woz70
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Posts posted by woz70
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Looks suspiciously like a repro to me....
https://gotledblog.wordpress.com/the-presence-object/
From the article:
1) Originals: flat black paint. Repros: glossy or semi-gloss black paint.
That paint looks glossy to me. There are visible reflections in it.
2) Originals: very smooth sides and base; little or no imperfections. Repros: bulges and pits were prevalent, though not all that noticeable from a fair distance away; various flaws abound…brush marks from the paint, difficult to read etchings on the base, bulging top edge.
There are visible bulges, imperfections and brush marks in the photo, and the top edge is bulging too.
3) Originals: underneath the thin coat of paint, a flesh color appears IF a scratch or chip is not very deep; if deep then white shows through. Repros: only a white color shows through if scratched or chipped.
Bit hard to tell from the photo, but the various chips look quite shallow, and white.
I certainly wouldn't bid for it.
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On 11/22/2022 at 8:53 PM, dpat said:
I always assumed it was John Paul Jones on keyboards recreating the orchestral sounds for Friends and Kashmir. Or was it an actual orchestra on each song? If so, what orchestras/string sections performed on them? (and... why no credit?).
Rock on...
Friends has a real string section.
Kashmir has real strings and some brass instruments too, as well as the mellotron. If I recall correctly, JPJ's score for Kashmir went up for auction a few years back.
In both songs the strings can be heard gliding from one note to another - an effect that is fiendishly difficult to recreate on a keyboard with todays tech, and simply wouldn't have been possible in 1970. Far easier, and cooler, to use the real thing. (No two string players will glide from one note to another at the same speed, or in exactly the same way. Put a bunch of string players together and get them all to glide from one note to another, all slightly differently, and you get that glorious sound..... lush! ). They would have been brought in as session musicians and paid for the job, probably an hour or two's work. No reason to credit them.... in fact in some ways it's better not to. People with their name on a recording have a tendency to get litigious if they feel that the fee they were paid at the time was insufficient in comparison to the monetary success of the recording in subsequent years....
I think Viram Jasani may have kicked up a bit of a stink over his part in Black Mountainside, and there may have then been an element of 'sod you - here's your fee, play the parts and then go away' after that.
How many of the records Page appears on in the 60's was he credited for?
6 hours ago, jsj said:If I recall correctly real strings were attempted on Kashmir but the idea must have been dropped
You may be thinking of the sessions where Friends and Four Sticks were recorded with the Bombay orchestra that eventually ended up on the deluxe reissue of CODA.
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I wish i could say "All the right notes, just not necessarily in the right order....", but it's worse than that 😕.
Not good.
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2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:
Maybe personal listening experience but these two masterings sound very different to me, as do all the individual remasters.
I've only listened in detail to The Ocean, so can't really comment on the rest of the album.
Reading more widely on other forums, there seems to be a bit of a consensus that the Barry Diament mastering of HOTH is the most pleasing to listen to, which is interesting.
I've listened quite a lot to the updated PG and I'm not a great fan of the John Davis version. It's lacking in bottom end compared to the '90 (especially Kashmir), which is my preferred listen.
On cursory listening to the rest of the remasters the only real revelation is ITTOD, which to my ears is a vast improvement. I still think that album could do with an actual remix though.
2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:That's something Davis definitely improved upon. The soundscape on his versions sound vastly broader.
Not my experience (definitely not enough to say 'vastly'), but like I've said I've not listened in detail.
The whole subject of 'stereo enhancement' is a bit arcane, and not something I have a great deal of knowledge about.
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18 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:
Can you explain what you mean by this? Is the Davis not a true remaster or is it only an EQ job?
The 2014 mastering job remastered the original stereo mix tape of the album. If you bought the standard remastered album and the deluxe edition too, you've bought exactly the same content twice. The only difference is the extra content on the deluxe version.
All of the 2014 remasters are the same - the original album content (which is remastered) on the standard edition and the deluxe edition are identical.
Yes, John Davis did a 'true' remaster.... and eq is one of the (few) tools that mastering engineers use. As none of us have heard (or are likely to hear) the raw stereo mix of the album - pre mastering - it's impossible to say which other tools he has used as well.
