DogsoverLava
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Posts posted by DogsoverLava
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Here's the arrangement leading into the breakdown at the first coda section.... still scratch tracks as we build the arrangement and tweak the time grid.
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You guys do such nice work. This is really good. The deeper you dig, the more Zeppelin yield the gold!
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On 9/11/2019 at 8:17 PM, PeaceFrogYum said:
Jones wrote all of the symphonic notation for the track and conducted the London Philharmonic Orchestra for the recording of the track. Bonham uses an Eventide Phaser on his drums which were recorded in the same hall in Hedley Grange as WTLB with two mic's positioned above his kit. Jones played mellotron, bass, and an unnamed synthesizer as well on Kashmir. Page played the main riff on his #1 GLP & his Fender XII so the riff is actually doubled. Then in several sections he also uses his Danelectro as well and possibly even a Danelectro sitar but the sitar is unconfirmed.
Though Kashmir SOUNDS simple, it is actually extremely complex and a complete bitch to play live with even the best musicians mostly due to the different time signatures. The band utilizes, (once again) two different time signature simultaneously, 4/4 & 2/4 for drums and vocals and the guitar in 3/8 with the guitar synching up with the drums on the eight note only. That was bad enough but the song is broken down into four main sections each different (some subtle, some obvious) with complex changes just to loop back on itself. This is why the band would occasionally get lost in the song or changes get missed when played live.
Kashmir is quite a masterpiece. A typical prog rock song, which Kashmir surely is, is overtly complex and bloated but the boys take the complex and make it sound simple and accessible. Brilliant!
Thanks - I'm interested in where you got the info about the guitars used on the recording.... I've been listening pretty close trying to "hear" the Fender 12 on there - I have not picked it out of the mix yet but I'm deconstructing and rebuilding it now. I'm in the middle of recording a N4N recreation of the song --- here's some early sketches of me working out the orchestration
I beat mapped the drums from the original zeppelin tune to create my time grid then programmed my own drums in (but kept Bonzo's time drift). I've just been adding instruments and tweaking the sound trying to zero in on the mix and production secrets as I build the arrangement. Here's where I'm at now.... still a long way to go.
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On 11/3/2012 at 6:27 PM, Dallas Knebs said:
near completed mix
Can you confirm where this came from? --- It does sound very much like the actual track (drum bass and one guitar) and it does indeed sound like this cycle continues through the early bridges (that feature brass and violins) underneath what we normally "hear" as the bridge... my only question is the tempos are different from the original (but the tuning isn't different) which would seem to not make sense unless this has been manipulated digitally to preserve the pitch.... otherwise this would have to be an alternate take?
If you've ever tried to play the bass part with the bridge section overlay it is very very hard to do --- and this answer the question to me why JPJ's bass only changes on some bridge parts and stays the same as the verses on others..... because the initial arrangement before brass and strings didn't have the bridge inserts/overlays....
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On 9/2/2019 at 3:53 AM, pageluvva said:
If I have a vote I'd say Down By The Seaside. It is such a beautiful and unique Zep tune and rarely covered. I'd love to hear what you could do with it. Keep us up to date.
Cool -- We decided to do both Seaside and Kashmir -- two at the same time.... Hoping these won't take 18 months!
The general process is basically to live with the song(s) - endless plays on repeat for weeks and weeks while studying drums scores, transcriptions, tutorials... any available resources that are out there and audit the track - literally note for note trying to find out what people get right and wrong... slow things down - isolate certain instruments using selective EQ settings etc... And we start recording scratch tracks, basically building the arrangement and the mix (while learning all the parts) as we go..... dialing in the sounds, working out all the mix and production trickery.... We may recording 50 or even 100 takes of any particular part as the project evolves and we get closer to figuring it out.... and when we're done we have a complete working arrangement of the song and mix that we sometimes will abandon (but use as a template) to re-record an entirely new version of the song yet again - sometimes with dozens of new takes per track.... Seaside is going to be really cool - there are not a lot of N4N covers out there - and nobody tries to N4N the piano when they play it..... (lots of the Seaside covers are "blocked" on YouTube.) Getting the Fx right will be tough... that's the biggest challenge I think. Totally excited to pull that off....
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10 hours ago, pageluvva said:
Everyone is on fire here and damn I love that voice. GREAT job. Really dig it.
