Nitpicking Page (The quest for the best performance of 1975)

[Oso2]

So would you consider doing USA 1973 next?

[JMH]

The work has already started in the 73 thread

[1975NQ]

On 3/6/2024 at 10:07 AM, Christopher Lees said:

One of those things you don't know until you play in a band and experience it yourself on stage. I've had this happen and it's very frustrating. Unless you play in a band, you would think it's just sloppy playing, bad timing or just being human and less than perfect, but if you play gigs, you KNOW what not hearing the monitors can do and you can sense it in recordings. Another thing about not having a good monitor mix is that it can really make it hard to play on an inspired level, because it sounds like crap on stage and you hate it, so it's hard to get into it. The best you can do is rely on being well-rehearsed and go through the motions, but there's something missing.

I love reading these types of comments on this forum, very insightful - thanks for sharing.

[1975NQ]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:24 AM, gibsonfan159 said:

No Quarter- 0:55, some weird tones behind the wah pedal. Otherwise solid intro and good emotion from Plant on the verses. Jones'  transition is hesitant as it takes him a while to readjust. A very unexciting routine as John takes extra long to get through the warm up phrases. Things liven up more once Bonzo enters. 9:57, Page enters out of nowhere to join the jam. Solo- James plays steadily but a little hesitant. 11:27, finally taking off but playing on the looser side. 12:27, a fluid start on this run but tangles up on the end. 13:20, Bonham getting restless on the hi hat. 15:24, some experimental licks. Not bad playing here but the flow and phrasing is very lackluster. 18:50, the energy picks up on the excellent outro as Jimmy shreds with the wah. Plant and Bonham were the most inspired for this mostly sleepy version. "B".

 

It's funny how different listeners like different things about Zep, but that's what makes us all unique. Apples and oranges, as they say. I personally would give this No Quarter an A++. The vibe is right. What you call "sleepy" is what I call laid back and fluid, which for me is the perfect approach for this song (talking specifically here about Page's solo). Regarding this particular version, the crowd was pretty rowdy to the point of concerning Plant and Page. I believe they played this extremely laid back version as a way to chill them out. I think JPJ was taking his sweet time noodling around in the beginning for this very reason. But the guitar solo itself is fantastic and one of my favorites for this song.

Regarding the show itself, it has my vote for best show of March. Plant himself is in fantastic voice but unfortunately is popping and cracking all over the place, which is a huge detractor for me. I'm sure it was even more frustrating for him because when he's on (in between voice cracks), he sounds absolutely fantastic.

[JMH]

Is 11.3. on the list?

[gibsonfan159]

14 hours ago, JMH said:

Is 11.3. on the list?

Up next

[JMH]

That'll be interesting. Just had it on in the background and apart from the out of tune twelve string in TSRTS I cannot remember any train wrecks. Sounded like a solid 1975 show, with a good Plant and a very forceful IMTOD.

 

Edited April 4 by JMH

[Sted]

11 hours ago, JMH said:

That'll be interesting. Just had it on in the background and apart from the out of tune twelve string in TSRTS I cannot remember any train wrecks. Sounded like a solid 1975 show, with a good Plant and a very forceful IMTOD.

 

Black dog solo wasn't sounding too good

[JMH]

May very well have been the case. My concentration can have drifted off during DC already.

[Oso2]

What's next? Dan Diego March 14?

 

[gibsonfan159]

Nitpicking Page 3/11/1975 Long Beach, CA (Grame Remaster)

SBD with AUD patches.

Rock And Roll- Plant a little scratchy. 1:00, he forgets about the "Book of love". Solo- messy intro and some off chords at the end but the middle was played very well. 3:10, Plant forcing a good scream. 3:14, loose chords by Jim. Not the strongest opener. "B".

Sick Again- 1:11, a couple sloppy chords by Jim. Robert sounding much better now. Solo- played surprisingly well. Outro solo- 4:25-4:32, a series of forced phrases and sloppy runs. Otherwise not too bad. "B+".