The fact that the 1990 remaster and the 2014 remaster sound so similar is down to two very good engineers using similar tools, making similar choices and ending up with very similar results.
The very nature of mastering a recording is subtlety... Enhancing what is already there, and making translatable to as many playback systems as possible. In some instances a slight eq tweak is all that's necessary.
if you want to hear huge differences or broad stroke changes then you need a re-mix. For some of Led Zeppelin's songs a remix is simply not practical, and the results would be wildly different from the recordings that we all love.
(Whole Lotta Love is a really good example of this - the final mix we hear cannot be achieved simply by bringing up the faders and adding a bit of reverb/compression/eq here and there. A lot of the sounds going on in the sonic-wave section were created by realtime manipulation of an echoerec (or similar) during the mix down process - those sounds aren't there on the multitrack tape! - and that sort of thing, literally mix down as performance, is just unrepeatable. I suspect it's one of the reasons why we'll never see a 5.1 mix of the original albums, and especially not LZII).To be absolutely clear: the tools available to a mastering engineer are eq, compression (single-band and multi-band), limiting, and 'stereo enhancement'. That's it.
It's not within the remit of a mastering engineer to change the levels of any element of a finished mix - which is all they deal with - that's up to the mix engineer. They can alter our perception of the loudness of certain elements using compression and equalisation - for instance: subtle compression can increase our perception of 'detail' in a recording... it can make quieter sounds in a quiet section of music more apparent (simply by increasing the volume of a quiet section in relation to the surrounding louder sections) but it cannot change the balance of any of those sounds; eq can enhance certain frequencies that our ears are more attuned to to make guitar, for instance, sound more 'forward' in a song - but, again, the guitar hasn't been 'turned up' in relation to the sounds around it. Certain frequencies within the guitar sound have been manipulated to make it appear louder.
Learning a bit about how our ears work, how our brains interpret the sounds we hear and accentuate certain frequency ranges (mainly the ranges where the understandability of the human voice lies), and a bit about psycho-acoustics is not only really fascinating, but really helpful in beginning to appreciate some of the concepts of perceived loudness. -
20 hours ago, paul carruthers said:
Maybe I'm trying to listen too hard, but do any of the recent remasters of HOTH try to muffle the telephone in the background? I only ask because the remaster on Youtube, with the blue album cover, the phone doesn't seem to be as loud as some of the 1990s remasters.... 😆
I've had a good A/B listen to the 1990 remaster and the 2014 remaster of The Ocean (only via spotify, as I don't own it - so a slight disclaimer there....) and I honestly don't hear a vast difference.
There are some quite subtle tonal differences between the two. It sounds like the 2014 master has a lower noise floor (less hiss) than the 1990 master. and there's been some reduction in both mains-hum and print-through, but once you tune into that telephone ringing it's pretty much the same on both to my ears.
Also, after listening to both back-to-back I think I prefer the 1990 mastering, in spite of the hiss, hum and print-through.... controversial? Anyone else agree? It might be 'stranger to change' syndrome, or just overfamiliarity with the 1990, but it just sounds a little more 'rounded' to me 😕 .
Worth mentioning that standard cover and the blue cover deluxe edition use the same mastering for the original album content - the deluxe edition is not a separate beast. -
2 hours ago, jsj said:
Has there ever been a version of how the song originally was before the middle guitar solo was inserted? That’s what I’d like to hear
There was a solo recorded at the original tracking session. It's very rough, and obviously meant as just a placeholder. The solo that we hear today was very much the best take.
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19 hours ago, Strider said:
Since no one else has brought this up, what is that noise at the 3:40 mark of "Heartbreaker"? Right between the end of the solo and the start of the last verse. Is it Jonesey's bass or Jimmy's guitar that is so hot that it is picking up their fingers sliding over the frets? It's on the original and the remaster.
It's on the bass track, and only on the bass track..... but it's not from the bass that appears in the final song...
Of the available multitracks (four songs from LZII) Heartbreaker is a bit of a weird one, and not set out as you'd normally expect.
The track listing is:
1: a 'room' recording of the entire band playing the backing track. The Bass & Guitar sound a bit distant (more 'roomy') and the kit sounds more up-front and bright , so it might be a room mic for cymbals etc., or it could be a blend of mics sent to one track. Hard to tell really
2: Bass guitar - a really overdriven sound with either a light tremolo or being sent through a leslie cabinet, and compressed within an inch of its life.