Thanks man. We got really lucky with the vocals (last thing that was done). Clay has a really syrupy quality to his voice here just like Plant does... You gotta be fearless to tackle Robert's vocalizations because they are always pretty raw and very naked.... It's why I'm not singing this one - I just don't have that ability to let it hang out there like that. We really appreciate the support. Our next project is in discussion right now -- I'm leaning towards Down by The Seaside - others (including my wife) keep pushing for Kashmir.... I just like the challenge of "Seaside" because of that fantastic electric piano part. No quarter is another favorite of mine as well (also a great Electric Piano part).....
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At The Stairway Project we have completed another N4N Zeppelin cover - this time it's Ten Years Gone. The cover was recorded over a period of 18 months and we recently completed it after finding a really good volunteer vocalist who could bring out that Plant vocal vibe..... here it is. This was all done in a home studio. Hope you all enjoy.
For more information about the cover or The Stairway Project you can visit the site here: http://www.thestairwayproject.com/the-stairway-project-presents-ten-years-gone/
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try the delay pedal with a super short delay time (and feedback). You'll hear it simulated. Jimmy I think used an out of phase pickup selection on his tele - I have a fender guitar that is wired for an out of phase tone and you can hear it immediately.
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1 hour ago, AnotherNewMember said:
That's OK, maybe it should be "No one can remember if Spirit played Taurus Live at any event or venue that Zeppelin attended."
I haven't studied the docs at Scribd enough to be completely sure.I think, from what I've read, that the general consensus is that Taurus was not played live at any of the specific Zeppelin related dates - and that it is not officially alleged otherwise.
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2 hours ago, Balthazor said:
LOL. But seriously, helping a few hundred children learn and appreciate music is a worthy cause. But then again, there's always this:
Seems to me if you care about the children, then a lot more real good would be done by keeping money in Jimmy's hands than transferring it to the Randy California Project. Just sayin'.
Jimmy is known as "Led Wallet"... very tight fisted with his money. I once read (and it may be bullshit) that Jimmy actually asked the band to pitch in some money for drinks/snacks at their first jam. Not sure if that is myth or known truth but the fact that he's very very tight with his money is pretty well known.
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10 hours ago, AnotherNewMember said:
That is wrong, if one reads the docs posted at scribd it's clear that they included Taurus in their sets often in 1967, and probably (much) less frequently in 1968 and later.
What is interesting of course is if they played Taurus when they played the same venue as Zeppelin, I don't think they managed to prove that.How about this as a corrected point then:
- It is NOT ALLEGED that Spirit played Taurus Live at any event or venue that Zeppelin attended.
- That it seems to be a matter of record that at the events (just a few) that both bands presences can be verified, Spirit did not play "Taurus".
What's important here (as was later posted) is that it was suggested previously through the oral history or popular myth that Zeppelin watched Spirit perform "Taurus" night after night and that this was the circumstances that preceded this monumental theft.
I still think that there is no evidence of misrepresentation or deception on the part of Zeppelin in their testimony.
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16 minutes ago, Mercurious said:
The details of the jury ruling were reported as the facts at hand by the LA TImes, the newspaper of record involved here. As it was the news story that went out on the the LA Times/NY Times wire service (not an opinion piece or editorial, not something appearing in Rolling Stone or on TV) there should not have been conjecture in the reported facts of the verdict.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-led-zeppelin-copyright-20160623-snap-story.html
And - this from our favorite reporter at the trial:
Jimmy Page has testified that he owns 4329 records and 5882 CDs.
Page says on the stand that he has said before that he likes the band Spirit but "I mean I've liked a lot of bands to be honest with you."
The LA times is little more than a rag - but even if we take these statements as true fact (which I do) - I'm not seeing deception or lies. Why are some of you concluding that Zeppelin lied on the stand? I find it reasonable that access was possible - I find it "possible" the song was heard in some way shape or form -- in no way do I find that probable, nor do I find Zep's claims to the contrary necessarily untruthful and their claims of not remembering in any way a practice of deception.
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52 minutes ago, Mercurious said:
Just playing Devil's Advocate, here - Some points to why members are sticky about Page and Plant's recollections:
1) The jury "didn't buy" Led Zep's arguments that they did not have access, according to LA Times.
2) In an interview from the early years, Page was quoted talking about how much he liked Spirit.
3) Jimmy doesn't just own the debut Spirit, but 3 or 4 other spirit records. No proof was submitted as to when he obtained the records, though, as you mentioned.
