakes, as well as including parts that perhaps couldn't be included in the movie because the film was missing or damaged. Why couldn't he have stuck with these sensible decisions? I can only hope that some day another version will be released that includes the entire audio of everything that they have from the MSG shows. I know I'd buy it.

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I wish I could just get the old album version exactly the same, only better quality. No edits, no changes.

Someone must have the original recordings of these nights bootlegged and unchanged. that would be really interesting to check out.

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Anyone who appreciates the film, the album or both should become highly familiar with the research Eddie Edwards has done pertaining to these releases. Eddie has produced what is unquestionably the definitive study of this topic:

http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/

That's a pretty amazing site. He breaks everything down in such detail. Also does the same with the BBC and HTWWW too. Great stuff!

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His great example makes microscopic Led Zeppelin nitpicking O.K. and not weird.

He does a good job with it and just gets down to business of what was done to these releases. It's pretty amazing and really shows how much of a perfectionist Jimmy is.

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Makes me wonder how live a live album really is !! Jimmy did a shitty job if you ask me, I like the added songs but thats it. The mix is to heavy for me also. HTWWW isn't any better either. Way to bass heavy for live Zeppelin. BBC & the original SRTS are real Zeppelin live discs.

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Makes me wonder how live a live album really is !! Jimmy did a shitty job if you ask me, I like the added songs but thats it. The mix is to heavy for me also. HTWWW isn't any better either. Way to bass heavy for live Zeppelin. BBC & the original SRTS are real Zeppelin live discs.

HTWWW is a fantastic album, when Zeppelin were playing at their very best. There are a few performances that may be a bit better, but in general it would be tough to top the shows of Long Beach and L.A.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're way off base here. The album is bass heavy because JPJ adds so much to their live performances and has always played a heavy bass. It's what makes Zeppelin so great and unique. Every song on these discs, knock you down and make you wish you were there. TSRTS is uneven and they weren't playing up to their ability at those shows. Although The Ocean, NQ and SIBLY are definite highlights for me. HTWWW has been noted by fans and music critics alike as one of the best live releases ever by any artist, so I don't know how you can think it's an inferior performance just because you feel there's too much bass. Everyone from Robert, Jimmy JPJ and Bonzo are at their very best. You may need to revisit to accept it!

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HTWWW is a fantastic album, when Zeppelin were playing at their very best. There are a few performances that may be a bit better, but in general it would be tough to top the shows of Long Beach and L.A.

Your entitled to your opinion, but your way off base here. It's bass heavy because of JPJ adding so much to their live performances and has always played a heavy bass. It's what helps to make so great and unique. Every song on these discs, knock you down and make you wish you were there. TSRTS is uneven and they weren't playing up to their ability at those shows. Although The Ocean, NQ and SIBLY are definite highlights for me. HTWWW has been noted by fans and music critics as one of the best live releases ever, so I don't know how you can think it's an inferior performance just because you feel there's too much bass. Everyone from Robert, Jimmy JPJ and Bonzo are at their best. You may need to revisit to accept it!

I don't find the mix a problem at all on HTWWW. I think it sounds great!

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I don't find the mix a problem at all on HTWWW. I think it sounds great!

I'm just saying he plays a great bass. It's more predominant than other bands. It adds to the performance of these shows in such a positive way. It's what makes him so good and why Zeppelin have been labeled by some as being the heaviest band ever. But as a compliment.

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Anyone who appreciates the film, the album or both should become highly familiar with the research Eddie Edwards has done pertaining to these releases. Eddie has produced what is unquestionably the definitive study of this topic:

http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/

Yeah that's a great site. I also have the Garden Tapes boot, which is all 3 NY shows in their unaltered states...I listen to those WAY more than I ever listen to the TSRTS album (which is never!)

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Yes the Garden Tapes is a great resource. I have hopes to go into such detail about every live No Quarter (The Evolution of No Quarter).

As far as HTWWW vs TSRTS I actually prefer TSRTS for a few reason, probably first because it has the best SIBLY and The Ocean, both of which I cant get enough of. Also has No Quarter. And I think TSRTS remastered version is the best sound quality/mix that exists of Zeppelin.

