swandown
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Posts posted by swandown
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Interesting follow up... in The Origin of the Species book by Adam Clayson, he states on page 73 that John Paul Jones used to play organ for Herbie Goin's and the Night Timers, to let off steam after his studio sessions. I wonder...
My notes show that this took place in 1966, when John McLaughlin was a member of the Night Timers (Jones and McLaughlin had previously played together in Jet Harris & Tony Meehan's backing band, and McLaughlin subsequently invited Jones to jam with the Night Timers).
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I tend to doubt that Plant and Korner would have played the Kirkcaldy YMCA, as that was in Scotland. I wonder if someone got that mixed up with the final Band Of Joy tour?
And I think Paul Rodgers was exaggerating to say the least. Neither Jimmy nor Robert have ever stated that Jimmy "called" Robert prior to seeing him with Obs-Tweedle. And Robert wouldn't have asked Paul if he'd heard of Jimmy Page!!
And I wonder if the "Cannon Hill Arts Centre" (mentioned in The Origin of the Species) is related to the "Midland Arts Centre" (mentioned by Chris Phipps). If so, then we can likely pinpoint the very first time Plant and Korner jammed together.
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Without meaning to upset anyone but a lot of RPs early career seems to be based on hearsay and the origin of Obstweedle seems to either be based on BBs memory or ...to be honest I don't know what the other version is based on..I could do with a clear explantion
- I think the earliest mention of the band was Jimmy's 1972 interview for Zig Zag magazine (where he called them "Obstweedle or Hobbstweedle, something like that").
- for the next ~30 years, there was almost ZERO original research done on the band. Everyone just repeated Jimmy's story, which was why the name was always spelled incorrectly.
- Robert added a few more details around 2002, including the proper spelling. He didn't give any specific dates, but he did say "I wasn't there for long".
- a few years ago, Bill Bonham told his story to brumbeat.net. He filled in the blanks as best he could, but he still left a lot of questions unanswered.
That's about it. I'd say that 99% of the information on Obs-Tweedle comes from Bill Bonham and this thread (plus a couple quotes from Robert). I don't think anyone has ever tracked down any of the other members of the band.
The Alexis Korner thing is intriguing..in what way did RP "tour" with AK..as a sideman?..as a support act?It was Korner on guitar/vocals and Plant on vocals/harmonica. I don't know if anyone else played with them. Korner did not have a regular band at this time. I had thought that their collaboration was limited to a few informal jams at nightclubs, but I recently read some liner notes which indicated that there was touring involved.
This is another aspect of Plant's career that has been severely under-researched.
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The Queen Mary Ballroom gig is an interesting find, but it still tends to contradict Bill Bonham's claim that they were "The Answer" prior to Robert joining the band. (I wonder if The Answer played the Queen Mary the week before??)
I would love to find more info on the Alexis Korner connection, but details are in short supply. I found vague mention that Plant met Korner when Korner played a gig in Birmingham, and that Plant "toured" with Korner in addition to sleeping on his couch. Toured?? Where? Korner toured Germany and Scandinavia in March 1968, and he played the Woburn Music Festival on July 6 1968. Since Robert has never mentioned any of that (and I can't imagine that he wouldn't mention playing Woburn, since Hendrix and a bunch of other big names were there), I would say that he wasn't with Korner during those periods.
Supposedly, Plant hooked up with Korner after Victor Brox and Marsha Hunt left his group. Hunt joined the London stage cast of "Hair". Does anyone know when that happened?
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Sorry for being dense Meg but I read Bill's story as The Answer doing the Europe gigs and after they returned Obstweedle came into existence with RP.
This is still possible, but it is seeming less and less likely.
The last known BOJ gig was March 10, 1968 (Carlton Club, Birmingham)
The first known Obs-Tweedle gig was March 13, 1968 (3 Men In A Boat, Walsall)
Perhaps Obs-Tweedle was in Europe in February/March (as "The Answer") and Robert joined them when they returned? But the problem with that theory is that Robert has always maintained that he went to London to play with Alexis Korner after the BOJ broke up.
I am inclined to believe that Obs-Tweedle was in existence for several weeks before Plant joined, and that Bill Bonham's memories are too fuzzy to remember the specifics.
However, I am intrigued by the possibility that Robert was indeed a member of Obs-Tweedle from March through July, and that he exaggerated his connection to Alexis Korner!
The key is to find evidence that the BOJ existed after March 13th.
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I think the story about JPJ's middle name being "Richard" was the result of some cheeky Wikipedia editing (which was then picked up by other websites that copy from Wikipedia). There's no real evidence that his middle name was Richard. In fact, BMI is now listing him as "John D. Baldwin".
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Scott, my notes (1991) show Terry Reid said Robert Plant and His Band of Joy were billed below him at the Buxton Opera House. Terry added he watched their set and phoned Jimmy the next day to tell him about Robert. Jimmy had already spoken with Terry, so he knew Jimmy was still looking for a vocalist.
I always thought it was Buxton as well, but this article says it was at the Boston Gliderdome.
It's also worth noting that the same article states that the infamous tour of Scotland took place "in the middle of winter" (which would rule out May 1968 as commonly suspected).
