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DATguy

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  1. Hello all. I was hoping the community might be able to identify a sound for me. It is something present in many recordings of all sorts of things before, but there are too many factors to determine what it is except on a case-by-case basis. So I'm sure you've all heard it, obviously it's an excellent recording and an excellent show. But what I want to know about is this sound very close to the top of human hearing threshold, and it sounds almost like "air" or a "sound of silence", except it possesses an unpleasant pressure. I have taken some screen shots and will upload, so you can see what it looks like; it is the straight line at just below 16-KHz. If you listen to the concert, and follow the line causally, I think you will all be able to determine exactly which sound I mean. I am trying to remove this line/sound, but so far no avail without harmonic loss elsewhere; it would help a lot though if I knew what it was, as opposed to just trying to chop out something I didn't like. This line is present in many excellent vinyl rips, etc, i've seen The Line a million times, and loudness seems to be a common factor, but only in this Knebworth recording is is audibly conspicuous enough to bother me, and quite frankly it sort of ruins the show for me. One thing I find very curious is that the line is obviously present throughout the recording, but the sound goes away toward the end of the concert, like seven or eight songs before it ends. I have no idea why. There are times throughout the show that the sound dissipates momentarily, and sometimes it goes away in accordance to instruments being used, in a gating/ducking/replace-the-sound kind of way. this leads me to believe that it is a channel fader up on the board for something that is unutilized, so it's just an open empty channel. But like I said, there are quite simply too many factors, so I was hoping people could help me in this particular instance. Because it is a recording of a concert, it could be feedback, it could be quantization distortion, it could be the open channel, it could be phase, it could be the PAs and amps, like turned up so much you're just hearing them all being ON period... I'm pretty positive it has nothing to do with the tape, because like i said i've seen it in vinyl rips etc... but really in the end there are just too many factors. I don't expect anyone to necessarily know for a fact, unless like maybe if you were there yourself, or are yourself a musician who has lots of live-performance experience, but even if anyone wants to take a guess, please do; any and all input is appreciated. My question has no stupid answers, srsly even if you have zero knowledge of pro-audio it doesnt matter, just shout out whatever, you'll never know what magic words might help answer the question for me. thanks guys! i'm looking forward to your responses. peace for now. pics below. PS - i am including as a fifth picture a random vinyl rip spek as well, just so yall can see an example of The Line elsewhere than Knebworth. The vinyl rip is an excellent recording done on high-class gear, in fact that's where i've seen the image the most, which is why i think loudness can be a common factor; also, there is always like ONE rip out there that's better, and it never has the line, so that leads me to believe that at least in the case of vinyl ripping it's a gainstaging issue. anyhow thanks again, cheers.
  2. ZepPhan-WR thank you i have merely one clarification if you'd be so kind: when you say Eddie did the vinyl transfer of BadgeHolders, are you talking about the same release as pluribus? Tarantura's "Three Hours Of Lunacy"? I'm just trying to clarify if you are talking about that version, or if you mean that like the original release of BadgeHolders, like whatever the first bootleg was? OK look actually let me make this even simpler: i'm going to list the rips of this show i possess, and if anyone knows for a fact that one of them is the eddie transfer, please pipe in. i normally wouldn't be this needy and i do apologize for that, the only reason for it though, as you will see, is that i have quite a few different things that could be it: 1 - For Badgeholders Only (Rockwrok); 2 - For Badgeholders Only (Scorpio); 3 - For Badge Holders Only (SODD); 4 - Sgt. Page's BadgeHolders Club Band (Tarantura2000); 5 - For Badge Holders Only - 3cd (EVSD 471/472/473) from the boxset 18cd+1dvd Empress Valley (EVSD 465~482 & EVSDVD 016); 6 - 1977-06-21~22~23~25~26~27 - A Week For Badge Holders (Tarantura); and 7 - For Badge Holders Only - Vinyl Rip (Dragonfly Records) (and then also