But none of that is relevant. A jury of eight has decided that "Taurus" isn't similar to "Stairway", and prior to that the judge ruled that those common notes could not be the basis of copyright infringement. "Taurus" is an insignificant and incomplete piece of album filler, nothing more. Page may have heard it some point or other, he can't remember, but he certainly didn't steal it.
I suspect Jimmy owns pretty much every record from the era as a collector and that most of them were sent to him gratis by record companies. That the jury didn't "buy" some of Zeppelin's testimony is conjecture yes? I'm still trying to get a sense of what are agreed on facts or undisputed or proven facts.
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33 minutes ago, Mithril46 said:
i''m sorry that fibbery was taken as some sort of blanket opinion , because I said that Zep had rightfully won the case.
It has been said before, there are other much more flagrant examples of questionable origin in the Zep catalog.
What I am referring to is some of the rather odd replies Page or Plant gave. But I am not referring to or questioning
.0001% the artistic origin or validity of Stairway. Page in fact on the stand was far more relaxed and in good humor
than he is in most interviews. Look, this is not really about if Plant or Page heard Spirit in 69', or they didn't, or that
they played one song in their jams. All side issues.
Well I'm asking specifically what you think they said or was said as testimony that was lies?
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10 minutes ago, Mithril46 said:
What is being discussed here is very important, because although Zep quite rightly won this case, some of the fibbery
from the Zep side is a bit pretzel logic. I am still absolutely ASTOUNDED how this case got so far. Filed in LA, IMO
one the world's most spiritually desolate places( much fun to be had, though). Anyway shame this didn't happen in
the 70's, where surely Zep would have arranged a celebration party the likes of which has never been seen. In LA,
of course.
Well -- I'll say again -- what fibbery? And how do you draw that conclusion? In what way do you allow yourself to conclude that Zeppelin lied about anything here? What do you base that on? Are you disagreeing with what are now established facts? You can't just make a statement about lies without compelling evidence thereof. You shouldn't allow yourself the belief that there were lies without something compelling to support that belief. This isn't religion where you just get to believe whatever you want because of "feels"... Doing so is akin to being one of the long standing guys who have repeated ad nauseum over the years that Zeppelin watched Spirit perform "Taurus" live night after night --- turns out that was complete fiction - not only did they not really tour together, nor did Zeppelin ever really watch anyone who opened for them from the side of the stage, nor did Spirit ever play Taurus live ------- so give us something that we can either accept or argue against that has led you to believe there were lies from the Zeppelin camp.
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Why does there still seem to be confusion among the members here with respect to access and the possibility that Zep hadn't heard the song prior to writing STH? Am I wrong in my understanding that:
- Robert was at least passingly familiar with the "Fresh Garbage" cut and his influence brought the riff to the band to work up during a jam?
- Robert's familiarity was knowing the song from a compilation album.
- That "Fresh Garbage" is also on Spirit's album that contains "Taurus", but that there's no suggestion or evidence that Robert's access to "Fresh Garbage" equates to access to "Taurus".
Further:
- That although the band shared a bill with Spirit on two occasions, and there's evidence that points to Robert having attended a concert where Spirit played, that "Taurus" was not played at those concerts.
- That it is further established that Spirit did not play "Taurus" live until after STH was written - at least a decade after.
And
- That Jimmy Page has in his collection the Spirit album that contains "Taurus".
- That there is evidence to suggest that this album was acquired by Jimmy after STH was written -- decades after.
- That Jimmy's album collection is essentially a music archive and possessing an album among 1000's of others does not constitute access.
And to conclude
- That there is no evidence proving access within the critical time period, only the suggestion that access wasn't an impossibility.
- That the myth that Zeppelin watched Spirit perform "Taurus" night after night from the stage is completely busted.
I'm still very confused why members here insist that Page and Plant's denial of or recollection of even knowing or remembering much of anything about Spirit is somehow selective on their part or strategic with respect to this case. Can you imagine their lives? The demands on their time? The amount of people clamoring for a piece of them? The drugs and alcohol? The fallibility of memory? I bet Jimmy doesn't remember how to play half the Zeppelin catalog - that he'd have to woodshed for a long time to do so. I just don't see anything nefarious here at all. Am I missing something or are the facts above as I stated in the bullets correct?
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7 hours ago, JTM said:
Sorry Guys (and Strider) -- I just had to post this one last one in case you'd never heard of "Wallet Boy" and Chris Eliot's "Get a Life". from back in the day.
