Bonzo_fan
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Posts posted by Bonzo_fan
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8 hours ago, NegativeCrepe said:
This remaster of mine combines both sources to make the most complete version of the concert presently possible
I'm listening to this show right now as well. I was wondering if @Strider can recall anything about "Over The Top" from this show since it's the only sizeable chunk missing from any of the six nights. Was it a marathon version like the previous night? They were certainly in a "long" mood this show, as it features the second-longest "Noise Solo," third-longest "No Quarter" and third-longest "Stairway To Heaven." The version I have clocks in at 3h 12m, so a decent-lengthen "Over The Top" would make this the second longest show of the week even though it has the shortest encore and is the only show of the six without a pre-encore extra, "That's Alright Mama" tease notwithstanding.
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5 hours ago, pluribus said:
Keep in mind that the longer shows don't automatically = better shows. For some of the ones listed, like Seattle 7/17/77, Earls Court 5/23-25/75, and LA 3/27/75, 6/25/77, and 6/27/77...none of those would be considered their "Best" show of those tours. Oftentimes, what pushed the length of the show was something like Bonham going 10 minutes longer on his drum solo, or a few additional minutes from an extra bit of banter or a guitar solo that went a few bars longer. Or they played a single standard encore vs not playing any. It's not like Osaka 9/29/71 or Seattle 6/19/72, where the band played EVERY song longer, and did extra encores. In the case of 7/17/77, that's not a good show by any stretch. Both 3/27/75 and 6/27/77 are so long because Page drew everything out, for the final nights at the venue those years, but to little actual effect.
Stand-outs for the "long shows" are:
LA 6/22/77, 6/23/77
Long Beach 3/12/75
Seattle 3/21/75
Memphis 4/17/70
Osaka 9/28-29/71
Seattle 6/19/72
Absolutely right. I'm personally quite fond of 3/27/75, but yes, length is not synonymous with quality, for individual songs or entire shows. Speaking of 3/27/75 and length, it holds the crown of average length per song by a significant margin. They only played 15 songs that night, compared to 17 on 3/21/75, 20 on 5/25/75, 21 on 6/27/77 and 24 on 6/19/72.
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34 minutes ago, pluribus said:
And even those are still off. Seattle 3/21/75 is closer to 3:39 and is still missing crowd noise between encores, which was probably another 4-5 minutes.
LA 3/27/75 is closer to 3:42, but is also likely missing 4-5 minutes of crowd noise between encores. Add in varying tape speeds across recordings, and the list would likely change some more.
3/21/75 and 3/27/75 are both 3:42 and change, minus crowd noise between encores. I was paying close attention to it when I was listening three months ago lol.
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43 minutes ago, zeplz71 said:
and Knebworth
Oh, true. I was thinking of it as a multitrack because I've only ever really watched/listened to the portion on the DVD.
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49 minutes ago, Zep Hed said:
Robert was quite the diplomat that night in Texas. He TRASHED Texas in Toronto only a few weeks earlier!
But getting back to outdoor shows, I've been interested in comparing the sound of outdoor soundboard recordings vs. indoor, but it's curious how there are so few outdoor soundboards. The mystery soundcheck has had many theories as to its location. Start of the 73 N.A. tour? Dunno if I'm believing it's outdoors.
Yeah, the last third of the Kezar '73 is the only outdoor soundboard I can think of other than Texas Pop.
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39 minutes ago, Strider said:
Four of the shows I went to are in the top 10, including #1 and #2.
What is fascinating is that after the 1975 U.S. tour, Led Zeppelin added "Tangerine" and a complete acoustic set for the Earls Court gigs and they still ended up shorter than March 27 and March 21, 1975.
Indeed. That list seems a bit odd though -- I take it they've cut out every second of between-song banter and such, but how does that shave 40 minutes off of May 25, 1975, yet only 23 minutes or so off of March 27? I suppose 20 songs as opposed to 15 could make that much of a difference, but that seems nuts...