the dadgad remaster but obvsly it's not that) Obviously if it were just right there in the liner notes or something i wouldnt have to ask, but i dont have a day to meticulously ear-match AUD sources like that. And the fact is that in order to do things right you cannot just pick up any old source; signal deterioration is the reason for desired low-gen, and this still occurs if you remaster something (that's all i meant by what i said about the Winston Remasters, for example - one might be so inclined to say "well the WRs sound good, why dont you just add to those?" but unfortunately that's not how it works). anyway thanks all once again; believe me i would not be posting and then persisting the thread had i not already spent ample time googling and whatnot. peace for now
  3. What is the vinyl source, then? because i'm fairly certain it's not what the post above yours mentions; that is a vinyl from something called Dragonfly, i have found zero information linking eddie to that source, i WOULD HAVE found info linking eddie to that source were it so, i have both that dadgad remaster and the original and artwork came with it and i sure as heck dont see "eddie edwards" or "trampled underfoot" anywhere on it, and in any case a remaster of anything wouldnt be low-gen. what is the vinyl source you are mentioning, pluribus? Because so far as I can tell, "For Badgeholders Only" originated from TDOLZ and all other copies are remasters of that. I have found evidence confirming that Edwards engineered the Tarantura release, but with all due respect that statement in no way indicates it was necessarily his low-gen source. I speak from experience when i tell you that a music engineer is a yacht-driver (assuming they are still using a real board like an SSL9000J or a flagship Amek as opposed to just Pro Tools on their laptop or something), and what i mean by that is simply that an engineer is not someone who makes decisions about WHAT is recorded, he/she is simply given recordings and ordered to mix them to the best of their ability (or, in far more likely scenarios, quite simply to the best of what the artist wants, whether you know on a technical level that it is "right" or not; hence the loudness war, upsampling, and several other complete abuses of mixing which have become commonplace due entirely to the fact that ppl without "The Ear" still can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless, and more to the point that the mixes are made with the format in mind. again, i speak from experience, very few if any rappers have ever been like "let's do things right and go from initial stems to final bounce all in the same bit-depth and sample-rate, and i want that BD/SR to be AT LEAST 24/96"; music is product and so it is mixed catering to fluctuating mp3 frequencies coming out of pre-EQed consumer devices, with car stereos being the primary target of such pre-EQing because that's where ppl still listen to music the most according to statistics. Every single rapper i have ever worked with -- and just to make it clear right now, no i am not anyone who is considered hot $h|t in the industry or anything -- has blown our beautiful Augspurger monitors to shit with upsampled compressed-to-heck low end and they require repair after every last one of those sessions. no one cares that it's the wrong way to do things any more, and mixing is no longer lucrative enough an occupation that you can tell an artist he or she is wrong about ANYTHING unless you're already someone with like 20 gold and platinum records and at least one grammy under their belt. Also, clearly stated in Winston's notes: the thing from Eddie has something to do with being titled "Trampled Underfoot". that aint the Dragonfly release, the Tarantura release, or anything else i've ever seen directly linked to June 23rd. Unless Tarantura is OWNED by eddie edwards (heck, maybe it is, i dunno, if it is i'll eat my words gladly) then it is not incredibly realistic to assume that eddie was told to engineer "For Badgeholders Only" and then just slipped his own tape in there on the down-low; i'm sure things worked much differently in recording in the late 70s but that would be career-suicide for an engineer today and i fail to see how it would not also be so back then. i will look into what you are saying pluribus but i have the Tarantura release and i'm not necessarily saying you're wrong but i sure don't remember making any mental connection between its sound and the first four songs of "Mike and Eddie". Also, bear this in mind, and i'm in no way trying to disrespect Winston when i say this, I'm sure it's safe to say we're ALL grateful for all his work, but the man openly admits in his