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4 hours ago, notfadeaway said:
I was inside the courtroom for part of the trial. http://thelosangelesbeat.com/2016/06/lawyers-in-led-zeppelin-case-ramble-on-in-stairway-to-heaven-trial/
Did you happen to find a guy's wallet?
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38 minutes ago, the chase said:
Great news for the boys!!
Did the jury mention anything about Strider forgetting his wallet?
Now that made me laugh.
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9 hours ago, Strider said:
I knew my post would be unpopular. Frankly, the only opinion of value at the moment is the jury's...and the judge's....
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But I seem to be the only one here who thinks it is a bad idea to run away from the idea that Led Zeppelin knew of Spirit before writing "Stairway to Heaven". I believe it should not matter. Do you see the Rolling Stones claiming ignorance of Chuck Berry, even though half their songs are based on his riffs?
There is no connection between Jimmy and Jones admitting they heard "Fresh Garbage" and their writing "Stairway to Heaven". One does not have anything to do with the other. With all the interviews Jimmy has given in the past where he mentions Spirit, a halfway decent lawyer would be able to take their current testimony and twist it enough to cause doubt in the jury's mind. Jones never went to a rock concert? Ok...I suppose that is feasible. But any non-fanboy could see how that might seem hard to believe.
Instead of acting afraid of any mention of Spirit, they should confront it head-on, secure in the knowledge that "Stairway to Heaven"'s greatness has nothing to do with "Taurus". Randy California does not own those notes, as Led Zeppelin has adequately proven by all the prior music samples exhibited. By going out of their way to disavow any knowledge of Spirit's existence, when previous interviews and performances suggest at least some awareness, it may give the jury the impression that Jimmy and Jones were not forthcoming in their testimony.
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Unless of course it's true -- "running away" isn't running away if you are not running away.... I'm fully willing to believe the testimony and the facts as they are being established. If Jones says "no", and because I know how Jams work, I'm fully willing to believe it. And it is also very very common that musicians get totally isolated and hear little or listen to little other music. Eddie Van Halen is famous for this -- he's hardly listened to anyone since the mid eighties and is virtually ignorant on contemporary musicians and guitar players.
I get that you have your skepticism -- you weigh the facts and hold a belief -- your belief here is that you have doubts about their truthfulness. You base that belief off of premises -- one of your premises was a certain disbelief that something played in a Jam that was similar to Fresh Garbage could happen without JPJ having heard that song before. I attacked (or attempted to explain) your premise - telling you how possible and actually how often that kind of thing can happen -- and that the premise therefore should be rejected from your argument that supports your belief that the Zep boys are being untruthful.... because it doesn't stand up -- it's not a compelling a argument - it doesn't stand up and is a very weak premise.
That doesn't mean the Zep boys are NOT Lying.... JPJ might be --- but in order to hold a valid belief there or conclude as such you have to have an argument with premises that support it. The argument that Fresh Garbage's similarity to a Jam proves prior knowledge because you can't wrap your head around the idea that these kinds of similarities happen all the time is just wrong - factually wrong - experientially wrong.....
Someone else mentioned a spy movie sounding bassline ---- and suggested that it could be possible that Fresh Garbage and the Zep Jam were inspired by the same source ergo have similar roots but are not a product of each other. I'll suggest that that argument is most likely key to understanding this whole case.
Small Example: You and I are sitting at a pub for drinks with friends -- talking about having a pot-luck BBQ. In the midst of the discussion the pub owner's wife pulls a fresh apple cobbler out of the oven that carries itself into the pub. Later on we are both at home - and we both have been told that each of us must bring a dessert to the BBQ ----- and while we are each sitting in our own kitchens miles apart from each other wondering what to cook - we both think "apple pie".... and the next day at the BBQ we both show up with apple pies. Now neither of us copied the other (though one of us might think the other did - especially since one pie looks nicer and is preferred by the group). And neither of us is aware or associates the genesis of our idea to bake pies to our experience smelling the cobbler in the pub. We end up having a great time at the BBQ anyway because pie is awesome and there's a shit ton of it for everyone!
Musical ideas and expressions are just like the idea to bake a pie. You might argue that in this case we are talking about the first pie --- that it's the pie itself which is a unique creative expression of a baked apple dessert. And I say that the idea to encrust apples in pastry could spontaneously happen simultaneously as well. It's not hard to conceive - you just have to understand the nature of creativity and the nature of ideas ---- in "words" this relates to theories and discussions of Mikhail Bakhtin idea of the dialogic. That every discussion is related to the history of every other discussion (a gross simplification). Music is the same way -- it's all inter-related.
