Mercurious
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Posts posted by Mercurious
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9 hours ago, IpMan said:
Can't speak about that Manson groupie Anger but Page, wow, looks like he could live another 30 years while most of his contemporaries barring Jagger look like shit with few exceptions. Sure, Richards & Tyler survived but both look like the Crypt Keeper Brother & Sister squad.
Hey, Bobby was Kenneth Anger's Lucifer well before Bobby became Manson's pal. Biggest mistake Bobby Beausoleil ever made was ditching Kenneth Anger, and no doubt that goes through his head every day he's looking at another lousy tray of San Quentin cuisine. Just sayin'.
Great to hear that Jimmy's counter-suing over this frivolous lawsuit. The damage to his reputation through all this was immense, and there's so much bullshit out in the world now because of it, right down to the "Stairway" written at Bron-yr-aur misinformation that all started in Malofiy's ridiculously flawed brief. It was just a big ball of shit that kept spinning around in the web-o-sphere for months, most of it aimed at the guitar player who is the greatest composer of his generation.
So things like this aren't supposed to happen - some judge at some point in the legal system usually puts a stop to frivolous lawsuits brought by ethically vacant lawyers, but not in this case. Don't know how successful the counter-suit might be, but Jimmy should make every effort in the aftermath to at least get some headlines spinning his way.
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7 hours ago, Strider said:
Karmic retribution. You don't mess with Jimmy Page.
Consider that Jimmy is walking around looking healthy as ever, while Kenneth Anger is a broken down gnome who smells like piss and falls asleep over his breakfast.
I was really surprised recently to find out that Kenneth Anger is still a live. 89 years old.
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Yuck. Jason can do better, much much better. Cripes, eye need a drummer. Noise band - heavy psyche/skronk, experimental. Jason, if you're out there, the gig is yours if you want it.
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4 minutes ago, juxtiphi said:
Yes, The technicality in question is the fact that Stairway and Taurus are not the same.
It's so pathetic. four $@% notes that aren't played the same way, don't sound very similar and go off in different directions. This whole thing is an unholy farce, except maybe for this great discussion we've been having. I just re-read through, and this thread has been quite a good read. Thank you everyone!!
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2 minutes ago, Tea41 said:
That would amount to 26 bucks total.
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1 hour ago, DogsoverLava said:
The LA times is little more than a rag - but even if we take these statements as true fact (which I do) - I'm not seeing deception or lies. Why are some of you concluding that Zeppelin lied on the stand? I find it reasonable that access was possible - I find it "possible" the song was heard in some way shape or form -- in no way do I find that probable, nor do I find Zep's claims to the contrary necessarily untruthful and their claims of not remembering in any way a practice of deception.
Well, the jury also ruled that access was possible, then asked to hear the music again, and ruled that Page didn't steal anything from Spirit. Everyone arrived at the same place, except maybe the Wolfe trust and their money-grubbing, attention seeking lawyer.
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41 minutes ago, DogsoverLava said:
I suspect Jimmy owns pretty much every record from the era as a collector and that most of them were sent to him gratis by record companies. That the jury didn't "buy" some of Zeppelin's testimony is conjecture yes? I'm still trying to get a sense of what are agreed on facts or undisputed or proven facts.
The details of the jury ruling were reported as the facts at hand by the LA TImes, the newspaper of record involved here. As it was the news story that went out on the the LA Times/NY Times wire service (not an opinion piece or editorial, not something appearing in Rolling Stone or on TV) there should not have been conjecture in the reported facts of the verdict.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-led-zeppelin-copyright-20160623-snap-story.html
And - this from our favorite reporter at the trial:
Jimmy Page has testified that he owns 4329 records and 5882 CDs.
Page says on the stand that he has said before that he likes the band Spirit but "I mean I've liked a lot of bands to be honest with you." -
2 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:
I'm still very confused why members here insist that Page and Plant's denial of or recollection of even knowing or remembering much of anything about Spirit is somehow selective on their part or strategic with respect to this case.
Just playing Devil's Advocate, here - Some points to why members are sticky about Page and Plant's recollections:
1) The jury "didn't buy" Led Zep's arguments that they did not have access, according to LA Times.
2) In an interview from the early years, Page was quoted talking about how much he liked Spirit.
3) Jimmy doesn't just own the debut Spirit, but 3 or 4 other spirit records. No proof was submitted as to when he obtained the records, though, as you mentioned.