notes to basically just lining the two sources up and then using a plug-in to make them both not so INCREDIBLY distinct from one another. it's no different than the "Genuine Masters"; nothing from GM is an actual literal Genuine Master, there is only one true genuine master and in the case of the 1977 Forum shows we're basically talking about Millard. compare the GM shows to other "video soundtrack" shows, such as Seattle '77; the similarity in sound is not a coincidence. DVDA, to greatly oversimplify it, is just a shadow cast over multiple sources to blur the lines between them; hence no DVDA of any show that has been captured in full 100% soundboard unless it was a major release like TSRTS. if you run Forum GM through even the most simplistic of spectrographs, you get something that quite simply is not what tape looks like. the spek may look finer, but that is still not first-gen or even low-gen and therefore is not even up for consideration as a serious remastering source. Have you ever listened to really good soundboards closely, and by closely i mean like over good headphones from a quality source? Even the best SBDs, such as Lord of the Strings or Texas Hurricane or Magical Sound Boogie, please take it from me because if i may be so bold i AM in fact sorta-kinda a source of expertise in this area, those recordings are less safe to listen to than random MP3s, because they've been processed so many times. dadgad is a perfect example, in fact; i'm sorry but that man just simply doesnt know what he's doing. if you find yourself with a headache after listening to anything processed by dadgad, guess what that's no coincidence. OK look this is my ultimate point: it's been a while, i like to think i'm good at what i do, and i have the millard tapes, but i need eddie's source to do anything with the 23rd. what does the part of your sentence mean when it says that an alternate source was used, then a vinyl source, and then Millard's tapes? you're saying there is a third source i should be aware of if personal remastering is on my mind? again i'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, i have no idea if you are or not, it just seems unlikely to me that in all my research i found no indication that the readily-available Tarantura "Badgeholders" is in fact Eddie's 1st-gen-tape-to-vinyl transfer, and just because you see his name and that release in the same sentence does NOT mean it is his source; I would love it if it turned out you were right, because it would mean i could stop looking, but "I engineered Tarantura's release and also happen to be an enthusiast who tapes them" quite simply is an entirely different statement than "this release comes directly from the tape I supplied Tarantura". the Dragonfly release is no secret either; i just feel as though that information is too obtuse to not appear distinctly in any literature. Again, I really want to stress, not saying you're necessarily wrong, in fact it would thrill me if you were right; it just seems as though such info would not be so secretive, to not be clearly stated in any literature i have studied in pursuit of this source. i also want to stress something else: every time you touch an audio signal, touch it AT ALL, it deteriorates. I've seen, for example, rips of zep shows that say in the notes "i used this guy's remix as my source". for any true audiophile that is UNACCEPTABLE, like entirely without discussion UN-AC-CEPT-AB-LE, and if nothing else even if the Dragonfly release is in fact Edwards' source then the dadgad remaster would be UN-AC-CEPT-AB-LE to use for mixing quite simply because it is anything beyond 2nd-gen. (i have original Dragonfly too, i'm just saying, like FYI for anyone reading, just because someone else already improved it doesnt mean they did work for you without consequences, because you're ultimately still talking about further processing and thus deterioration of the signal.) I've rambled enough, I always do. I'm pretty darn sure it's not the Dragonfly release, but if it is then I owe the poster an apology and regardless will be grateful to him; i seek merely confirmation of the source. pretend the Winston Remasters haven't happened, and I'm Winston asking you what to look for in order to complete the 23rd with Eddie's source, as low-gen as possible of course. who what where when, all that. names, labels, hell supply me an eBay link if it's for sale. Again, i want to make it VERY clear, i am not attempting to dispute you, i am just trying to MAKE SURE i acquire as low-gen sources for all nights at the Forum as possible so as to try my own hand at remastering them. thank you both for your input and i would gladly welcome more and more.