3: 1st electric guitar
4+5: Drums
6: 2nd electric guitar
7: Vocal and 2nd guitar solo
8: Main Vocal
The bass in the 'room' track (1) isn't quite the same as the actual bass track (2), so the bass has obviously been overdubbed/re-recorded after the backing track was recorded live.
'The sound' is almost definitely the original bass line, being played back through the studio monitors and being picked up by the bass amp microphone while Jones records his slightly different overdubbed line.
The iconic guitar solo is a completely separate recording, and was obviously edited in after the song was complete. -
5 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:
Maybe we can determine how far away that plane was on Black Country Woman.
You could make yourself some serious money if you came up with a way to do that.
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On 10/13/2022 at 8:33 PM, Archetype said:
I thought the slider was up for the microphone on John Paul Jones’ bass amp and it was picking up Jimmy’s guitar from somewhere across a large recording studio
That's an understandable reaction.
Let's figure out how big that recording studio would have to be for this to be true.
The delay from guitar sound to echo is somewhere between a quarter and a third of a second - let's call it 0.3 seconds, which is nicely between those two numbers.
The speed of sound in air is about 343 metres per second.
You can calculate distance travelled by multiplying speed by time.
So:
Distance = Velocity x Time
343 metres per second x 0.3 seconds = 102.9 metres
That's over 112 yards, if you like feet and inches.
That is one hell of a studio.
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7 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:
Just realized the same reverb effect is on the beginning of Gallows Pole, panned almost exactly like WLL.
Babe I'm gonna leave you - same
You shook me - guitar centre panned, reverb L
Your time is gonna come - acoustic guitar R, reverb L (harder to hear)
Lemon song - vocal centre, reverb R
Bring it on home - guitar L, reverb R, harmonica & vocals R - Their reverb L. This one's cool because you can hear that the intro is 'wet' (with reverb), but with the last harmonica blow the reverb is faded out making it 'dry', and the main riff comes in really in your face! Nice touch.
Immigrant song - intro electric guitar L, reverb R
Stairway - Acoustic guitar R, reverb L
Ten years gone - more subtle, but same deal.
Sick Again - really obvious bounce from Guitar L to reverb R
For Your Life - guitar L, reverb R
It's used a lot - enough to almost be a trademark of Page's production methods. Now you've heard it......
19 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:Considering this, did you notice the "click" at the four second mark of Heartbreaker was removed on Davis' remaster?
Hadn't ever noticed before. It's not on the multitrack, so maybe introduced at mix down (?). Clicks are pretty easy to remove, especially digitally, and their removal doesn't cause anything additional to be added.
If you put the 90's remaster and the latest one into a DAW and lined them up you might find that the new one is couple of milliseconds shorter after the 4s mark!
I've not listened heavily to the latest batch of remasters TBH. They've had my money twice for the same content already....
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On 10/10/2022 at 10:18 AM, jsj said:
The unplugging of the guitar jack plug after a solo in ten years gone
Took a while to find this, but it's at 4:54-4:57.
Not a guitar jack being unplugged (or plugged in) in my opinion - this is a buzz/hum followed by a very quiet click. A jack being unplugged is thump or a loud click, then a buzz/hum. A jack being plugged in is a buzz/hum, then a thump or loud click.
This sounds like the sort of ground loop buzz/hum you get from a plugged-in guitar when you let go of the strings, and then grab them again (grounding the guitar to you again!) ready to play.On 10/10/2022 at 10:18 AM, jsj said:an iffy keyboard note in misty mountain hop
Someone will have to timestamp this one. I suspect this will turn out to be an extreme bit of nit-picking.
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On 10/9/2022 at 6:54 PM, gibsonfan159 said:
Recently noticed a loud electrical ground hum at the beginning of Black Dog, which wasn't even removed on the deluxe version.
Getting rid of electrical hums comes under the banner of audio restoration - not really the remit of a remaster.
Getting rid/reducing that kind of artefact is also a balancing game - it's payoff between reduction and the addition of extra artefacts caused by the reduction process/algorithm.