OTHAFA- Intro played nicely (and in tune). Verses sounding good with only a slightly raspy Plant and Jim's tone is noticeably thicker on this tonight. Solo- 3:30, playing aggressively. 3:50, straining in a couple places. 4:27, hang up. 4:41-4:50, the expressive playing starts to teeter on sloppiness but he sticks it out. 5:55, rare Jones flub. Bonham accompanies Page on the outro with some cymbal rolls. "B+".

IMTOD- Robert is in high spirits for the verses. First solo- solid phrasing, not rushing anything. Maybe loose in places but overall very good. 5:20, Robert really getting expressive. Second solo- Jim does a good job keeping up with the blazing tempo. Not bad. Bonham goes berserk on the outro and the energy is through the roof. 10:12, Jimmy mis-times the return but quickly corrects it. 10:46, Plant pushing his vocals to the limit. The high spirits on this one make it a must hear. "A++".

TSRTS- Intro sounds solid, the verses are almost too relaxed. First solo- articulation isn't great. 2:55, very obviously a string out of tune which I think throws Jim off. He survives though. 3:08, Robert squeaking a little. 3:35-3:50, that string sounding dreadful but Jimmy keeps pushing. Outro- good playing by Jimmy is overshadowed by technical issues. Just gotta laugh this one off. "C+".

Rain Song- I bet Page was happy to get back to six strings. Despite Plant's voice being stronger than usual he keeps croaking when going for higher notes. The mellotron sounds very unusual through the soundboard. Solid playing throughout. The rock section is good, maybe lacking some spirit. (7:45, Jones makes some comical sounds with his Mellotron and Bonham mimics him on the kettle drum. ) "A-".

Kashmir- Bonham's drums sound good on this recording with the phaser effect adding the "swish". Tempo moves pretty fast. 1:50, awkward high note from Rob but he nails it. 5:30, snare work. Page's outro soloing is a bit sticky. Honestly a strong version, lots of energy and no real notable flaws. "A+".

No Quarter- Robert is heard stating that Jones is having problems before the start. Jones' acapella section is marred by a crackling sound as he plays and it takes him a while to get on track with the phrasing. 6:08, more strange noises coming through. 6:15, Robert shouts something in the background. 6:48, getting into a wonderful flow here. 9:22, Bonham enters and the groove is impeccable as usual. Page enters the jam unusually with some feverish riffing. Solo- he does come in fluidly for his spot, sounding coherent. 13:20, this sweep lick is the usual sloppy. 14:12, finding a sweet spot in the groove. 15:02, Page boosts his overdrive and has very nice execution on these grittier licks. He dabbles with the wah before putting a nice solo to rest. Plant has good enthusiasm on the return although his vocals are in the raspy range. 19:47, Jones plays some off sounding chords. 20:00, Jimmy absolutely nailing the phrasing through here. 20:38, chord flubs as he jumps back to the main riff. I don't think the SBD helps this one and the AUD recording probably sounds way more impressive, but it's a damn good performance despite the minor hiccups. "A+". (Some hammering on the stage is heard afterwards and Bonham remarks "We're building a shithouse").

Trampled Underfoot- Excellent start with appropriate energy. Jones plays his solo spot Solo- decent start. 3:46, terribly inarticulate run. 4:12, playing nice aggressive licks. 4:21, switching to a major key phrasing including an ascending country style run which just sounds awkward. 4:48, articulation disaster. A nice mixture of awesome and trainwreck as only Jimmy Page can do. Good finish. "B" is fair for an overall rating. (Robert comments that Jimmy broke two strings).

Dazed- Good enthusiasm on the intro, with Page experimenting with wah riffs. First workout- sounds a little stale and straight forward but the playing is solid. Plant makes some questionable noises throughout. 7:50, a persistent buzzing sound finally gets put to rest. Jimmy segues into Woodstock nicely.10:30, things get a little askew here, nothing major. Bow section around six and a half minutes. 18:55, off to the races as Jimmy opens with a nice series of pull offs, followed by some turkey gobbling around 19:02. More sticky fingers afterwards and a very sad attempt at Ozone Baby. 20:12, a pretty embarrassing descending/ascending run. 22:16, Jimmy is definitely feeling inspired but his fingers aren't quite aligned with his mind. 23:28, Page butchers the chords on the Mars section. 23:44, this delay on the vocals actually sounds great. 24:50, Bonham absolutely killing on the climax. Jimmy's outro jam is fairly average. Some serious flubs on this one but somehow it doesn't seem bad overall. "C+".