  4. Hello all. I was wondering if anyone had specific I.D. information about the Eddie Edwards source which was originally combined with mike millard's tapes. the most information i've been able to garner about it is the following: ""Eddie Edwards "Trampled Underfoot" 1st Gen cassette of vinyl transfer"". Now, granted, I have yet to scour the earth for it, but I have put quite a spot of time into my search now and so far as I can tell, either this source completely no longer exists, or I'm doing a really bad job of dissecting the semantics of that sentence, which came from a description in the Winston Remasters. I have also found evidence that there was a release of... trying to remember... i think it may have even just been "For BadgeHolders Only", but was released on a label called Balboa, and is apparently the only non-Millard complete source without unforgivable issues such as single-channel dropouts, etc. I thought perhaps this could possibly be the "vinyl transfer" mentioned in the Winston Remasters, but have not found a way to confirm that, nor have I been able to find this Balboa release in the first place. Bottom Line: Does anyone have any information about that vinyl transfer mentioned in the Winston Remasters, or even just have any knowledge to add concerning lowest-gen-as-possible Eddie Edwards source? Because this is literally everything I got, and it ain't much. The winston remaster wasn't done that long ago, right? So it's unlikely we're talking about something that time has swallowed forever, one would think. Anyway thank you in advance; I figured if I was going to ask the question anywhere, it should be here.
  5. btw just in case i need to point out the obvious, in 2016 we are at a technological point when every single last piece of hardware used for DAT transfer is obsolete. I can tell you from having worked in a place specializing in DAT repair exactly how rarely a DAT deck actually passed through our hands, they truly are on the verge of never being seen again. google if you don't believe me; there are literally entire businesses who just transfer DAT for people, that's how rare it's become, and it's only going to get more rare. CDs are long obsolete, and it's becoming difficult to even find a computer for sale now -- obviously not new -- that has a disc drive, even optical drives are going out the door. dropouts and compatibility issues stem from the recorders and tapes not the computers, and everything that is hardware will only depreciate further and these are already practically extinct, so the remaining option of a professional sound card won't even matter soon enough, and even then it's not like sector boundaries etc are common knowledge. so if you do in fact die of natural causes before you ever hear even one truly complete and untouched led zeppelin soundboard recording, don't worry, because no one else ever will either, because the data will be lost forever. do you guys see what i am saying? it's not a question of prying them from the hoarders' cold dead fingers, it's a matter of whether or not it will still be possible to retrieve the data on them by then. it is entirely possible that we are within one single decade of NEVER being able to perform a DAT transfer again, because at the end of the day you're talking about hardware that needs to be maintained and eventually the parts to maintain them go extinct themselves. holding out to sell them at $500 a pop on eBay on CD? cool. except for the part where no one has a CD player any more. time is the enemy. and it's been fifty years. you've had your fun, too bad you didn't have the foresight to unload your consumer-level physical mediums while they still, ya know, EXISTED, but you didn't, and now it's TIME to give up the goods. it just really bothers me that, for example, one of the 1977 recordings that is considered canon is Utah. that recording is literally unlistenable IMO, it's a giant steaming pile that i literally have listened to once and never will again because it really is that bad; and yet that's the standard. people shouldnt be OK with that.
  6. i want to ask "but just why deprive us then, even if not all SBDs and follow same format, why keep complete shows from us?" but i cant, because something about all this really doesnt add up. 1) i am listening to Lord Of The Strings right now, the 30th. listen to No Quarter. you cant seriously tell me there's anything accidental about how the AUD edit starts EXACTLY at that rockin part and also EXACTLY when it ends. just, why? you cant possibly tell me it's because of: 2) copyright. it's not like "if you leave an edit in there you can't be sued". every last one of these SBDs are in violation of copyright law four seconds into the first song. and speaking of which, whether it be specifically Jimmy or Zep's labels or both, if they cared why haven't they taken action? didnt EVSD begin well over a decade ago? there would be no Empress if anyone who mattered cared. but then why keep parts of shows from us, if not all the shows? 3) quality. even if they didn't know it before, now that they do, why arent we getting these re-released to us in full glory, and whether this idea appeals to you or not that means no processing including no track breaks. To get the show in full glory = proper digital transfer at same sample rate and bit depth 100% dry and all in one go, and that's it. it means giving us a copy. putting these three points together do not add up. the labels would not exist if page, plant, atlantic or whomever cared one even one tiny bit. that the labels defy copyright and still exist means that truly no one cares, because no one in that industry turns down free money and if you're just going to throw yourselves to the wolves aka lawyers like that, they not only will gladly take it, but you can be CERTAIN they wont turn down what they see as business opportunity. so no one cares who matters, and even if they did and they needed the actual bootleggers to do anything legally, the bootleggers could still follow the current model. so why aren't we really getting them then. even if we're not being "showered" with them, why the edits? most significant, why the apparent disregard for quality by supposed purists? i wont go on so as to not write a second russian novel but srsly does anyone have any insight to any of these matters whatsoever?