But none of that is relevant. A jury of eight has decided that "Taurus" isn't similar to "Stairway", and prior to that the judge ruled that those common notes could not be the basis of copyright infringement. "Taurus" is an insignificant and incomplete piece of album filler, nothing more. Page may have heard it some point or other, he can't remember, but he certainly didn't steal it.
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55 minutes ago, KellyGirl said:
Jimbert lie?!
I don't buy it hehe.
Of course the jury believes they had access. *quietly under every biased Zep fan's breath we
believe it too* That still doesn't prove copyright infringement.I really don't think he's being less than truthful about the music. However, he is a genius in so many respects and I suspect he knows where every book and record he owns came from, including the Spirit record, which he probably listened to at some point, but maybe not.
"Taurus" just isn't a very interesting piece (it's so incomplete), and there was nothing to learn from "Fresh Garbage", based on what he's playing in those live shows. When he's quoting Jeff Beck in the "Bolero" section of HMMT, he doesn't even play the lick the same way Beck does. Jimmy can't help but be original, it seems to me, which is one reason he's so fascinating. And in the end, isn't this was what burns the Wolfe trust? What Jimmy Page plays throughout the history of Zep just doesn't sound like it owes much of anything to any music that came before. And cheers to that -
6 hours ago, KellyGirl said:
I also want to touch on the jury stating Jimbert had access to hear Taurus doesn't technically
mean the jury believes they indeed heard it. It just means they believe prior to writing
Stairway To Heaven there was very real chance they had opportunity to hear it - as did anyone
else who was alive, owned a record player in the late 1960s and had functioning eardrums.Nahh, they didn't believe him (LA Times reported that) yet still ruled that the music he wrote was untouchable. We all know he had access -- he owns five Spirit records and the "Fresh Garbage" connection sealed it. But these eight beautiful people on the jury decided that Jimmy Page's work was unique and wonderful and that no one in their right mind should have any claim on it. Music won yesterday, and one can only hope that the world will be better because of it. We cannot underestimate the importance of the precedence set yesterday with this decision. Amazing really, how much this means for all musicians moving forward.
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LA Times report: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-led-zeppelin-copyright-20160623-snap-story.html
'Jurors rejected the claim of infringement. But they believed the plaintiffs’ argument that the estate of Wolfe, a.k.a. Randy California, was the rightful holder of the copyright on “Taurus,” a claim that Zeppelin’s team disputed.
They also did not buy the defense team’s argument that Page and Plant had not had reasonable opportunity to have heard “Taurus” before they wrote “Stairway to Heaven.”
Michael Skidmore, a trustee of Wolfe’s estate who brought the case, said they lost on the issue of the “extrinsic test” of similarity: whether the two musical compositions share enough of the same elements for one song to be judged “substantially similar” to another.'
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Another ugly article in Rolling Stone, including a post to some damning vid on youtube, much of it ill-informed BS. Given the length of the article, much of it had to be written before the verdict, which does not seem to be the one they expected. (I say "they" because it's now a different writer than Matt Diehl on the case.) It goes quickly from a straight news tone up top to a lengthy retrying of the case from the plaintiff's perspective. - Where is David Fricke when we need him?
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37 minutes ago, GeorgeC said:
One new controversy arising from the trial is the press's insistence that the "myth" of STH being written at Bron-yr-aur has been "exploded." But I'm wondering, who's ever said that the song was completely written by Page and Plant in Wales? My understanding is that Page brought the earliest run-throughs of the song from Wales to Headley Grange, where it was more fully arranged with Jones and Bonham, and that the final recording was perfected at Island Studios in London, where Plant added his complete set of lyrics. So what's this "myth" of the work being created, music and words all, in the Welsh countryside?
Yeah that was really confusing, and the bad writing in Rolling Stone by Matt Diehl mashed that up even further. I can kinda remember thinking long ago that it might have been started or inspired at Bron-Yr-Aur, but that was just romantic imagery on my part -- I don't remember ever reading that, not even from Stephen Davis. "There's a feeling I get when I look to the west, and my spirit is crying for leaving" was said by Plant to be inspired by Wales, but the fact that Page brought the music in and introduced it to the band at Headley Grange was made pretty clear in the many books about Led Zep and Page. It goes hand in hand with the legend of Plant's "automatic writing" experience while Page was teaching the arrangement to Jones -- so how did the story get moved from Headley Grange to Wales?
Information, it seems, just isn't what it used to be, not in today's media culture.
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Eggzellent!!!