And for TSRTS (or other releases) edits, I do not mind unless they take out a large portion. Its just touching them up, as if they were a picture. I think Jimmy is saying, this is what it was supposed to sound like. But songs that have large cuts like No Quarter I will just listen to the original version.

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Yes the Garden Tapes is a great resource. I have hopes to go into such detail about every live No Quarter (The Evolution of No Quarter).

As far as HTWWW vs TSRTS I actually prefer TSRTS for a few reason, probably first because it has the best SIBLY and The Ocean, both of which I cant get enough of. Also has No Quarter. And I think TSRTS remastered version is the best sound quality/mix that exists of Zeppelin.

And for TSRTS (or other releases) edits, I do not mind unless they take out a large portion. Its just touching them up, as if they were a picture. I think Jimmy is saying, this is what it was supposed to sound like. But songs that have large cuts like No Quarter I will just listen to the original version.

They were playing much better as a band in the summer of 1972 vs. 1973. TSRTS version of The Ocean is probably the best ever and SIBLY is very good but is even better on HTWWW, but the best versions for me come from the 1971 tour, with my favorite version from Berkeley Community Theatre on 14th September. It would be hard to top that version.

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I had heard of the "infamous Garden Tapes" but never read them until you posted the link Steve. Quite impressive indeed. I was alittle shocked and disappointed with all the editing done by Page, but I have to agree with him, the final product speaks for itself.

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HTWWW is a fantastic album, when Zeppelin were playing at their very best. There are a few performances that may be a bit better, but in general it would be tough to top the shows of Long Beach and L.A.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're way off base here. The album is bass heavy because JPJ adds so much to their live performances and has always played a heavy bass. It's what makes Zeppelin so great and unique. Every song on these discs, knock you down and make you wish you were there. TSRTS is uneven and they weren't playing up to their ability at those shows. Although The Ocean, NQ and SIBLY are definite highlights for me. HTWWW has been noted by fans and music critics alike as one of the best live releases ever by any artist, so I don't know how you can think it's an inferior performance just because you feel there's too much bass. Everyone from Robert, Jimmy JPJ and Bonzo are at their very best. You may need to revisit to accept it!

Don't get me wrong I still enjoy it, the band is great on it, but I don't like the way it is bass heavy. It take's away the smothness that I think they had. Jonesy is the best ever if you ask me, that's not the problem. The problem I have when I listen is I think they really made the bass stand out and I think the original TSRTS is probably more what the band sounded like live and that's what I want to hear. Not some guy's opinion on what he thinks it could have sounded like. WTWWW is a great disc but I'm so one tracked minded on how the band sounded live after listening to the original version of TSRTS for 30 years. The DVD mix sound's ok to me for some reason. And I think a dvd mix is alway's a little different for some reason. I read something on Joe Satriani were he said that. Not sure why.

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I AGREE. I`M FROM BRASIL.

hi. i`ve listened very bootlegs (on CD and on DVD)... but, about "the song remains the same", i agree... i have the LP (original 1976), the VHS version and the DVD first edition... i`ve the new edition too and it`s easy to feel too many changes ! on "stairway to heaven", at the vocals (ahahahah)... (the same at "rock and roll"... here are modificatins on chorus, with bass and drums and guitar together with the vocals...). we can too listen "claps and ovation of fans" on "black dog"... "Moby Dick" is absolutely another track! amazing, but absolutely strange of the original track (and i`d never listened something like that... it`s the same music? yeah...). on DVD "Since I`ve been lovi`you" has different vocals part, but that was not on original DVD/CD and here it`s sound good. The song remains the same, at original track alive, we`ve had plant`s voice bad at the final of the verse "the song remais... the same"... Now, they edit the final and we can here voice`s plant without mistake... rain song and whole lotta love have no modification. dazed and confused (full version, very, very good at DVD, with Bonham and Jones showing us how good they were!!!! but we lost a little of plant`s "ahahahahah" in the middle... that kind of conversation betwen the Gibson played by Page and the throat of plant that we all like... No Quarter, a different version... THe news tracks (black dog, ocean, what is and what should never be and celebration day at CD are wonderful...).

really that are edits... but why? Plant still is whithout a toot at the image of "rock and roll"...why they didn`t edited that image?

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