pluribus
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Posts posted by pluribus
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50 minutes ago, JTM said:
Van Halen (1) wasn't released until 1978 so who knew EVH in 77. I thought the title was directed at the Eddie at the Garden Tapes.
Listen to This Eddie wasn’t released until 1984, when Van Halen was huge. Far more likely to have the bootleg be about a current hitmaker who had made negative comments about the band’s live ability than for the title to be about a record producer from the 1960s. On top of the fact that the Eddie title doesn’t even make sense as it relates to Kramer. “Listen to this”, for what? To hear how good the recording sounds? That’s a stretch. Van Halen had specifically talked trash on Page’s live ability, and if you got in a time machine back to 1984 and said “I’m a big Eddie fan”, everyone from children to housewives would know that you were referring to Eddie Van Halen.
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2 hours ago, Strider said:
Because the Eddie quotes weren't made public until after the bootleg came out.
I think the timeline still fits with Van Halen. The Eddie bootleg was released 1984-1985 (according to discogs and bootlegpedia), and the Van Halen quote about Page was in Guitar World, January 1981 (according to wiki).
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20 minutes ago, Strider said:
And for the millionth time, "Listen to this, Eddie" was not named in reference to Eddie Van Halen.
Why so sure?
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On 10/30/2018 at 8:40 PM, porgie66 said:
Ha, ok...unless someone posts it up at dime or TD.
It's uuuuuuup.
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9 hours ago, zepster1979 said:
I've checked and the new BH title on the Golden Eggs is based upon source #4 (a stereophonic source that was released years ago by the Beelzebub CDR solely and used by Cobra on their mixdown years back) and is completed by source #3 (Mud Dogs) and source #5 (Tarantura 1997). Looks like it is a different mix than Cobra's and keeping in mind of what the label did with previous version, it should be one to get.
Have you compared it to Empress Valley “Cobra” source mix from the box set, or Winston Remasters Great Love Affair? Is it a clone of one of those? I think those are the only mixes based around that source (stereo Source 4 aka Source 5)
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10 hours ago, porgie66 said:
Thanks for clarifying, I knew you could. 👍🏼
😎
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27 minutes ago, porgie66 said:
Wow! That's completely different than Brannons info. Now I'm confused!
Brannon refers to Source 4 and Source 5 based on his definition of what each source’s first appearance was. What he calls Source 5, most people refer to as Source 4, the Tarantura “new” source from the 90s. It wasn’t until Source 5 appeared in the 2000s that people realized that parts of that one had been used as a splicing source on bootlegs before the Tarantura Source 4 came out.
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1 hour ago, Xolo1974 said:
The more I explore this matter, the more bloody confusing it gets 😁 @pluribus @porgie66. I managed to download from guitars 101 the EV 9 disc release from last year.
I’ve listened to what they call the ‘Cobra source’ and I’m not that impressed. Doesn’t sound as good as the YouTube post above.
The EV release also has a TMOQ alternate source. God knows what that is. Also an Antrabata source
EV's Cobra source is Source 5, TMOQ alternate source is Source 3, and Antrabata source is Source 4.
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3 hours ago, porgie66 said:
Toshiro! So if the Golden Eggs version is just a rip of the Doinker Sweeter Blueberry version...would it be source 3 or source 5?
If it is the Doinker version, then it’s Source 3. The problem with Doinker’s version is that it didn’t sound as good as the other low generation versions of Source 3. Kind of muffled on the top end for some reason.
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15 hours ago, Xolo1974 said:
You’ve actually answered my question. So has any release primarily used a combo of sources 2 and 3? I have the latest Graf Zeppelin release on the way. As it’s third disc it has the vinyl rip of the rubber Dubber recording. As for discs one and two not sure which source they used. So far my go to is the Eat a Peach version....but to be honest I don’t like it. It sounds too shrill and dry to me - almost like a soundboard (assuming this is primarily source 1).
Eat a Peach is a mix of Source 1 from the Neutral Zone CDs, and Source 1 from Empress Valley, including the splices EV did to other sources.
There aren’t any mixes of Sources 2 with Source 3 probably because Source 3 is pretty much complete and Source 2 is only a handful of songs, most of which are incomplete. Source 5 sounds much closer to the sound of Source 3. That mix (plus some Source 1) are what the Cobla/Cobra bootlegs are.