Stairway- Intro comes in pretty fast. Playing with confidence and everything moves along perfectly. 3:54, a unique "I remember laughter". The spirit on this really stands out, let's hope this solo holds up. 5:51, Jim's strumming reveals a string out of tune. Solo- very nice start. 6:53, Jim does solid work with the tremolo strumming. 7:17, off notes. 7:24, some strange chords here but he makes them work. 8:18, Jimmy feeling it and nailing the groove. Not perfectly articulate but he's staying on track. Nails the final phrases. One of the more expressive and standout solos I've heard despite it not being entirely articulate. Plant naturally struggles with the climax a little but pushes through. The outro reveals that out of tune string again. Not a perfect version but this makes a strong impression to me as the enthusiasm is top notch and Jim's solo is phrased very well although there's a couple flubs with articulation. "B+" on a nitpick level, but give it a listen. 

WLL- Page miffs the opening riffs pretty badly. I'm not sure how you get a guitar tone to sound this lifeless. 2:00, The Crunge starts off as usual but Page quickly gets off track and plays slightly off time throughout. Plant is even singing off key. The theremin section is actually impressive. 6:33, Page comes in double time on the funk riffing to seemingly make up for that Crunge disaster but I'm not sure it helps. Not the worst thing I've heard but it's not good. "C".

Black Dog- Sounding good performance wise but that soundboard guitar tone is as criminal as the holocaust. Solo- Page straining a bit. 4:25, he says screw it and improvises a nice set of palm muted chord riffs, followed by severe turkey gobbling. The ending is fairly decent. "B" overall. 

Final Assessment- For one, this is mostly a soundboard which we know reveals more than what a true live sound does. With this said it's a fairly strong 75 performance with the usual Jim slumps throughout. Robert warms up quickly but never really hits any kind of impressive peak. Bonham is pretty lively and Jones is Jones. High spirits prevail on In My Time Of Dying, Kashmir, and No Quarter. Not a bad listen but don't expect to be overly impressed.

 

[JMH]

Without that damn out of tune twelve string it would be quite the killer first half of a 75 show.

Cheers, Mr. Gibson!

 

[Oso2]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:17 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

Final Assessment- For one, this is mostly a soundboard which we know reveals more than what a true live sound does.

 

Why not listen to the excellent Millard audience recording then?

One thing that I've noticed - I've heard big clean guitar sounds at a gig that sounded amazing, but didn't translate well to tape.

[gibsonfan159]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:11 PM, Oso2 said:

Why not listen to the excellent Millard audience recording then?

I prefer good audience sources for personal listening but just chose the soundboard for this review. It's amazing what different impressions each give.

[gibsonfan159]

Nitpicking Page 3/14/1975 San Diego, CA (Conspiracy Theory- EVSD)

Another dry, twangy, lifeless soundboard recording from our friends at Empress Valley Supreme Disc. 

Rock And Roll- After a stretch of shows with Robert almost getting back to normal he's somehow entered the influenza stage again. Solo- the twangy SBD makes a bad impression but Jimmy actually nails some decent phrasing for this. 3:24-3:30, things get a little shaky here. Not too bad for the warm up song. "B+".

Sick Again- Plant is struggling but the energy is good. 1:13, Jim flub. First solo- very loose on the start and barely hangs on for the rest. 2:13, chord flubs. Bonham sounds good and is killing it with the drum fills. Outro- not great fluidity from Jim, more on the sloppy side. Even Rob hits some flat notes before ending. "B".

