Dr Death
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For those interested, here's Coverdale/Page live in Japan doing Kashmir. David really did a great job on all the Zeppelin covers, much better than Plant trying to sing Shake My Tree. I've heard countless versions of Plant trying to sing that, and he comes off as being totally unable to, maybe he didn't like singing a song co-written by David Coverdale, but this was also a Jimmy Page song and deserved much more respect than Plant gave it.
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On 10/2/2017 at 3:21 PM, IpMan said:
So what? Are you serious??? There is noting wrong either in critique or calling something out for scrutiny and debate, however making a completely false accusation (Death claimed Zep & Plant in particular stole IMTOD) is both uncalled for and in bad form. Please see my post above whereby I clear up the brand new controversy regarding IMTOD and educate Death in the process.
You amaze me. Plant takes lyrics from a song that was never copyrighted and you see no problem in that. And please, go get your original LP's and check the songwriting credits, you'll see that When The Levee Breaks doesn't list anybody but the members of Zeppelin as having written it.
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17 hours ago, BledZabbath said:
Agreed, you bash Zep, get the fuck out.
People who come on here to bash Zep should be automatically banned for life.
So why don't you show me where I bashed Zeppelin... you can't because I didn't. I stated a fact that most people know already, and that is that Plant took lyrics from other songwriters and claimed to have written them himself. So you and the rest of the guardians here can chill the f*ck out, I never bashed Zeppelin. Jesus Christ...
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23 hours ago, IpMan said:
How old are you? I bought those album when they first came out and all those songs (except for NFBM) that you mentioned did indeed credit the original writers...Zeppelin were never sued over those songs.
Please do not post nonsense or bullshit on this board. If I want fake news and stupid postings I will go on Facebook.
I hate to be the one to bring you into reality, but on the original Zeppelin albums the songs were credited to Page and Plant, or as In My Time Of Dying, it was credited to all four members. So how is that getting permission and not stealing? You might want to read up on it... and here you go:
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12 hours ago, IpMan said:
Also, all of the songs you quoted as Plant stealing the lyrics from (except for NFBM) were credited and royalties paid, thus, Robert did not steal anything in regard to those songs, he was given permission.
No, Plant wasn't given permission, because on the original albums those songs were credited to Plant as a songwriter and that's called stealing. Royalties may have been paid... years later... but Plant was definitely not given permission!
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21 minutes ago, Boleskinner said:
It's got nothing to do with that at all.
There's a general census on this forum that CP has Page's best studio playing since Zeppelin, featuring the old guitar army back in force.
The criticisms are generally that Coverdale's lyrics are cheesy and the production is over-blown, and are unrelated to Plant's jibes at Coverdale.
It might be a cultural thing as well. I reckon a lot of American listeners won't mind the lyrics and production, but the Brits will def think they're a bit on the Somerset cheddar side.
Well, Coverdale's lyrics were good enough for Jimmy and he gets to the point in his songs. He doesn't sing so you can't understand what he's singing and he's got an extremely powerful voice, something Plant once had, but now Plant's band has to tune way down to accompany his vocal range. Robert probably wishes he had Coverdale's power.
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I am amazed at Zeppelin fans and their total disregard for this album. There have been a few in this thread who have complimented it, but too few and too far between. Why? I'll tell you why... because of Robert Plant and his comments in 1988. If Plant had come out and said he liked Whitesnake and was a friend of David, you would all love the album. But Plant, being co classless to say the things he did, really made it difficult for Coverdale/Page to get any appreciation with his continual attacks in 1993.
A lot you say you don't like David's lyrics... okay, fine. David has always said he's a meat and potatoes, nuts and bolts lyricist. One thing he's never done though is rip off blues musicians and claim to have written something that he didn't. Plant didn't just do it on the first two albums either, he did it on IV... When The Levee Breaks. Physical Graffiti on In My Time Of Dying and on Presence on Nobody's Fault But Mine.
So if he's such a good songwriter, why the need to rip people off???
Another question... two of Plant's best songs lyrically in my opinion, are Achilles Last Stand and Carouselambra... and most of you don't even know what Carouselambra is even about... but why write such great lyrics and then sing them so they can't be understood on the album? It took me years to finally figure what he's singing in those two songs, but I just don't get the reason behind his studio performance and how he could sing them in such a way that nobody knew what the heck he was singing.
I'm sure there are videos on You Tube now that have the lyrics to these songs on the screen, but back in the 70's, there was no You Tube.
One last thing, a lot of you have been wondering about the three recorded Coverdale/Page songs that didn't make it on the album. I have two of them, and made a video for Southern Comfort. It will be below.
Jimmy made friends with David quickly and to this day, they remain friends. It's such a shame that most Zeppelin fans are so closed minded on the C/P album.