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The reason there is no “definitive” version of Blueberry Hill is because there are so many ways to mix the sources. Source 1 and Source 3 are most common, followed by Source 5.
Source 2 sounds nice, but is incomplete and only on vinyl, which makes it pointless to mix with. Sources 4 and 6 are less good, but are the only ones to feature the complete band introduction, so get used for that one part. Source 4 is complete, and Source 6 misses the last couple of songs. I don’t think Source 6 has even been released anywhere on bootleg.
Source 1: TMQ Vinyl (the original bootleg to use the name “Live On Blueberry Hill”), mono source first put out on vinyl and then later released 20 years later on CD from original tapes used to make the vinyl, via the LOBH Neutral Zone CDs. Empress Valley released the pre-bootleg tapes in their box set. The EV tapes have the most tape from the source, but don’t sound as good, probably due to age.
Source 2: “Live at the Los Angeles Forum 9-4-70” - incomplete stereo source but Rubber Dubber. Only found on vinyl.
Source 3: Stereo source used on Cobla/Cobra CDs. The whole show, but spliced with other sources to fill tape cuts.
Source 4: Mono source released on Tarantura CDs from the 1990s. It’s complete, but is not as good as the other sources.
Source 5: Stereo source that was released on Tarantura 2000 box set.
Source 6: Released online years ago. Incomplete. Not as good sounding as 1,2,3,5.
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9 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:
So what was the date for this?
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On 9/12/2018 at 8:23 PM, gibsonfan159 said:
Nitpicking Page 6/14/1977 Madison Square Garden, NY (Net Source)
The final show at Madison Square Garden. Do they carry the momentum from the previous night and go out on a high note? My source is the "NS-Net Source" that's available on Black Beauty...
TSRTS- Excellent tempo shows they've come to conquer tonight....
Sick Again- Keeping the fast tempo for this. Excellent intro. It's almost going too fast....
OTHAFA- Page keeps that uptempo going....
SIBLY- He launches into the intro quickly, missing the usual emotion that puts you in the mood. 0:26-:33, excellent phrase. 0:45-0:56, he's rushing this big time..
Final Assessment: One word- Impatient. Most hurried Sick Again, SIBLY, and BronYaur Stomp I've ever heard.The version you used as a reference (net source on BB site) runs much too fast. At least a whole step. Has a noticeable effect on how the band’s performance sounds. The TCOLZ version runs at the right speed.
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11 hours ago, SteveAJones said:
SAJ edited to add: I've just pulled up Reseda Park on Google maps, but it doesn't seem to be a match given the proximity of those homes in the background. This is possibly somewhere in Encino but unable to match it.
That's the Balboa Soccer Fields on Balboa in Encino. Bangers/Dark Horse is 3-4 miles away, down Balboa>Burbank>Reseda.
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Pre-beard at Bron-Yr-Aur in May 1970. By Bath in June 1970 he had the beard.
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52 minutes ago, Bonzo_fan said:
True, and Bonham was using a new kit in '77 as well, so Jones' Alembic wasn't the only equipment change from '75.
Exactly. And remember, the sound coming from the soundboard was a direct feed, with no speakers involved. Think about that. If you have ever listened to a bass-heavy album on computer speakers vs a proper home stereo setup, you know what I mean. The band was running an absolutely massive sound system in 1977 (check the preshow pics from Seattle 1977). All of those large speakers and subwoofers are what hit the audience. So, that "thin" Alembic bass and Bonham's kick drum on the soundboard sounded MUCH different when they got pushed through those speakers.
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3 hours ago, Bonzo_fan said:
I remember reading somewhere, can't remember if it was here, that the 1975 soundboards were recorded on reel-to-reel tapes, whereas the 1977 soundboards were recorded on cassette tapes, and that that accounts for the difference in sound. Sounds plausible to me, not sure if it's true...
I don't think anybody really knows the answer to this, besides those who truly are in the know. We can listen to these recordings as much as we want, and make deductions based on cuts, or certain qualities of the recording, but the reality is that there are about a dozen things that can affect how a soundboard recording will sound, most of which have to do with the sound rig itself. The band's sound changed every single tour, so naturally the soundboards will sound different as well, regardless of the media that was used.
