Matjaz1
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Posts posted by Matjaz1
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Actually as a musician I can tell you that many Zep songs have easy parts, certainly not most solos , but much more than people think.
And the comments about the (to me, anyway)rather neck breaking jerk after FON and Robert's hellbent efforts to not go anywhere near
typical "rock" are spot on. There's nothing wrong whatsoever with simple or basic parts, just that IMO a lot of Robert's stuff since FON
seems to have overly sparse sections out of place, sometimes a sign that a non-instrumentalist is dictating the music awkwardly. The
first 2 solo albums don't stutter.
If it's not a problem, that's it's easy and simple for you, it would be nice to hear some more argumentation, why a certain part is actually out of place and
wrong for you! I think in Morning dew, the guitar and keyboard parts go really well with the theme of the song and the vocals!
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Not boring or not comments without a definite amount of merit. It just seems to me after FON Robert's following became very polarized.
Even on other forums Zep fans either stayed aboard regardless, or rather quickly became disinterested. Jones made a comment which I
think is right on ; ( not direct quote)"I still like to create and perform loud music, Robert doesn't" . No one says Robert should play rock
cliche's, but most of his last 10-15 yr output he has walked far away from his previous music. Of course an artist should grow and take
chances, but you can't blame fans for not wanting to hear SOME rock'n'roll. IMO Manic Nirvana had much rock energy, but had few if
any cliche's.
I think some don't like it because of other genres, Robert incorporated in latter solo career and some because of his criticsm of society, which he pretty much avoided in Zeppelin and early solo career and he has a lot to say, it's great he wrote some of the songs on Fate of nations and Mighty rearranger!
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I think it's great, one of his best! Great songs, great arrangements! I will write more about it latter! I just have to!
As far as some saying, he has mediocre parts and mediocre musicans on some projects and that it might also be a product of his control,
it's almost like you are saying, that speedy virtuosity and operatic vocals are everything! It can most certainly be a sign of probable success,
if it's musical enough and incorporated into great songs, which again is rather hard to say, why a certain song is great, it's always
related to personal taste at the end and the only completely objective thing you have, is the amount of success, certain song had
and it's great us fans, can appreciate albums like Fate of nations, because it had little success! Robert probably knew,
people expected different things in early nineties(Guns n roses, Nirvana type stuff), but he followed his heart!
What I'm saying is, that Robert knows very well, there are many ways to approach arrangements, even in Zeppelin they did that
and if someone thinks, some song of his is mediocre, just because it doesn't have a fast solo, then I'm sorry to hear that!
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It's easier to tune it and tune it back for Stairway to heaven!
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I think this discussion now, is mostly about Jimmy's sound again! Not that much in latter years, when he was rather sloopy, but I just think that there is such a thing, that his style of playing, his sound, might bring a feeling of a less technical player to some people, but there were many players in history, that had their own sound, infact we don't even know how some of the classical greats actually sounded, beacuse they couldn't record them!!
Some people just prefer a typical sound of someone who practised many hours a day for decades in various music shools and therefore has no sound of his own and no originality! I'm not saying all such people lack a true interest in music and creativity, but some certainly do and many times listen to something at cheap high class social events!
Jimmy is a true great, that was more then enough brilliant technically aswell, especially early on!
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Really great how some of you describe the emotion in his playing and it's there always and sometimes the sloppiness adds emotion and sometimes the emotion is so strong, it just makes it sound different, unique!
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Bottom line though -and I suppose this applies for all these "80's virtuosos"- take Steve Vai's effects gadgetry and seven string custom Ibanez away from him and stick a goddamn Martin D-28 in his hands...how would he fare?
Well he certainly wouldn't phrase as good!
:-/ confused :-/
Brian Eno is not a guitarist
Haha, I replied to the first quote!
Another good example of great early precision is the bonus material on disc one, especially Danish TV and most of the main feature is like that too, although Jimmy's sound is a bit more distorted than ussualy that night!
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"Honour thy mistake as hidden intention." - Brian Eno
Yeah his sound is very cool, but it's harder to achieve the sound of 80's virtuosos, in particulary Vai!
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To go more in detail, sometimes even in the early years, he got a bit entangled in the fast low lines, for example in Dazed or I can't quit you babe, or perhaps messing up a repetitive high lick which he repeated several times when it seemed like he wanted atleast once more and he somehow saved it with something similar at the end,
but those things were rare and if you repeat something, no one knows how many times you actually wanted to play it, although I'm shure Van halen could repeat it for a minute!