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On 2/19/2016 at 7:07 PM, the chase said:
You can think whatever you like Charles. I think Still Of The Night was an obvious attempt to boost Whitesnake in the States by modernizing their sound and image by using something proven that would get them more attention and sell them more records. No more Bernie Marsden in T-shirt's. Instead we get Adrian Vandenberg miming he's using a violin bow.
For those that don't know the whole story, and based off what I've read, not many do, Coverdale was in debt to his record company. He owed them over $300,000 dollars and set out to make 1987 a huge success. He knew they had the songs, with much of the thanks being owed to John Sykes, who was a great guitarist and worked really well with David.
But, after being sacked, when Adrian Vandenberg joined, the violin bow was all his idea. I have a Coverdale/Page interview on tape where David discusses this and Page, ever so cool, said it didn't upset him, it just made him laugh. David said... 'What was I going to do? Tell him no?' When talking about Vandenberg's idea to use a bow in the video.
I'm one of those that is a big fan of David's. His time with Jimmy was the best for Jimmy post Zeppelin by a long shot! The fact that so many Zeppelin fans hate David is a direct result of all the slamming of him that Robert did in the 80's. It's so funny too... Plant accusing someone of ripping him off, when so many of his so-called lyrics come straight out of blues songs recorded years before Zeppelin.
All I can say to those that don't like David is you have no idea what you're missing! He's a very talented singer and has produced some incredible music over the years! Oh, and as a guitarist, I can tell you that the riff in Still Of The Night is nothing like Immigrant Song. Immigrant Song is so easy to play, while Still Of The Night takes much more dexterity and skill. The riff is much more difficult to play. The only thing similar to the tracks is that both are in F#. But the riffs are not even close to being the same.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNc5jZHkK_s
Excellent post, Mr. White. It's plain and simple that some people get David and some don't. For those that don't, it's their loss, because the man has provided us with an amazing catalog of music over the years, from "Ain't No Love In The Heart Of The City," which is a cover that David actually credited those who wrote it and didn't claim that he wrote it, like some people have been known to do. Other songs like "Time And Again," "Northwinds," "Blindman," "Time On My Side," "River Song," "Love Is Blind" as well as the songs he's most known for and the album with Jimmy, show that he brings an excellent ability to sing and since his time with Jimmy is the most documented about his creativity... the man inspired the heck out of Jimmy and to this day they remain friends.
This is a Zeppelin board and there are going to be folks who just won't give him any chance at all. Like I said... their loss.
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I agree with everyone saying how great Down By The Seaside is... always been one of my favorite songs. On my iTunes I have numerous Zeppelin play lists, including solo material from Jimmy and Robert as well as Page/Plant and Coverdale*Page. As Presence is my favorite album, I made a play list that I call Perfection. Now most of you won't like this, and that's fine, it's MY personal choice, but here's the play list in order of songs:
Achilles Last Stand
For Your Life
In The Light
Bron-Y-Aur
Down By The Seaside
Ten Years Gone
Nobody's Fault But Mine
Candy Store Rock
Hots On For Nowhere
Tea For One
I could have added others, such as Immigrant Song and Going To California, but decided to just add side three of Physical Graffiti to Presence, minus Royal Orleans. If you have the chance to put those songs in that order on your iTunes or on a CD, I guarantee that you will be blown away!!!
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There's been quite a bit of talk about the crummy cover art. I actually like it very much, and the semi- Floydness of some of the inner sleeve images. My interpretation of the cover could be wrong, but to me it seems to symbolize two artist paths, crossing at right angles, but joining toward a common purpose: namely the collaborative album. On that basis it makes sense, because Coverdale and Page were on very different trajectories, and then it happened, out of nowhere.
That's absolutely correct. Two artists merging together to form one... that's what it means, and like you, I do like the cover art. And inside the CD with the Merge Sign in various places... that represents their music reaching people all over the world.
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Possibly, but demand for tickets just wasn't there in the first place so David insisting upon arena-sized venues didn't help.
You'll have to forgive me, Steve, as it's been over 20 years and the memory may not be as sharp as I would like, but when the Coverdale/Page album was released, it was a HUGE hit. Pride & Joy was all over radio, soon to be followed by Shake My Tree, and that's when they should have toured. Begining in March - when the album was released - or, at the latest, April.
Instead, because of Jimmy's manager, the tickets didn't go on sale until what... August or September? You know the music industry, particularly at that time with Grunge, people move on if they can't see a band.
My point on them touring is if they would have done it like The Firm did... The Firm played shows in Europe before their album was even released, then they immediately hit the road here in the States when it was released... I know, because I saw the second U.S. show The Firm played, in Wichita, Kansas.
Had David and Jimmy toured starting in March or April, I have no doubt that they could have played arenas and not suffered from a lack of ticket sales. Such a shame because Jimmy and David invested three years of their lives into this project {1991-93} and all they got for it was seven shows in Japan.