OTHAFA- Jim's intro is played well but that G string is borderline flat. Robert already sounding exhausted on the intro, a bad sign for sure. 1:50, slight chord flub. Solo- the opening bends are done nicely before Page launches into a confident array of abstract phrases and soundscapes. In other words it's not bad. 3:57, straining a little on these bends. 4:45, sloppy articulation. 5:47, Jim getting hung up on the return chords. 6:14, Plant just straining badly but you can hear his effort. Jimmy flubs the outro and runs through some White Summer hammer-ons before finishing. Not too terrible but definitely rough in places. "B".

IMTOD- 0:42, Jim a bit loose. Jones' bass very pronounced on the recording. 4:13, rare Jones flub. First solo- phrasing is a bit askew but Jimmy keeps it in the road. 5:44, Jim drops out for a few seconds. Second solo- good start but things get erratic again around 6:50. The outro jam grooves nicely. Awesome energy but Page's overall playing is pretty messy throughout. "B".

TSRTS- Page struggling on the intro riffs, even pausing for a bit. First solo- 2:40, I think Jones fails to transition to the next phrase here. Jimmy starts out ok but gets sketchy in places. 3:08, very rough. Rob manages the Honolulu section alright. Outro- 4:40, Jimmy struggles throughout the final solo. The energy here would lead you to believe this is a solid version but the devil is in the details. "C+".

The Rain Song- I believe we have a string slightly out of tune on the intro. Jim's fingers aren't very nimble on the intro and the mellotron sounds like a mosquito buzzing in the background. The delay effect on the guitar is almost distracting through this SBD recording. 2:51, someone gets their phrasing mixed up and the interlude section sounds very loose. 4:33, Jones trying to get the flow going but the mellotron just sounds trash here. Plant goes all out on the rock section, straining a little. The last verses have a little more oomph. 6:56, pretty sure the Tron almost explodes on the outro. Not the best, "B". (8:12, Bonham can be heard possibly slapping someone in the background, hopefully the inventor of the mellotron)

Kashmir- 1:55, the mello again sounding like it's batteries are dying. Everything else seems to be in order although this recording is less than impressive. There's good effort in this version but it's a little disjointed throughout and just doesn't make a huge impression. "B".

No Quarter- Jimmy plays some Shaft licks to get warmed up. Bonham's drum groove on the intro is impeccable. Jones makes up for that mellotron tomfoolery by going over the top on his piano solo, just nailing every phrase and flowing along nicely. One of the better Jones/Bonham jam sections easily. 15:15, Page hits some off chords. Solo- Page drops into his routine with a good flow. 16:49, a little loose as he forces this phrase to fit. 18:20, this common phrasing sounding sloppy. Jim seems to struggle to get a flow going but he's not bad. 19:30, good energetic run but a bit sticky. I'll be honest, Page does just okay through this solo but he's mostly getting in the way of an unbelievable jam from Jones and Bonham. The return sounds good and Jimmy does some neat wah riffing on the outro. Again, Jones and Bonham are just ridiculous all the way through. Page is just there and his guitar tone on this SBD doesn't make a great impression. "B+".

Trampled Underfoot- Upbeat and grooving nicely. Jones hammers out some solid phrases for his section. Solo- 3:40. Jimmy starts out fairly rough, fingers getting very sticky. Not a great one from Jimmy. 6:02, despite the driving tempo the song starts to fizzle out a little. Finish is good. "B".

Moby Dick- Page barely gets through the opening riff. Bonham plays with excellent feel throughout but the variation feels limited as he repeats the same patterns heavily. 

Dazed- Bonham shines on the opening with some nice fills. Plant's vocal delivery is overdone on the verses as he pushes to the point of straining. First workout- Jim's fingers are nimble on some fluid phrases to start. The Woodstock transition is played hesitantly, with Jim missing a couple chords before Robert comes in. This one just doesn't flow well. The bow section pushes eight minutes. Second workout- Jim plays with confidence on the beginning. 19:52, he attempts some very strained Walter's Walk phrases, followed by an erratic array of phrasing. 21:25-21:40, the descend/ascend phrase straight up sounds like two roosters fighting. 24:38, experimental riffs. 25:50, the Mars section played clumsily. The circular funk section is a step up but short and the climax lands well with Bonham oddly avoiding the signature triplet fills. The last verses sound ok and Jim's outro jamming is screechy and a little loose. "B".