Jimmy could still successfully repeat it in the middle of Stairway solo though! And he was a far better improviser(phraser) and composer then Van Halen and had a far better band!
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Read my first post again. I'm talking about a career overview - not a specific period. Sloppy playing does not necessarily mean making mistakes - it's also a stylistic thing, one example of which I gave in the above post. To clarify my point - '68 his playing was damn good for the time and the genre. By '73 his playing had reached its peak, after which there was a general decline in spite of some stellar moments. Up to '73 he really was working hard at his craft. After that his focus turned to the visual stagecraft (and the partying) to the detriment of his playing.
Again a case in point for sloppiness as a stylistic description rather than meaning a slew of mistakes is the Heartbreaker solo - it is sheer brilliance, but it is as sloppy as hell - especially in terms of his picking hand.
if you haven't already, see if you can listen to the available multi-tracks/separations for Heartbreaker from LZII. That solo in the middle section specifically. He tried that solo more than a few times - he tried during the original recording and couldn't pull it off convincingly The only time he really pulled it off in the studio was the version we hear on the record - and that was the first of many takes he tried in a session totally separate from the original recording of the song. The other attempts are a texbook in sloppy playing. The problem was - he had a loose framework for the solo but didn't really know what he was going to play until the moment he played it. Totally flying by the seat of his pants. The fact that he actually managed to pull off such a brilliant example is testament to his playing - BUT.... if he'd planned the solo a bit more, thought about what he was going to do and practised around those ideas a little more rather than winging it - I think he wouldn't have struggled so much in the studio with it (you can hear his frustration with himself in the outtakes), and may have played such a blinder that people just wouldn't mention the word sloppy in the same sentence as that solo.
Don't get me wrong - Page is by far my favourite guitarist bar none. I just find myself frustrated that he came so far with his technique and kinda stopped, and even went backwards a bit.
Yeah, but he wanted such a solo in the studio, he did it differently and far better live!
As for some people making a point about Vai and Van Halen, sometimes it would not be bad if besides the phrasing, Jimmy could also play as technical as Vai or Satriani
but he could be very technical in the early years, but still not as much as Vai and Van Halen!
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Playing the same piece over and over is not the kind of practice I meant, and that can get pretty boring. The sort of practice I meant is stuff to improve strength, accuracy and coordination.. For instance: whilst Jimmy is known for his blistering lead runs, his picking hand is actually pretty inaccurate a lot of the time, and later on got less synchronised with his fretting hand. It sound like he learned how to pick those lead runs pretty early on in his career, but once he'd learned the 'trick' he didn't feel the need to refine it or improve upon it. In fact he actually got worse at it - if you watch him doing that fast picking repeated run he does in the 'let that boy boogie' bit of WLL in TSRTS, he's actually picking the notes using his wrist. Watch him doing the same lick later in his career and he starts using a scrubbing motion which comes from the elbow, which can either mean he's got arthritic issues with his wrist, or more likely he doesn't practise that motion enough at speed, so when it comes to playing it in a live situation he's forced to do it from the elbow because he just hasn't trained his wrist to move that fast! He's similar to a lot of people who play instruments in that respect - they get to a certain level pretty easily, but then the jump to the next stage involves a lot more hard work than they anticipate so they get stuck at the stage they're at. It takes a lot of dedication, determination and single-mindedness to get through that, and if you've got there to find you're a world famous millionaire then there are many other distractions to stop you even wanting to try to get past that hurdle!
You just don't have a case, when you talk live 1968-1972! If you can point five significant mistakes from those releases, I will be very suprised! And studio? Yeah allright I'can't quit you babe and Heartbreaker were on purpose, but what else!??
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Yup - he was/is a super sloppy player.
He often made mistakes and fluffed notes - the more so towards the end of Zep. It seems there were times that his picking hand, his fretting hand and his brain were all in different places at the same time.
But.
He gets away with it (generally), because for him the guitar is more about feel than technical ability. There are times you can hear he's playing beyond the limits of his technical ability, and sometimes it's awful and other times it strays into absolute genius.