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I'm planning to go back to the Wolverhampton archives in the next couple of weeks..if there are any other specific dates like this I can look for please PM me and I'll see whats in there..I'll be starting with June 1968 so the Zoo gig will hopefully be one of the 1st I find.
Off the top of my head, here's a wishlist:
1. Obs-Tweedle at the Dudley Zoo (Broadway Club?), sometime in April/May/June 1968. This was the show where Plant allegedly joined the group.
2. anything mentioning Robert Plant or The Band Of Joy between March 10 and June 28, 1968.
3. confirmation of the Obs-Tweedle or Band Of Joy gig at the West Midlands College of Education on Gorway Road in late July.
4. confirmation of the Obs-Tweedle or Band Of Joy gig in Buxton (or Boston) with Terry Reid. This was the show that caused Reid to recommend Plant to Page.
Thanks and good luck!
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Three things about that story:
1. more proof that the phrase "new Yardbirds" was used in 1968 (even if it was informal).
2. the article claims that the band was scheduled to leave for an American tour on September 14, 1968. Yet they were still in Scandinavia! Is it possible that the Scandinavian tour was originally scheduled for just 1 week?
3. regarding the recording dates for the Alexis Korner sessions: Korner's albums have consistently claimed that the sessions took place in September 1968. Yet this article proves that the sessions had to have taken place prior to September 6th, which doesn't leave much time for Korner's claims to be correct.
Once again, fantastic work by Mr. Blocoboy.
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I'm a little confused..I thought that Obstweedle didn't exist prior to RP joining The Answer..when he joined they changed their name to Obstweedle.
That's what everyone thought before Blocoboy changed history.
But it's looking more and more like Robert joined them after they had been performing as Obs-Tweedle for quite some time. The newspaper first reported that Robert joined the group on July 4, 1968, and I find it very hard to believe that Robert would have played with them for 16 weeks without any mention in the press.
Also, if Robert joined Obs-Tweedle on March 13th (3 days after the last confirmed Band Of Joy gig) then it leaves no time for Robert to go to London to work with Alexis Korner -- unless Robert had exaggerated his connection with Korner.
I bet if you dig a little deeper you will find a gig for Obs-Tweedle at the Dudley Zoo's Broadway Club in mid-June 1968. If so, then it must be the date that Robert joined the group.
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So.......now we've got Obs-Tweedle dates as far back as 3/13/68, plus a tour of Germany?! Is it even possible that Robert was in the group that soon? Do we know of any confirmed Band Of Joy dates after 3/10/68?
Also, the 1/21/68 Band Of Joy show is billed as "By demand from London", yet it's been reported that they played London later in January. So, did they go to London twice? Or are the previously-published dates incorrect?
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Robert Clamp. Heh heh. I wonder if that had anything to do with Robert forming his own Band Of Joy, which happened right around the time of that gig.
Fantastic work as always, Blocoboy. Robert should hire you as his archivist.
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*When Rob was sacked from BOJ he formed another BOJ with a Band from Wolverhampton called THE PAPER (not the Paint as I have - read elsewhere AND pre Bonham,Gammond) RP encouraged them to paint their faces (he never did) and they used ordinary lipstick which after a weekend on skin was almost impossible to remove-one of the guys was a bank clerk and had to go to work like it!!! Cannot remember their names now but they were a nice bunch. I have a vague inkling that the original BOJ changed their name when RP left (The Good Egg?)
Hello Bes,
Earlier in this thread Blocoboy posted an article from October 1967 which indicated that Mickey Cox formed The Good Egg after members of the original Band Of Joy defected to Robert's band. The article lists The Good Egg as:
Mickey Cox (vocals, guitar)
Keith Belmore (lead guitar) <-- might he be the same person as Keith Law?
Keith Langsford (bass)
Plug Pemberton (drums) <-- might he be the same as Peter Robinson?
Meanwhile, the same article lists the new Band Of Joy lineup as:
Robert Plant (vocals)
Keith Hammond (guitar) <-- I presume that this was actually Kevin Gammond
Chris Brown (organ)
Paul Lockey (bass)
John Thompson (drums) <-- might he be the same person as John Trickett?
The article does not specify if Belmore, Langsford or Pemberton had previously been members of The Band Of Joy.
Ironically, Cox and former BOJ roadie Harold Barber would later form a group called "Paint" (I wonder if it had any connection to "The Paint", which supposedly featured Plant?)
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My question for the forum - is there any evidence to support the Tennessee Teens flyers have anything whatsoever to do with Robert
Steve,
Earlier in this thread blocoboy posted an article from March 1966 which indicated that Robert had been with Listen for less than 2 months. So, anything through December 1965 would not feature Robert. But some of the Tennessee Teens gigs in January/February 1966 most likely do feature him.
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Awesome new nuggets of info:
1. in May 1967 we had "the long awaited return of Listen" and "Robert Plant and The Band Of Joy" on back to back nights?!?
2. Madeline Bell sang on Robert's 1967 solo single; and since Bonzo also played on that single, it means that Bell is the only known person who played with all 4 members of Zep prior to 1968.