In the case of Black Dog your 'loud' is very subjective. It is noticeable, but you have to listen pretty hard for it, as it's masked by the far louder sounds around it. If you're listening to it loud enough to hear really well on headphones, you're probably going to struggle with your hearing later in life.... 😕The mains hum at the beginning of The Battle of Evermore is far more noticeable, even for someone not listening particularly hard, and at a reasonable listening level..
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Just now, Ian Smith said:
But I gotta ask, that sound, do you as someone who clearly knows their stuff like it? Personally I wish I could unhear it.
Love it.
It's gritty and adds space and texture to the guitar. The guitar one side, reverb the other choice makes it really 3D - especially on headphones - and gives the feel of the guitar sound almost travelling from one ear to the other.
Hearing unexpected details/depth in music is a bit of a Pandora's box moment - you can't put the lid back on....
But you listened to it for 40 years and just enjoyed the texture then.... nothing has changed, except you've noticed a detail.
Put it on the Hi-Fi nice and loud and let the sound wash over you! -
11 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:
But which track is it on? The more I listen the more I think it's page's slide overdub track picking up the echo. But I could be wrong.
It's not on a track.
It's added deliberately (as a buss effect), at mixdown. This means that at playback (during the mix process) part of the signal is sent to a reverberation device which is then sent back to the mix (to add the reverb) and the whole lot is printed to the 'Master' tape. It's not a part of the multitrack recordings.
It's categorically not the slide guitar track (I have heard each track of the multitrack recordings separately). -
On 10/9/2022 at 6:06 PM, gibsonfan159 said:
Regarding mixing errors and whatnot, I've always wondered what the deal is with Marino's 1994 mastering of the first album with the stereo pan being flipped. Wonder if that was a final mastering/pressing "oops".
Probably because.....
Stereo recording was still pretty new in '69, and the standard for L & R on a tape hadn't been set in stone. If it wasn't marked which was L & R on the tape box and Marino just stuck it on his usual machine where L & R had been standardised for well over a decade you get an inverted image..... He should have done an A/B with a vinyl copy (schoolboy error), but I think that first run of CD's was done as a knee jerk to the new format. The modus operandi would have been "slap it on one of these fangled CD things. It probably won't sell much, so do it quick and dirty so we (Warners) can make a buck or two if it does sell". (If I recall correctly, Plant had already sold his rights to the recordings at this point, so wouldn't have a got a penny until the 1990 remasters anyway).On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said:The vocal bleed in "Babe, I'm Going to Leave You".
Couldn't have been taken out without re-recording the whole song - It's spill into either the acoustic guitar mic (most probable) or a drum mic. Plant may have been in a vocal booth, but he was obviously really belting that particular take, before vocals were seperately re-recorded. Necessity rather than choice, I think.
On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said:The tape hiss at the beginning of Led Zeppelin III.
Is not tape hiss. It's the sound of an echoplex feeding back - an effect that would have been added at mixdown, so deliberately put there. Not a 'leave it in'.
On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said:The drum pedal squeak in "Since I've Been Loving You".
Not the only song to feature it, but certainly the most noticeable. Ludwig Speed King kick pedals are notorious for the squeak, and it's hard to stop them doing it - to the point that some people say 'if it squeaks, it's working properly'.
More a case of 'it's simply what the pedal does, and it's hard to make it stop. Plus it's Bonzo's favourite' than a 'nah. leave it'.On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said:The telephone in "The Ocean".
I would guess that there are two probable sources for this - Overdubbed guitar solo, or drum mics (my choice would be this). The reason was probably someone leaving a studio door open somewhere.
The reason I think it's the drum mics is this:
If you listen closely to the recording the drum sound goes from really dry and close mic'ed sounding in the majority of the song, to wide and reverberant during the solo. This would have been done with a distant 'ambient' mic (distance = space/depth), further from the drums and - more importantly - possiibly in an adjacent room or corridor, maybe near the office/front desk where the phone would be.
If the phone rang during the take that was 'The One', and that ambient mic was absolutely essential to the sound of the guitar solo section there would have been no way to get rid of it, without redoing the whole song..... and hoping that the next take was as good as the 'magic' one. So 'leaving it in' was more 'ah shit' than 'I wonder if people will notice and mythologise it in decades to come'. Necessity rather than choice.