So I guess to reiterate - it comes back to this Strider --- What do YOU BELIEVE? And what are the premises that support that belief? Because right now your premises don't validly support your doubts ---- so where do your doubts come from? If it's just something that you "feel" that give you cause to doubt then I'd argue you need to reject that way of thinking and believing. There is an old narrative that's being dismantled in this case (the prior exposure one that has dominated the historical discussion of this issue between Zep and Sprit). As established facts get presented to counter the old narrative that said Jimmy used to watch Spirit play Taurus from the side stage night after night, we realize two things -- that narratives are stories - and beliefs based on stories are dangerous because a good story just "feels true" but that doesn't make it "True".
Anyway -- nothing personal here -- but I just see you adding to the narrative with statements of belief that suggest facts that are themselves already disproved or that are unsupported by the evidence as it gets established.
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7 hours ago, Strider said:
Regarding the first part, I never thought Led Zeppelin toured with Spirit, nor did I ever hear it mentioned, even in the 1970s. Led Zeppelin's early touring partners have always been noted, from the time I first started reading about the band back in 1969, as Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly.
The second part is what I am having trouble believing and I wonder how the jury will react. I clearly recall Jimmy mentioning early on that he liked the band Spirit. Spirit, Kaleidoscope, Little Feat...those are the three bands that stick out in my mind as Jimmy mentioning in the press as bands he enjoyed.
Then to have the band jamming the riff from Fresh Garbage into the ALAIHY medley nearly every night on their first U.S. tour, and then claim they never heard that song, either? That is a bit far-fetched to me. Plus, it is so unnecessary. Admitting hearing "Fresh Garbage" is not proof that they also heard "Taurus". One could have heard one without the other. And you have to had stayed awake hearing "Taurus" before getting to the notes in question.
Considering much they were into music, some of JP's and JPJ's testimony sounds odd. What next...Jones claiming never to have heard of the Isley Brothers' "It's Your Thing", even though he played the riff nearly every time in the breakdown part of"Communication Breakdown"?
This just tells me that your opinion here is of very little value. If you've ever been in a band, or a touring band - you'd have the experience of having worked out all kinds of Jams and riffs that turned out to be existing songs --- A jam based on a riff is very easy to spontaneously create without knowing it already existed --- almost every single musician can tell you about the experience of working up things only to find out after the fact that there's a very similar or at times almost exactly the same song/riff/groove already out there. It's so common that I know world famous musicians that have had to scrap whole recordings after someone walked into a session and said - "hey - this song sounds like ______" -- I've literally seen them walk away from completed master tapes of finished material. It happens in music - it happens in comedy with jokes -- it happens in art/photography..... it happens -- it's the very nature of the creative process.
That liability is always present in the creative process.
It is true that our brains absorbs stuff unconsciously -- sometimes we hear stuff without knowing we've heard it so when it comes out in a jam (and you get that rush of excitement of having spontaneously created something cool) we are not aware that what we thought was a spontaneous creation actually was influenced by something rattling around in the unconscious. But isn't that the nature of creativity itself? Isn't that the nature of all creativity? --- That it's a derivative in some way of our experience in the world?
That's why the implications of this case are so wide ranging and fraught with real jeopardy -- because almost everything is a tiny bit derivative. Knowing that this motif has been used time and time again doesn't diminish Stairway or make it less creative -- it makes it part of a creative tradition -- in some ways it proves and validates it's originality because it is precisely a product of the creative process itself -- which is fully dialogic.
Anyway -- just some thoughts and maybe something to help you get beyond the idea that JPJ's claims or Jimmy's claims are far fetched here.
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I know this is an old thread but I can confirm specifically that there are 4 recorders on this track - A Bass recorder, and Alto recorder, a soprano, and a treble (or two sopranos). It's not too hard figuring this stuff out but it helps if you are familiar with Bach. Try following one part at a time. And yes live it was played with a Melotron. If you really listen you can hear JPJ's breath and vibrato as he lowers the intensity of his breath... you'll also note how this causes slight tuning issues.
Pamela Chelin
Stairway to Heaven solo cover
in Musician's Corner
Posted
Very nice - very nice. !!!