  7. Hi. This is my first post on this forum. You guys seem like a pretty laid back bunch; this and enough web prominence as a Led Zep site is what I needed to say/ask whats on my mind. If I don't come across as a very "warm" person I assure you it is only in my attempt to remain succinct, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. This being said, I my post must be preambled with the following information: 1) i am 33, and i state my age so that it is known i am aware there are many users here who were at many of these shows; between that and having used to work for a music-tech shop that specialized in DAT repair where one of my co-workers was someone who used to follow around and tape the Dead, i want to reinforce how much i am NOT trying to ruffle feathers by making it clear i know how to respect my elders, especially elders who used to follow around bands and record them. 2) As to which I alluded in my first point, I am (IMHO at least), very well educated when it comes to recording and mixing audio; i have been doing it for a while now and at this point i barely even consider myself an engineer so much as just, like, a "DSP specialist" or something. It is very important to me I make this known and also say it right, because it will undoubtedly be from this "area" that any conflict or "flaming" arises. Obvsly I have lurked the board for some time and I see many subjective opinions about sound quality in context of individual recordings. I want you all to know, I am not here with the intention of becoming the forum's local sound expert or anything, nor will you ever catch me disrespecting someone else's aforementioned subjective opinion. However, pro audio is digital. Even in the case of, for example, LZ, whose entire existence prior to the death of Mr. Bonham (which, btw, i mean not that the death of any remotely good person isnt any less truly a tragedy, but who knows what rock would look like today had this band not been stopped in their tracks) obvsly predates anything digital about recording and mixing as we know it today. In a world of trying to preserve every last byte on computers trying to catch signals moving approximately 500x faster than they can, it is no longer about "turning the knob until it sounds purple enough" or whatever. I am saying this so that it remains perfectly clear that you can go ahead and keep your subjective opinion regardless of any science i drop. Ultimately my point is this: EVSD is quite obviously just someone using any one of a million generic EQ plug-ins for which they have a "led zeppelin preset" with all its parameters pushed to the max, it ALWAYS sounds like crap, and i'm sick of this idea amongst the community that i should be grateful to these people for anything. If nothing else, they are possibly the party responsible for the main thrust of my post, which shall soon be addressed. Preamble over. OK let's talk turkey. Here's a perfect, all-encompassing example of my issue with how these SBD releases are being handled: as collectors of LZ bootlegs, I'm sure you all have encountered many .txt files saying that the software used was Audacity. Have any of you ever seen this site? http://src.infinitewave.ca/ the desirable result is the top one: more black = more clean. bottom represents undesirable; color = noise added by processing. And as you can see on the site, yes, Audacity is capable of achieving desirable results. But HOW DO YOU KNOW if that was the way Audacity was used in any particular case? I listen to everything over flat-frequency-response monitors fed by an Apogee preamp, and I am telling you, if you take a lossless file that, say, has 30 seconds of silence at the end, and just cut off the silence, and then bounce it, then unless you have done EVERYTHING right, and it's not like we're talking about just a couple things here, you WILL hear the noise added by JUST having USED the program. You may love those EVSD releases where they seem to just run everything through the same exciter/enhancer/whatever using the exact same parameters regardless of individual recording, and that's fine, you go ahead and keep loving it, but there are a lot of factors to consider, such as what frequencies you've lost / still have in your ears, your pre-EQed stereo system if you're using anything even remotely consumer-level, the acoustic space where you listen if it's regularly the same location, how many times it's been messed with before EVSD got their hands on it, etc etc. Here is the golden rule of manipulating audio: everything, EVERYTHING, you do to the signal, every time you TOUCH it, AT ALL, it will depreciate. This is why I emphasized my last line above. I'm not going to give a science lesson here but in the case of SBDs you should be trying to get as close to the source as possible. 