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15 minutes ago, mstork said:
if you told me that Page had actually listened to Taurus and was inspired by it that would not effect my opinion that Randy C's estate should not get one thin dime out of this, let alone a writing credit. If they win Page would have to live another 100 years to sue all of the artists who were inspired by Zeppelin songs when writing their own music.
I agree 100%. To think otherwise is to say that a formula 1 race car and a beat up Pinto are one and the same because they both contain a certain ignition technology. Jake Holmes is the only person who ever had a reasonable claim against Jimmy Page, and even Holmes agreed that his claim is extremely limited from an artistic perspective.
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12 hours ago, Strider said:
Fresh Garbage" is a red herring used by the plaintiffs to mislead the jury. There is no basis in fact that even if Jones and Page heard "Fresh Garbage" before they played the riff in concert, that means they also heard "Taurus".
Both Jones and Page testified they did not own the first "Spirit" album at that time. "Fresh Garbage" was played on the radio back then, while "Taurus" was not...at least, I never heard it.
Jones said it was a riff he heard somewhere and liked, so the odds are that Jones, and maybe even Page, were in a pub or a club and "Fresh Garbage" was played over the radio or jukebox and that's where they heard the riff.
Again...no evidence or proof that any of the band heard Taurus before writing "Stairway to Heaven".
Easy dismissal of the case. IF the jury is halfway sentient.
Wait a minute. You're the poster that suggested I was being naive last week for expressing similar doubts about any connection between "Fresh Garbage" and "Taurus". I've never thought this suit was anything but frivolous and should have been tossed by Klausner before this massive waste of time of a trial, but we all know the jury is wondering why Page can't remember ever saying how much he liked Spirit, or why in the world he owns four or five Spirit records. "Fresh Garbage" is not "Taurus", but it's no a red herring. if we're wondering what there is for the jury to talk about, this question of access via "Fresh Garbage" is certainly it -- but I'm far too biased in favor of Jimmy Page to be a proper devil's advocate.
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3 minutes ago, Balthazor said:
Oh I see what you're saying, I was reading it exactly backwards, that proximity and similarity were already "proven" and the decision left hinges on access. But you're saying the exact opposite. Reading comprehension fail.
My bad, I should have been a little less fuzzy
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Just now, Balthazor said:
I disagree. While I'm not sure exactly what is meant by proximity, I don't think similarity has been proven, aside from proving that it's similar to a common musical sequence which can't be copyrighted. Whether or not they heard Taurus, whether or not they got the idea from Taurus, shouldn't be as important as whether or not that bit of music can even be copyrighted in the first place.
Invert the meaning, or flip it -- Proximity was the whole "they played with us, we toured US together, they went to our shows," that sort of thing. They didn't even establish that they were ever in the same room together in Denver in 1968, so ... proximity is out. Similarity is out, too, because the judge ruled that those notes can't be copyrighted. So there were three issues at start -- two of those are out, leaving only the access issue, which Led Zep labelled "speculative" in the motion to dismiss filed on Monday.
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43 minutes ago, KellyGirl said:
Court is over and the jury is still deliberating? I have mixed feelings of that being good and
bad for Zeppelin. The bad: What is there to deliberate?Same thing we've been discussing since last week - access via their use of the killer "Fresh Garbage" baseline in the "As Long As I Have You" medley. A lengthy deliberation is definitely not good for Led Zep. There were three issues when the trial started, right? Proximity, Access and Similarity. Now there is only one -- Access, but one would have to make a speculative leap to get there because "Fresh Garbage", while on the same side of the record as "Taurus", is not "Taurus". From a jury perspective I think it's worth discussing for at least a little while before make a decision, yes? -- though after an hour or so, I can't imagine that being good for Zep.
On another note: Doesn't the name Malofiy mean "bad seed" or "bad spirit" or something like that?
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18 minutes ago, Walter said:
Don't know if anyone else in the Easter half of the U.S. saw it, but our girl, Pamela Chelin, was in the clip. I would think that the fact it is going overnight with deliberations, it might not be as "cut and dry" as we want it to be.
Well, it's 4:30 pm in LA - time for the court to close and the jury to start thinking about what they're going to eat for dinner. Having sat through all of this, I doubt any of them will want to decide anything before getting their last supper. Eat first decide later, get home in time to catch most of the Dodgers game.
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3 hours ago, Strider said:
Maybe the defense is worried that the jury would be confused by Robert Plant's sense of humour and his tendency to wander in the linguistic garden. Robert is his own man...he is going to tell it like it is and in his own inimitable way.