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There are a lot of people including myself that felt that the "Van Hagar" era was better in some ways. Many people refer to that era as such (even though it sounds goofy) it's the reality of reference. I don't think he was mocking himself so much as he was pointing out how his time with VH is referred to by fans and critics alike.
Musically speaking, the "Van Hagar" era had a good number of well written songs and a more mature approach to song writing in general. The 5150 album is one of Van Halen's finest moments through and through. Like it or not, they wrote good music together. Diamond Dave was a complete showman. Hagar was a better vocalist. I know there are many threads on this topic (who's the favorite) so I'm trying not to go there, but your comment sparked a need to engage.
And your comment sparks a need to respond...
There may well be some fans - or many, as you indicate - that think the Hagar era was better, but having been around when VH released their first album and witnessing the impact that that band had on music was an amazing thing to see, hear and feel. And DLR was a huge part of their success.Sure, he's a showman, he's arrogant, but he doesn't try to hide that. He is exactly who he presents himself to be. And when it came to live concerts back in the day - 1978-1984 - it was pretty difficult to top Van Halen and Roth had a lot to do with that as well. He could turn an arena into a small room by making everyone feel that the show was being played in their back yard, if you know what I mean.
One thing I would take exception to is when you say the music with Hagar was more "mature." Eddie wrote/writes almost every single note of music and it was Eddie who grew and matured and this came through in his music. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but it felt as though you were saying with Roth their music was amaturish and insolent.
Let's take a look at Roth with the more mature Eddie... in 1996 when he reunited with the band for two songs - Can't Get This Stuff No More and Me Wise Magic - both are just amazing songs and shows me that Roth could easily fit in with any style that Eddie wanted to play in. I was a bit disappointed when their most recent album was mostly old songs reworked. Apparently they are working on a new one with Roth and I can only hope for that sound they had on the two 1996 songs.
Not trying to change your opinion, because that's impossible. But believe me, there are far more fans who prefer the Roth era - Sammy himself even said so in a recent interview when he said that VH should take Michael back because 'that's what the fans want! The original line up.' He then went into a long diatribe about how he would happily tour with them if asked and if things were 'cool...' Typical Hagar. LOL
So, for me, and millions of others, I'll take Roth over Hagar any day. Now if their new album would be like those two songs from 1996... now that would be something very cool! Cheers!!!
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Would Page need Coverdale's permission to perform or record the songs with another singer? Would he need to pay him royalties?
No. When playing songs live you don't need anyone's permission or to pay royalties. To give you a perfect example of this... do you think that Robert would have agreed to let David sing Kashmir or any of the other Zep songs that C/P played in Japan? Playing live is a different animal than releasing something on CD/album/digital format. That said, I wish Jimmy and David would make a follow up and then tour America. I believe if they had toured the U.S. the response would have been so overwhelming that they would have been too tempted to make another album. Word of mouth would have gotten out and the audiences would have grown and grown.
Unfortunately, Jimmy's manager at the time screwed the whole thing up. It's quite possible that if they had toured the States that C/P might have released two, three or four albums... but we'll never know, thanks, as I said, to Jimmy's former manager.
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I guess I'll just never understand those that want so badly for Jimmy to release a new album. The guy gave us Led-Zeppelin... that alone should be enough, but then he did Death Wish II, the A.R.M.S. tour, The Firm, Outrider, an amazing album with David Coverdale, Page/Plant Unledded, Walking Into Clarksdale and Live At The Greek with The Black Crowes and then, to top it off, the 2007 reunion gig with Zep.
Hasn't he done enough? I realize that many here are too young and never had the chance to see Zep or The Firm or maybe even Page/Plant... but the man has done SO MUCH... can't you just enjoy his massive catalog of music??? It must be frustrating to do all he's done and still have people hounding him to do more...
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As a guitar record, Outrider proves Page is still the sultan of slash, the kaiser of krunch. But where he once held the hammer of the gods, he now sounds a bit dazed and confused.
David Fricke can B-L-O-W M-E!!! Outrider is a very good, solid effort in an era where most bands were posing, rock-star wanna-be's and Jimmy came along and showed them all - once again - how it should be done!!! F*** Rolling Stone and their continued hatred of all things Zep!!!
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My parents saw the Firm in 84 and 86, in the KC area, i know one of them was at Kemper Arena.
Would love to get my hands on the Seattle Audience Video.
I actually got to meet & speak with Tony Franklin last year when I saw Kenny Wayne Shepherd in Columbia, MO.
Tony was very friendly and talked about his days travelling with Jimmy. Said that was Jimmy was his favorite guitarist of all time.
As someone who lives in KC, I can assure you that The Firm were most definitely NOT here in 1984... they were in Europe! The closest they came to KC was 2 March 1985 in Wichita, KS. Their second US show ever and one I was at. In 1986 they played Kemper Arena on 14 May.