1980 soundboards all run a little fast? Doesn't matter; original recording or GTFO. Don't want to do things like speed-correct it yourself? that's fine, completely understandable. BUT SOME OF US DO, BECAUSE WE THINK THE PEOPLE DOING IT FOR US REALLY REALLY SUCK AT IT. Listen to Texas Hurricane's "Stairway to Heaven". Listen to the end. The last verse. Missing a line, isn't it? You ever hear an edit made due to tape problems that sounded like that before? I promise you, there's nothing wrong with that missing couple seconds of audio. It is quite obvious that someone purposefully took it out. So no, you still don't have the complete Ft Worth '77 SBD, sorry. But don't kill the messenger. Who distributed Texas Hurricane? Why does the bootleg community act as though they are so grateful for the scraps from someone else's plate every time we get something like this? Led Zeppelin is about to turn 50 years old. FIFTY. Half a century. So in other words, those of you who are older, sorry but looks like you really are going to actually literally die before you get to hear this complete soundboard. That one, and in some way or another EVERY last one, at least going from memory of my like top 20 or so. Again, don't kill the messenger; get mad at the right people. Don't lament the AUD edit; after 50 years, get mad at it! ask why the heck you're still putting up with it being there, when you know for a fact it exists somewhere in completeness. Every SBD should basically sound like the KRW_CO releases of the 1980 tour. Every SBD should sound better than those even, because even those are incomplete, or do you think it's a coincidence that on every show the cut occurs during Kashmir. Again I refer you to the Stairway edit in Texas Hurricane. Take it from someone with a trained ear, these are not accidents, the tape absolutely did NOT run out ONLY during Kashmir over the course of that ENTIRE tour; maybe if it was like the first song played, but that late in the sets? absolutely no freakin' way. likewise, no, the taper of Texas Hurricane did NOT perfectly time his tape flip, nor did the editor in 2014 decide you'd rather be deprived of material. This is where the "correct me if i'm wrong" part comes in: so supposedly full soundboards of almost everything are in Jimi Page's possession? most certainly there are many SBDs still out there, since every now and then we're "blessed" with ONE like in 2014, and likewise someone is obvsly doing things like cutting a temporally perfect amount of Stairway out. So: why are we being deprived ANY of these soundboard recordings, why are we being deprived of ANY PART of each one of those soundboards, and thirdly why is someone screwing around with them before those people "bless" us with their table scraps? If I am right about the true state of things concerning the SBDs, then why after 50 years are we not finally being showered with them? why am i devoting cumulatively who-the-heck-knows-how-much time checking for "new" material by a 50-yr-old band, and hunting on eBay for things based sometimes on mere rumors? It's not like if we get the soundboards then that's it no more way for monetary gain or anything, there are still the multitracks, which will bring in so much more revenue anyway that the point becomes moot. Yes, i DO want 500 slightly-different nearly-studio versions of Stairway, straight from that beautiful tape with its unique natural sound and possibly even higher bit-depths and sample-rates than 16/44. If I see one more txt file saying "here's your 6th-time-processed version of something we did in Audacity which is free and thus shows exactly how truly dedicated i am to efforts such as these, and who knows if we're people who have ever even heard of decimation, nyquist theory, dithering, etc, or even heard of better software we could use instead like Izotope" then i might hurl. So, if they exist, can we please get ALL COMPLETE AND UNTOUCHED SOUNDBOARD RECORDINGS before we LITERALLY die of old age, and if nothing else I want to know why not, since it's really not that big a deal since they are just bootlegs and it's not like we're asking for the freakin' Stairway multitracks or something. I know I wrote a lot, thank you for reading if you did.
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