Stairway- The intro is just a little loose but mostly good. The verses flow well, especially once Bonham's tight rhythm comes in to push the energy a bit. 5:28, some "Good Times Bad Times" footwork. Solo- a little sticky to start. He does play with passion and the guitar overdrive sounds more saturated than usual. 8:22, close to straining on this soft section but his groove sits pretty well. 8:48, sticky. 9:13, getting experimental with the extended soft phrases. 10:00, they jump into the ending measure nicely with Page nailing these phrases. Robert pushes himself on the climax and somehow doesn't crack his voice. Really not bad but there's some of that certain magic missing. "A-".

Heartbreaker- Page's guitar sounds very unusual as he plays the intro loosely. Solid verses. Jim's pre solo jam is played well enough. Smear section not so much as he strains throughout. The rockabilly section flows well however. Once the tempo picks up Jim finds a better groove and noodles away. 6:35, after a series of repeated bends Jimmy disappears altogether (possible guitar swap) and later comes back to finish. 

Final Assessment- If there is any summation of a mediocre 1975 Led Zeppelin show this is it. Apart from a faulty mellotron there's really nothing disastrous about it, but it's like they just couldn't get truly synced and on track for any of the numbers. Hard to believe coming off such a solid show as 3/12. I'm sure burnout plays a factor after being on the road for months and you can feel it here, although it doesn't stop them from showing up and delivering a decent performance. It's not a bad show, just nothing to brag about and the re-listen factor is very low.

This version of Dazed exemplifies why many fans thought it should've been dropped for the 75 tour. It's tired, they're tired, and the song didn't really evolve past it's 73 state other than the addition of the Woodstock section, which is it's only saving grace. Led Zeppelin were once a group that came to notoriety by "Out-muscling" every other group of the era, Bonham hit harder than any drummer, Plant screamed banshee wails with more power than anyone before, Page ripped through aggressive blues licks with more passion and feel than his peers. That arguably continued somewhat through 1973. But 1975 was just different, and they were all in all a different type of band. They became less about muscle and more about musical landscapes. Then you factor in Plant's now weakened voice and Page's altered playing style (and whatever the assumed cause was for it). Even Bonham seems overly relaxed and less dynamic throughout the 75 tour. It's understandable however, everyone matures and it goes without saying these guys matured musically and became less interested in flexing muscle and wanted to experiment with new soundscapes. Basically the equivalent of a weight lifting jock in high school going to college and joining a drum circle and becoming interested in abstract art. It happens. But when that happens it's a good idea to let those weight lifting songs like Dazed And Confused stay in the past. Which I believe is what happened for the 1977 tour. 

[JMH]

Spot on about 75 Dazed and 77 setlist.

One of those things I would like to ask the guys about is the 75 setlist as the early one in 75 could have evolved into something very special. 
 

Work on Levee and Wanton Song was already almost perfected. Forget about HMMT and add something new instead.

Anyway, 77 setlist was a major improvement (75 works only up untill Trampled), but the brainfart of OTT and cat strangle combination does not earn it a top spot. Light and shade one might say as the beginning of Achilles sounds always like a godsend after Page has finished his guitar wankery.

 

Maybe he was on to something after all. It’s all about dynamics and calling the drum solo OTT was just a hint of what was to come later on… a lot of shade.

Edited May 12 by JMH

[gibsonfan159]

Yeah, I don't understand why Wanton Song was abandoned. All live versions of it were fine and I wouldn't say Plant struggled with it at any point.

[Walesdad]

16 hours ago, JMH said:

Spot on about 75 Dazed and 77 setlist.

One of those things I would like to ask the guys about is the 75 setlist as the early one in 75 could have evolved into something very special. 
 