The interesting thing here is that the Cleveland 1977 soundboard is a one-off, made by a venue member who plugged in his own cassette deck to the board, via a patch provided to him by the soundcrew. Yet, put Cleveland side by side with the 1977 soundboards from New York, Landover, or Fort Worth, and there really isn't that much difference. The Cleveland recording we all know so well doesn't sound worlds different from those other soundboards from the 77 tour, and yet those other boards were presumably made using the soundcrew's own professional equipment. Which says to me that the recordings we are hearing have less to do with the media recorded to (cassette vs reel to reel) as they do with the actual feed coming from the board. There are dozens of variables that are involved. Microphones, preamps, compressors, limiters, effects, the board itself.
Just give a listen to a modern soundboard from a band like Pearl Jam or from any number of bands who have allowed soundboard patches. A lot of these recordings sound "flat" or compressed, while others sound nice and open. And yet these are all being made in high resolution digital with very nice equipment. So, again, it's not the media being recorded to, it's the larger rig that matters most.
Keep in mind, the priority for the soundcrew was to run a sound rig that was as good as it could possibly be for the crowd listening to it at the concert. The soundboard recording wasn't a priority for any other reason than to make the band's own reference copies. If they cared about documenting the shows in "best" quality, they would've lugged around a multitrack to every show, which we know that they didn't do.
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19 minutes ago, Bozoso73 said:
Hi out there:) Did they have any shows that were cancelled in FLA during the 75 tour??
Yes. The West Palm Beach show on March 8 was cancelled. Check the events section in the timeline on the official zep site. There is a copy of the letter regarding the cancelled show.
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I really don't think so. Conspiracy Theory came out just as the internet communities really started getting serious about documenting the official live history of shows and tapes, so it really was one of those rare shows that slipped through the cracks. Kind of like how the Dallas shows were thought to take place on different dates, or that there was a second date in Pittsburgh. Online tour itineraries were still full of errors about a lot of shows. There are still rumors about extra/cancelled shows in the itineraries from most years. I think the past 5-10 years has seen a ton of cleanup in that regard, with fans having checked posters, advertisements, and gone to libraries or online newspaper archives to confirm/disprove individual concert dates. Lots of cool websites up now too. Royal-orleans, ledzeppelin-reference, theyearofledzeppelin, the official site. It wasn't long after Conspiracy Theory came out that ticket stubs and newspaper articles were found. The only other show that has been rumored was from Austin 1975, but that show was disproven by lack of ticket stubs, lack of newspaper articles, no posters, and even a testimonial from a fan who was at University of Austin at the time who confirms that no such concert could've happened in Texas without him knowing about it.
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11 hours ago, porgie66 said:
Thanks, appreciate the kind words. It may be that he thought was a low gen share but it was simply the Neutral Zone source. Personally, I love the sound of the Cobra boot for this show best. eat A Peach is cool in terms of completeness and editing is pretty good but the vibe of the Cobra release is very lively and raw. Can't remember what source that is and who else used it. I'd have to consult Brannon's site.
The Cobra source is great too. That's the stereo one with the girl saying "Robert Plant get over here" before Whole Lotta Love or one of the encores I think.
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10 hours ago, zepster1979 said:
Yes, it has a repeat but I am much sceptical about so called 1st gen copy used on that remastred version as I did not see any copies circulated from verified low gens for Dub recording except for a low gen I got, which is similar to NZ source but not identical (except for same patch before Immigrant Song, usual cuts in between the tracks and repeat before SIBLY). If anyone has a real confirmed 1st gen copy of Dub tape, it would be interesting to examine it and compare with my copy of unknown gen.
Yeah, I've never seen/heard of a real lowgen for the Dub/Blimp/TMOQ source, which is why that Empress Valley bootleg was such a surprise, since they obviously got ahold of a copy that only they have access to. Those Neutral Zone CDs were copied so many times by other bootleg labels that it doesn't surprise me that eventually some tape copies were getting traded as lowgens.
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1 hour ago, porgie66 said:
Hey Toshiro! This is the info for the project we did. I provided the Rubber Dubber LP rip from my own copy but I don't know about the 1st source origins, just that it was supposedly from a Dub Taylor's tape. According to the guy who headed this remaster , the 1st source tape was a low gen acquired in a trade. ?? Maybe he was mistaken but I highlighted in red the text regarding the source used.
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The 1st tape source came to me in a trade I made with a very close friend of mine many years ago.
I've only traded it out to other people a handfull of times, I really didn't think it was anymore special then the other versions of the 1st tape source until I started hearing other versions/releases of the 1st tape source.
This version I'm sharing with everyone has a much fuller, and brighter sound to it then previous releases.