Just... you know... to set the record straight!
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Did he play some awesome solos on it?
Nothing earth-shattering, but then again, he was playing with what I would call an average at best, house band. I've been in and around bands for over 30 years, so I think I'm qualified enough to say what is and what isn't a good local band. Jimmy certainly makes the songs better... but nothing like Zeppelin or Coverdale/Page. He's surrounded by mediocrity and it shows... not in his playing... but what is backing him up.
That said... still a fun and interesting boot to own.
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I REALLY want to hear this concert. Does no one have a link they can send me since I see none in the thread. Plus I couldn't find something online on my own to save my life.
It's funny, but the fifth time I met Jimmy, in 1998 on the Page/Plant tour, I gave him a copy of this show on tape. CD-R's weren't that common then, and I included artwork and all the song titles. He looked genuinely shocked to get it. Don't know if he ever listened to it, though he said he would. I still have the tape around here somewhere. Jimmy's guitar is cranked up big time in the mix if memory serves, but it's a cool boot to have.
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For me it was just by chance...
It was for me too. I was listening to the album one hot afternoon and had a glass of iced tea... and you know how anything cold in a glass "sweats" in the summer... well, I picked the glass up to take a drink and a droplet fell on the album sleeve. I freaked out! Grabbed a towel and tried to gently dab it away and lo and behold... it was changing colors!
Now... for the hint about this... on the cover under the brown paper bag, there's the various photos of "John" at the bar... and the front cover has a swipe over the black and white photo and everything within that swipe is in color. So... Zeppelin were hinting at it and it was quite a cool idea. Definitely freaked some friends out back in the day under the right influence!
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Probably The Firm's best tune
Hmmm... for you, perhaps. I can think of a couple others off Mean Business that blow that one away... for me, anyway. But the best Firm song? For me, it's this one, and yes, I am aware this video has been uploaded here countless times. The groove just can't be beat.
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Here's one from Jimmy's first return to the U.S. since Zeppelin broke up. MSG in December 1983. Although, the versions of this on the 1988 Outrider tour, I think were a bit better.
I agree that the Outrider versions were better, and part of the reason for that is he's playing rhythm guitar as opposed to just wailing on leads. The riff in Who's To Blame needs him playing it, and in 1988, that's what he did. This has been posted prior, I'm sure... but here's one from that tour... along w/ Prelude as a bonus! You'll notice that he's playing w/ fire and passion, and I think one thing that hurt him at the A.R.M.S. shows was that he was playing w/ people who weren't in his band... ie; Jeff Beck's drummer/bass player, etc... The Outrider tour shows he was on it!
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In line with (I think) Knebby's take on Shake My Tree in the setlist, I think Robert was just being respectful to Jimmy's choice there. They played calling To You, so I think he may have thought it proper to include something from CP, both their most recent efforts at the time.
Keep in mind, too, that Jimmy said the Shake My Tree riff was something he first introduced to Bonzo, I think during the In Through The Out Door sessions. He said Bonzo was the only one who really got it. From that I'm guessing Robert had no lyric/melody ideas, so playing it during the first part of the first P/P tour was both a respectful way of playing something from Jimmy's most recent work and also, perhaps, a nod to the older days. I don't believe Robert really sang it w/ much enthusiasm to be honest. He probably HATED singing something that Coverdale wrote and Robert changed the lyrics in some places... and, to me, it sounded like he just wanted to get past that song and on to the next one.
Robert apparently doesn't care for Coverdale, which is fine if that's how he wants to be. But he could have at least gave the song the proper passion it needed as it was something Jimmy wrote. It would have been akin to Jimmy half-assing his way thru Calling To You and playing some butchered solo... which Jimmy would never do. He's just too professional that way.
Evidence below:
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Personally speaking, I was a huge Coverdale fan in the late 70s and early 80s and often argued his case (even with Robert) but I don't like this album at all. Is that allowed? Or if I say I don't like it, does that mean I have a vendetta against Coverdale, or Jimmy, or have my head up Robert's ass? ( sounds uncomfortable).
It amazes me that when this album is discussed, people aren't actually allowed to just DISLIKE it without some apparent secret motive.
Well, reading through my post I don't believe you'll see me call you out. If you don't like it, fine. But I remember at the time many Zeppelin fans, like 98% of them, were dead set against it before they even heard a single note of music. And when the album came out they refused to listen to it because David Coverdale was singing and not Robert Plant. I find closed-minded people like that so sad because, in this instance, they missed out on a great album.
If you don't like it that is perfectly fine. It's your choice. I just think you're missing out on some amazing music. To each his own.
Coverdale/Page
in Pre / Post-Zeppelin Forum
Posted
To each his own, I guess, but if you can't realize that David Coverdale has a great voice, then I don't know what's wrong with you. I think it sounds great and a lot of other people share my opinion.