How many times has Robert given an interview and people come to the forum all indignant over some perceived slight or insult made by Robert, only to discover that they just misunderstood Robert's impish humour?
The jury is made up of four women and four men but what is this about them not speaking English? Where has this been confirmed? This is the Federal Court of the United States. Shouldn't English be a prerequisite? The trial is conducted in English and yet we are supposed to believe they would have a jury of non-English speaking people? Does that even make sense?
I think you nailed it.
And the answers to those questions are: 1) Never confirmed, 2) Yes, 3) No and 4) Hell no. Many LA Latinos don't even speak Spanish all that great, and those folks are certainly in the demographic that would be voting consistently and in the pool to be called for jury duty.
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11 hours ago, Patrick Aloyysiuus said:
suicides are rarely posted in obits ,not something you want relatives friends to know about
True. The vast majority -- read nearly all -- suicides and ODs are not reported and the circumstances of the persons demise are almost NEVEr posted in the obit, if there is one. "Died unexpectedly" is often the preferred language. If anyone has Lexis-Nexus you might be able to find something, if you know where the alleged "Magic Mike" and his mom lived.
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54 minutes ago, Patrick Aloyysiuus said:
jay testified 1 st n 2nd days ,was vague as to when and where things happened ,taurus wasnt played live ever
Cool. I hadn't seen his name brought up to this point. It sounds like he didn't help the plaintiffs very much. Found a good clean link without all the flash crap on Rolling Stone's webpages at Courthouse News Service - very objective writing and tone as well. http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/06/15/led-zeppelin-copyright-trial-hinges-on-access.htm
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11 hours ago, Strider said:
There is no connection between Jimmy and Jones admitting they heard "Fresh Garbage" and their writing "Stairway to Heaven". One does not have anything to do with the other. With all the interviews Jimmy has given in the past where he mentions Spirit, a halfway decent lawyer would be able to take their current testimony and twist it enough to cause doubt in the jury's mind.
"Fresh Garbage" and "Taurus" are both on Side 1 of the eponymous Spirit debut album. "Fresh Garbage" is track one; "Taurus" is track #4. I can believe Jimmy never heard "Taurus" or did and just doesn't remember it -- but imagine the look on his face as he's standing there with his son-in-law, looking at the label as he moves toward the turntable; it had to be something along the lines of "aww shit". I can believe 100%, however, that whomever in Led Zeppelin knew "Fresh Garbage" and introduced it to the rest of the band, may have only listened to the one track, and then maybe only as far as the middle section where Spirit goes into the Coltrane-esque thing. I can see lifting the needle there and putting it back to the beginning, doing that a few times, getting the bass line down and then reaching for the James Brown record. Led Zep is only interested in the bass line, nothing more on the track.
But imagine explaining that to the jury, then having to sit there and wait for their verdict, knowing in your gut that they probably didn't buy it.
It's so pathetic. four $@% notes that aren't played the same way, don't sound very similar and go off in different directions. This whole thing is an unholy farce, except maybe for this great discussion we've been having. I just re-read through, and this thread has been quite a good read. Thank you everyone!!
Pamela Chelin
I don't buy it hehe.
"Taurus" just isn't a very interesting piece (it's so incomplete), and there was nothing to learn from "Fresh Garbage", based on what he's playing in those live shows. When he's quoting Jeff Beck in the "Bolero" section of HMMT, he doesn't even play the lick the same way Beck does. Jimmy can't help but be original, it seems to me, which is one reason he's so fascinating. And in the end, isn't this was what burns the Wolfe trust? What Jimmy Page plays throughout the history of Zep just doesn't sound like it owes much of anything to any music that came before. And cheers to that 
Little Things You Don't Like About Led Zeppelin?
in Led Zeppelin Newbies
Posted
White Summer's not LOng enough!!!
Seriously, the two Willie Dixon covers on the first album are everything the critics said they were. I can enjoy "I Can't Quit You" live but cringe through "You Shook Me." There. I said it.
Why put two Dixon covers on the first album? One can only speculate, and no one (journalists, etc) has ever asked why? Was there a business arrangement between Grant/Page and Chess records, where Dixon worked as studio manager? Did the Yardbirds owe Chess money? THere had to be a reason, unless Page simply wanted to showcase Plant's over-the-top wailing in two different keys. I don't understand, probably better off not knowing.