From the beginning of Zeppelin up until the end of 1973 his playing did nothing but improve - the constant touring and constant playing did absolute wonders for fluidity and lyricism in his technique. After that the long lay-offs and the drugs & booze, and most importantly lack of practice didn't really do him any favours at all. He seems to have spent most of the latter years of Zeppelin relying on muscle memory and the many years of touring beforehand to carry his playing, and, yes he continued to have moments of genius, but the lack of proper practice translated into sloppines and lots more fluffs and mistakes and some out-and-out dreadful playing.
Technical ability isn't everything, but if you don't practice and don't play enough you get rusty. Complacency - the 'I know that so I don't have to practise it' attitude is death to progress as a musician.
You can see a similar curve in his playing throughout the Page/Plant project - at the beginning he was playing decently, but by 1998, after extensive touring his playing was finally almost back to his 1972/73 level. He's a great player, but as far as I can see he doesn't practice (enough) and this has held him back.
There's no doubt he was a great player - but I think he could've been so much better.
This pretty much describes it, but c'mon, if you listen to BBC sessions and How the west was won, you hardly hear any sloppines at all! We all know how he sounds, when he messes up, but on those two releases it's just very rare and they sum up the early years very well!
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It's gonna be a hard job, without Jimmy giving you all the material! And all you will do basicaly, is just create another version of it!
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Not a fan really! One of the main characteristics is intesity and lots of stuff I don't like! But as Jimmy said, the whole intensity of the genre certainly comes from Led Zeppelin to a degree, so how could I not like some of the stuff still!!!
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I voted for Since I've been loving you, but my favourite ending is many times the one, that ends after half an hour!
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The studio and live versions of Bron y aur stomp have different tunings and I think it's because Page did not want That's the way and Bron to be in the same key on the album.
The tuning mentioned above is the live tuning: DGDGBD
The studio is: CFCFAC
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Written Simpsons quote:
http://ledzeppelinreferences.com/sites/simpsons.php
The only video I found is in Spanish! There is just too little of this stuff, for them to say such thing, especially when a typicall thing is like the intro in Bring it on home(they could have left the intro out easily), or various blues lyrics in The lemon song! Like I said, it's only a few songs and little bits in others and it's almost all limited to first two albums and when you look at II, it's already got tons of original stuff!
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Yeah allright, the point is, he earned money from Zep songs! Well that is not a problem legally, so why not! Zep still got paid for it, but Randy California got nothing for Stairway!
And in my opinion quite rightly so, because the difference is big and because this song by Davy Graham from 1959, was before Randy and is actually closer to Stairway! I think Graham's version also makes it clear, why Randy was so quiet for so long!
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DropDown playing someone's song in concert, is not the same as plagiarism!
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I think you are all overemphasising, because it's their most known song! They got so many totally original songs, which the general public knows quite well, so many albums sold, so many awards and many award givers knew about Stairway, I'm shure and most fans know this for a long time and it doesn't make that much of a difference, because not just that it's quite a bit different, there are many other guitar sections, that had to be WRITTEN, they are just to great, to call that arranging, then the lyrics, the recorders, bass, keyboards, drums and the vocal melody that changes four times and also has a very short chorus! !
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I hope BBC sessions, HTWWW and DVD, get more and more people into the early bootlegs! Most of the very known bootlegs of the latter era, have a lot better sound then most of the early ones and even if many latter shows bootlegs, have all the essence of the early ones, some people were missing quite a lot, by not really knowing about the greatness of the early shows, including almost non existent Page sloppiness, chameleonic nature of the early shows, great improvisations, that were especially vigoruos early on and huge energy!
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Here is a hot pick of Jimmy!
Happy new year! -
Cool! I always thought it was done with a violin bow!
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Yeah more complete experience are Zep! The Who had rocking songs, really good lyrics, melodies that were at time childish(like The Beatles) that rocked a lot more in the live version, which were punkish!
But Zeppelin had quite far superior instrumentalists and an even better vocalist, they had so many styles, they were excellent live and their shows and albums illustrated every possible way to play each instrument and every possible way to sing, their shows were life transforming and very colourful and diverse and dynamic and the song writing was more artistic, like something Roy Harper would write, but with a bit less poetry and more sexuality and mysticims and a lot more going on instrumentally and the melodies being just all over the place, because of Plant's range!!
Donovan
in Other Bands / Music
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What can I say!? Thanks! He has a really deep melancholy in his voice and it's beautiful, but it's still better for us zepsters, when the drums kick in! A really good drummer! Who is it!?