3. looks like Robert started his new "Band Of Joy" much later than previously believed.
4. now we know why Robert's new "Band Of Joy" failed -- the original group owned the trademark to the name!!
5. Robert on German TV in September 1967?!? Find that tape!!
Great work as always, Blocoboy!
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"Operator" and "Steal Away" are the only 2 songs confirmed to have been recorded. Robert has stated that he worked on an album with Korner, but no other song titles have been mentioned. And no one really knows when the sessions were recorded (we know that Plant was working with Korner in May-June 1968, but Korner's albums claim that the 2 songs were recorded in September).
P.S. Is Lowell Fulson really Prince Vultan from Flash Gordon??
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Given the band's dislike of Livin' Lovin' Maid, I find it a mystery that they kept it on Zep 2.
I think it's an exaggeration to describe their collective feeling as "dislike". (If they truly disliked it, then they wouldn't have put it on the album, period.) They just didn't think as highly of it as the other songs on the album.
Tracks left in the can at the time include Sugar Mama, Traveling Riverside Blues, Jennings Farm Blues, Poor Tom.I would say that all of these songs have an asterisk of some sort:
- "Sugar Mama" was little more than a sparse demo, and was far from ready to be released
- "Traveling Riverside Blues" was a BBC recording and likely wouldn't have been considered for release (especially since Jimmy did not produce it)
- "Poor Tom" was probably recorded after the 2nd album sessions
- "Jennings Farm Blues" was also probably recorded too late to make it on the 2nd album; also, I suspect that the band did not intend to release the song in its instrumental form.
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Do you know if the band The Message had any demos at the Swan Song offices?
I know that The Message (featuring Richie Sambora and Alec John Such) recorded a 6-song demo for Swan Song. They also recorded an album around 1983 which was not released until 1995. However, that album may have technically been recorded after they left the label. A couple previously-unreleased demos were included on a recent compilation CD called Lessons, but I don't know if they're from the 6-track Swan Song demo.
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No apologies necessary, Blocoboy. For all the work you've done in this thread, you're allowed a few blemishes.
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I would be very surprised if Robert actually played that gig on 7/28/68. Most reports state that he had gone to Jimmy's boathouse by that time. I wonder if this lineup of the BoJ was the one that John Hill referenced here.
Or maybe Robert was hedging his bets -- reforming the Band Of Joy while simultaneously auditioning for Jimmy Page's new band?
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Bill Wyman also claimed that some of the same recordings from June 1968 ended up on the first Led Zeppelin album. Maybe it was "Black Mountain Side"? Or maybe Jimmy recorded bits of the middle sections of "Dazed And Confused" or "How Many More Times" in June and then recycled them in October? I don't detect any tape cuts but I wouldn't put it past Jimmy -- especially when you consider the famous story that it only took ~30 hours to record the first album. Maybe that's because part of the album was already recorded??
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Jimmy Page and Steve Winwood both sessioned with Joe Cocker in June 1968 (one report has Winwood playing with Joe on June 17th and Jimmy showing up on June 18th). It's likely that Page & Winwood got together immediately afterward, as The Yardbirds were all but broken up and Traffic was on a break through July 26th.
One song is confirmed to have been recorded by Page & Winwood in 1968: "The Bells". It has been rumored that Winwood was the organist on the primitive guitar/keyboard instrumentals that surfaced on the bootleg Olympic Gold, but I think that rumor was based purely on speculation.
BTW, although some bootleg sources claim to contain as many as 11 takes of those guitar/keyboard instrumentals, there are actually only 7 takes in circulation. The rest are just repeats.
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Now if I remember correctly, Swandown then made an educated guess that Jimmy in fact attended Art school quite a bit earlier, beginning in 1960-1961!
Actually, I have 2 theories on Jimmy's tenure at art school:
1. based on recent evidence that Jimmy joined Neil Christian's band as early as March 1959 (and stayed with him for 18 months), then Jimmy could have enrolled in art college as soon as September 1960.
2. on the other hand, Jimmy wrote to a pen pal in 1963 that he planned on going to art school in September 1963. But perhaps Jimmy only meant that he was returning to art school?
Either way, most of Jimmy's life prior to 1966 is a total unknown.
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I think those Abbey Road sessions in Sept '68 should read Olympic, then again I don't remember. My notes show Abbey Road according to Greg Russo's 'Yardbirds - The Ultimate Rave-Up!' (3rd edition).
I thought Russo's book claimed that "Baby Come On Home" was recorded at Olympic? And didn't JPJ once say that he used Olympic's house organ for that song?
Dave Lewis speculates that "Baby Come On Home" might be from late 1969, although it certainly sounds like 1968 to me. They'd already given up on the group harmony vocals by 1969!
Robert Plant - Pre-Zep History
in Pre / Post-Zeppelin Forum
Posted · Edited by swandown
You know.......I was just looking at this picture again today.......and I noticed that the drummer isn't actually playing The Brumbeats' drumkit. Do you think it's possible that this picture shows Robert playing with another group (perhaps The Black Snake Moan or The Delta Blues Band)?
If so.....maybe Robert never played with The Brumbeats after all?