Same deal if it had been during the guitar solo overdub -
'That was the one!'
'But the phone....'
'But that was the one. I'm not doing it again!'.....
All the other examples given are great demonstrations of a band playing live and together in a studio (or the garden) - really fun things to leave in a recording.
As Autumn Moon says:
'It sets the mood perfectly, would be a crime to remove it.' -
9 hours ago, Ian Smith said:
Damn, great info, many thanks. Still can not understand why anyone would add that to a recording but I love knowing what it is. Much appreciated woz.
Recording studios are (generally) small-ish and pretty non-reverberant spaces, so if you want something to sound like it was recorded in a bigger room or space you add artifical (or sometimes natural) reverberation. Even the rooms that Zep used that had space for a great drum sound weren't particularly reverberant. It's not want you want in a studio.
You won't find very many recordings at all that haven't had some sort of reverb added. Your ears are so used to hearing it, that if you ever do a recording that hasn't had some sort of reverb added you'd think it sounds really odd and 'flat'.
In the late 60's/early 70's stereo recordings were becoming a lot more common, and the idea of presenting a natural 'sound-stage' was evolving - slowly.
We are now really used to hearing recordings presented pretty much as you'd see a band on stage - drums, bass and vocals in the centre, guitars either side and the ambience/reverberation all around. Early stereo recordings might have the drums and bass in the right ear, guitars in the left and vocals centre - listen to Revolver/Sgt Peppers era Beatles, The first two Hendrix albums, even Zep I. Putting the reverb in just the left or right ear was another one of the choices that were made back in the day when Left, RIght or Centre were your only choices at mixdown. -
19 hours ago, Ian Smith said:
Had the album cranked last night with great headphones and Whole Lotta Love came on and maybe for the first time in 40 years I noticed the noise in the background over the main riff. Is it a cymbal? Some sort of bleed? It is off beat and I can not unhear it.
I checked my book Zeppelin; All The Songs and no mention of it. Any expert here know anything about what that is?
As always, thanks.
18 hours ago, Ian Smith said:In the right channel exactly. I too wonder why that was left in. Especially since it is off beat. Kinda cool I guess. Part of Zep's mystique. Thanks
It wasn't 'left in'.
It was put in, quite deliberately, as part of the mixing process - it wasn't recorded on the multitrack tape. The sound is a plate reverb (literally a large plate of steel in a box with a speaker attached at one end and a mic the other - they were ridiculously expensive devices at the time). The same reverb is used on Plant's vocal throughout the song.
There's quite a lot of that seemingly odd placement of effects throughout Zep's albums.
The same effect happens in 'Babe I'm gonna leave you' on Zep I. Guitar one side, reverb other side. Once you've spotted it the first time, the more you'll hear it!
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29 minutes ago, MarcosMJJ said:
My biggest curiosity is to know, which concerts were recorded in multitracks of all the years.
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1 hour ago, Bozoso73 said:
But what about the rumors of brinning in other drummers? I believe Cozy Powell and Barrie Barlow were called in to try out IIRC. . Were they really trying to go on and if so would it really have worked?
They were exactly three weeks away from the beginning of a planned US tour when Bonzo died. Cancelling that tour must have been pretty expensive (insurance notwithstanding).... Perhaps they were just looking at ways of fulfilling the already booked dates (in an 'oh shit we're contracted to do this' kind of way)?
Grief does terrible things to people, and thinking rationally can be really hard after a loss. The unthinkable actually happening can make you do unthinkable things.
I'm sure the idea of casting about for a replacement must have been a knee-jerk reaction - especially so soon after the loss of Keith Moon, and the way The Who had dealt with that.
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4 hours ago, paul carruthers said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the "back to basics" approach was because they only booked the studio to record Presence for only a few weeks--or something along those lines. I always thought that was the main reason for the limited "range" on the album, not as much time as other records to sit down & try to create a lot of complex arrangements....