Work on Levee and Wanton Song was already almost perfected. Forget about HMMT and add something new instead.

Anyway, 77 setlist was a major improvement (75 works only up untill Trampled), but the brainfart of OTT and cat strangle combination does not earn it a top spot. Light and shade one might say as the beginning of Achilles sounds always like a godsend after Page has finished his guitar wankery.

 

Maybe he was on to something after all. It’s all about dynamics and calling the drum solo OTT was just a hint of what was to come later on… a lot of shade.

While there are still terrific listens to be had from '75, I've come around to thinking that tours set list was almost brutal, both for the band and certainly the audience. With 'No Quarter' lasting anything from 15 -20 minutes or so, followed almost immediately by 'Moby Dick' ( anything from 15 - 20 again ) and 'Dazed and Confused' ( anywhere between 20 -40 minutes on occasion ) this was indeed a marathon set and it is no surprise that some of the shows stretched to the three hour mark. There are some great shows along the way, we could all pick favourites, and a bit like the eternal question about whether or not the Beatles white album would have been better off as a single disc set, this is what Led Zeppelin were in 1975, take it or leave it. Some of it might be occasionally self indulgent, most of it was the finest back catalogue in rock music history and still sounds totally unique today. We never knew how lucky we were.

[JMH]

Sorry for the spam but it could have been like this with small changes to the established one:

RR

SA

OTHAFA

IMTOD

TSRTS

RS

KASHMIR

NQ

WS

XXX

MD

TU

STH

WLL (ENCORE)

ENCORE

Stairway in my opinion before MD as in 73 but for sure given the size of the song it would have been unrealistic to expect that. Not a very thorough thought process behind this one.

 

more 75 picks to come, not that I ”demand” it as I often go through the existing ones while listening and the work is great, but out of general curiosity?

Or was it all here already? Haven’t done the math.

Edited May 13 by JMH

[gibsonfan159]

3 hours ago, JMH said:

more 75 picks to come

I do believe 1975 is now complete, although there's a few I want to do revisions of (Montreal, 3/12)

[Oso2]

On 5/12/2024 at 4:17 PM, JMH said:

Work on Levee and Wanton Song was already almost perfected. Forget about HMMT and add something new instead.

I greatly disagree. Levee didn't even reach the level of a decent cover band. No doubt they could have done it better with a bit of hard work in the rehearsal studio. I personally think they might have done a good job of it in '77.

Wanton Song fares a little better, but they never did a live version that approaches, let alone surpasses the studio cut. Any 1998 Page Plant version blows the live Zep efforts out of the water.

It's a pity as those two songs are among my favorites and they deserved better. YMMV.

Edited May 14 by Oso2

[Oso2]

I formally request a 1977 thread. (Gibsonfan159 will work for his money then!) Seriously, it would be nice to bring some new light to lesser known shows.

 

[gibsonfan159]

On 5/19/2024 at 8:57 PM, Oso2 said:

I formally request a 1977 thread. (Gibsonfan159 will work for his money then!) Seriously, it would be nice to bring some new light to lesser known shows.

 

Already done!

1971, 1979, and 1980 are also completed. About half of 1973 is done.

 

 

[Oso2]

On 5/21/2024 at 4:57 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

Already done!

1971, 1979, and 1980 are also completed. About half of 1973 is done.

 

 

Thanks. I've read a few of your 1977 reviews now. I have to admit you were far more critical of 1975 than 1977. I think you let them off easy at times. Hey, we all have our favourites. But I would have been kinder towards Seattle 1975 and harsher towards trainwrecks like Heartbreaker 6.21.77, Kasmir 6.23.77 and IMTOD 5.22.77; despite the presence of good playing on those tracks. And I thought that Pagey's playing on No Quarter was much stronger overall in 1975. More than any other year, 1977 would benefit from an edited "best of" like the TSRTS soundtrack.

But I thank you for doing this. I love discussing this stuff.

Edited May 23 by Oso2
typo

[JMH]

Kashmir 6.23.1977 is eight out of ten.