The biggest advantage this version has over the others though is that it's running at the correct tape speed, older versions ( like GM's "Blueberry Hill") run too slow.
Thanks for posting the info. Had forgotten who was involved in those remasters. The version you guys did of the 3/17/73 Munich show is the best version I've heard of that show. So good.
Regarding the Dub tape, what I can hear on the Heavy Vibraphones version is that the usual "faked" crowd noise pasted on the beginning of the Vinyl and Neutral Zone CDs, before Immigrant Song, has a loop of a few more seconds of crowd noise that someone must've cut-and-pasted to make sound longer. The original sample came from Dub pasting it on that tape copy that was put onto the vinyl and Neutral Zone CDs, so it shouldn't exist as a "longer" version via a lowgen or the master. It's from after Heartbreaker. There's also the same repeat note before Since I've Been Loving You on the Vibraphones tape, which matches with the Vinyl/Neutral Zone CDs, and all of the songs are cut in the same places, so no new tape either. So Vibraphones was either an edited and re-arranged copy of the Neutral Zone CDs, or an edited version of one of any number of bootleg releases that also copied the Neutral Zone discs. Speaking of, Last Stand Disc did a good version cloning the Neutral Zone CDs and putting the songs in the right order. That's a good one to get to at least get the song order right in the same sound quality as the original Neutral Zone bootleg.
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1 hour ago, zepster1979 said:
Got these tapes as low gen so I can clearily proof that ;). EV title may be sourced from masters but, as you've accurately observed, its quality isn't as bright as NZ so I assume the NZ are closer to the masters than EV.
Does the low gen copy of yours have the repeat note at the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You? Does it have all of the same cuts between songs? If so, then it's sourced from the Neutral Zone CDs. There were lots of bootlegs that came out after the Neutral Zone CDs that put the songs back in the correct order, but they also all kept that same repeat before Since I've Been Loving You and they all had the same cuts between songs as the Neutral Zone CDs.
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14 hours ago, zepster1979 said:
Eat a Peach isn't EQ and it sounds exactly the same as Neutral Zone bootleg. EV is sourced from less bright copy of Dub recording and from my own knowledge, it sounds similar to the circulated low gen of that source. Neutral Zone / Eat a Peach likely used either a different copy or they got an access to a real master as EV is somewhat weak in comparison (more hiss etc.).
Sorry mate, that's not correct. The lowest generations of the Dub tape are the original Neutral Zone CDs from the 1980s (supposedly pressed up by Dub's ex-partner Ken, so would make sense) and the Empress Valley bootleg from the 2000s. The Neutral Zone CDs used the tape that was put on vinyl back in the 70s, with all the songs out of order, and had that same error/repeat note at the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You just like on the original vinyl. The Empress Valley mix doesn't sound as good as the Neutral Zone CDs, but it has more tape of that source than anything else (check Bootledz to confirm), and the EVSD bootleg came out nearly 20 years after the Neutral Zone discs were made, so I wouldn't be surprised that the master tapes that Empress Valley used probably weren't in very good condition by that point. Also, the Neutral Zone CDs used the tape copy that Dub himself had edited and mixed specifically for the bootleg back in 1970, which Dub is quoted as saying in Clinton Heylin's Bootleg book. So, even though the Empress Valley bootleg doesn't sound as good as Neutral Zone, maybe that's what the master tape sounds like today.
The Eat a Peach version is an edited composite of the Neutral Zone CDs and the Empress Valley bootleg, that's why it sounds similar to the Neutral Zone CDs in parts. The signs are in where the cuts are, and many of the source switches and fades on the Eat a Peach version are identical to the Empress Valley bootleg, including all of that extra tape at the end of the show, which is only found on the Empress Valley bootleg. The Heavy Vibraphones group remaster is from a doctored copy of the Neutral Zone CDs, and not from a true lower generation tape of the Dub tape. Besides the pasted extra crowd noise on the beginning, there is the same error/repeat before Since I've Been Loving You that's on the Neutral Zone CDs.
Eddie Van Halen slamming Page
in Led Zeppelin Live
Posted
There was only one original vinyl issue of Listen to This Eddie, on Rock Solid Records. It makes no mention of Kramer. There have since been 50,000+ different versions of the show on CD. Those discs can say whatever they want, and often take reviews from online. Doesn’t make the story true. Half of those bootlegs always say “Direct from the Master”, for instance.