Led Zeppelin never spent extended amounts of time in recording studios. They're really expensive places to be, and you don't want to be working out arrangements in a recording studio whilst the clock is ticking (especially if you're as thrifty with your cash as Page has been reported to be! He didn't get called Led Wallet for nothing) - that's what you do in a much cheaper rehearsal studio long before you book recording time. If you read the article I linked to, you'll see this is exactly what they did for Presence. I think the whole 'stripped down' approach was just a way of expressing the way the songs, and the band, felt at the time - a bit raw around the edges.
The ideal for going into a recording studio is to be ridiculously prepared, get set up as rapidly as possible (so that band members don't get bored, stoned, drunk etc.).
Then, get recordings of the basic tracks in as few takes as possible (to keep it spontaneous and fresh), move on to another song if one isn't gelling on that day, pick the takes you're going to spend time overdubbing extra parts onto, and get everyone else to go away while you do it (to keep the pressure down).
Presence being recorded and mixed in 18 days isn't terribly unusual (often albums get mixed in different studios, and a while after the sessions, just because the producer/engineer might have a room or studio they really know or like to mix in. But again, - if you've got the time booked in a studio already, and you've paid for it....) - it just shows that the band was well prepared when they went into the recordings.Presence was quite unique for Zep, as it was only the third time the band had recorded an entire albums worth of material in one place (and the second album to be recorded entirely in one studio). The first was Led Zeppelin I (recorded even more quickly), and the second was the run of shows in MSG that became TSRTS.
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1 hour ago, hummingbird69 said:
I'm not going to mince words with you over what is and what will never be an acoustic track and as far as Jimmy's issues at the time, Even though none of us could be there I know the story has been run through personal recollections which were overblown and exaggerated beyond the everyday in's and outs because that's what people do.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Who's mincing words? Here's what the original post says:
6 hours ago, Emilr1971 said:Presence was the only album not to feature piano and keyboards of any kind in addition to not feature acoustic guitar in none of the tracks...
It's quite explicit - acoustic guitar. Not 'an acoustic song'.
Candy Store Rock has a very audible acoustic guitar strumming all the way through. It's an indisputable fact.
You say:5 hours ago, hummingbird69 said:Having a tiny bit of acoustic guitar in one song is not the same thing as writing an acoustic track and I think that's more to the point of the OP.
but that's clearly not what he's saying - he doesn't mention an acoustic song, just acoustic guitar.
'In Through The Out Door' has no purely acoustic tracks either (but there is an acoustic guitar happily jangling along in 'Fool In The Rain'), but he doesn't say 'Presence is the only other album not to contain acoustic guitar', does he?
I think his meaning is quite clear. -
46 minutes ago, hummingbird69 said:
This is evidence of why Jimmy took a back seat approach to ITTOD.
I think his substance use issues were far more of a compelling reason for the back seat for ITTOD.
Jones says in the article that Jimmy was already running a 'different schedule' to everyone else during the writing/rehearsal for Presence. In '75.
52 minutes ago, hummingbird69 said:Also, Having a tiny bit of acoustic guitar in one song is not the same thing as writing an acoustic track and I think that's more to the point of the OP.
There are two guitar tracks in 'Candy Store Rock (other than the solo) - one electric, one acoustic...
That means the acoustic guitar is 20% - one fifth - of the song.
That's hardly a 'tiny bit'.
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It was all down to the way the writing process happened after Plant's car crash in Rhodes, and being in tax exile for most of his recovery.
This is a good(ish) article on the album:
https://www.loudersound.com/features/how-led-zeppelin-made-presence
Key section:
....With most of the material finished by the time Jones and Bonham arrived at the end of the month, time originally booked at SIR Studios in Hollywood for writing and rehearsal was used mainly to finesse what Page and Plant had already come up with. Work described by Page as “gruelling” because, he said, “nobody else really came up with song ideas. It was really up to me to come up with all the riffs, which is probably why [the songs were] guitar-heavy. But I don’t blame anybody. We were all kind of down.”
Also...Everybody says with such authority that Presence features 'no acoustic guitar'... but if you listen - not even particularly carefully - to Candy Store Rock, you can hear an acoustic guitar strumming away in your right ear.
Object
in Led Zeppelin Master Forum
Posted · Edited by woz70
Seems like the original poster can't decide if they want to buy it or are selling it.
Sounds dodgy as f**k to me. 😕