It also tells me that Seattle '72 is likely in the bottom half of the Top 10 in actuality since there's a good 10, maybe 15 minutes cut.
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June 22, 1977 - Los Angeles -- My personal favourite '77 show. You know it's a good one when the biggest mistake is Plant singing a verse out of order in the second half of an especially thunderous "Kashmir"...
- Close to, if not all-time best versions of IMTOD, OTHAFA, Noise Solo, Achilles
- Crushing opening 1-2-3 punch just like the previous night
- Great, raw SIBLY
- Longest NQ of all time at 34 minutes!
- Very good acoustic set -- Plant sounds great on GTC!
- One of the best '77 drum solos -- very thunderous
- Great and unique Stairway with Plant not singing some variation of "Does anybody remember laughter?" and Page skipping the extra bar on the 12-string and jumping straight into the (awesome) solo
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8 hours ago, porgie66 said:
This topic comes up from time to time, and it still amazes and frustrates me that more footage, alternate takes, Bonzo's solo (!!!) can't be cobbled together for a special release. Something like... "The Song Remains The Same - An Alternate Perspective "
Maybe it has something to do with the rights owner of the film..(Warner) ?? How happy would all Zep fans be if they had the fantasy sequence footage replaced with the actual playing, (do you mean to tell me the dumb ass film crew didn't get Jimmy's solo on No Q or Bonzo's drum solo??) or alternate versions of songs , or even a full stage view , house shot ( like the end of Rock and Roll) . I'll never understand how there could be so many gaps , these guys must've been hacks. Probably will never happen and the film will just rot in the vaults.
I've wondered this too. They really should hire an archivist like the Dead have so that there's at least someone with more of a fan's perspective who has a seat at the table as it were. Perhaps whoever gets the keys to the vault after Page is gone will have a different approach to what's deemed release-worthy.
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6 hours ago, WD52 said:
True but Seattle 72 would sound significantly 'better' or 'worse' when played on different systems, so when someone comments on a recording they hear I always like to know what they are hearing it through. If I was to buy a turntable to equal the sound I get from my current cd based system I would need to spend something like £5k on a turntable, arm, and cartridge. And £500+ on a proper record cleaner. A cheap cd player will always sound worse than vinyl, but there comes a point where the two sound qualities even out. Also choice of speakers can make a massive difference to how a recording is presented.
Fair. Really eh? I had no idea turntables ran that expensive actually. I'm sure mine wasn't that much lmao. I have noticed that about the speakers, yes. I find the car speakers are the best, but we lucked out and got a Fender sound system in there that's a lot bigger than most car systems because it came with the technology package, which I convinced my mom she needed for the GPS 😈
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9 hours ago, WD52 said:
This is going to sound horribly geeky, but....It is no real use discussing what shows sound like unless you explain what system you are listening to. What you might be appreciating is the way your system creates the sound rather than an objective view of the boot in question. For example the same boot sounds poorer and less dynamic when played in my car stereo, slightly better on my £200 cheap work cd player and fantastic on my £2k Roksan M2 player through similarly priced speakers and amp. And don't get me started on the current trend for vinyl-where people spend £20 on an album then play it on a £200 record player with a £20 needle and claim vinyl is superior to cd....
You're right that the same boot can sound noticeably different depending on the hardware you're listening with, but I think general assessments of sound quality are pretty fair. I could play LTTE or Blueberry Hill through my phone's speaker and it would still sound significantly better than something like Seattle '72 through car speakers or a really good stereo. As for the vinyl debate, I notice a difference, but I have no idea what my setup cost because it was a Christmas gift, so I'm not sure where it would fall on your spectrum. I would say CDs are closer to vinyl than they are to mp3, but vinyl is still superior.
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7 hours ago, WD52 said:
Getting back into the older stuff-so Praying Silently for Jimi was last on earlier today.
It's always a great day for 9/19/70!
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34 minutes ago, woz70 said:
With non-linear digital editing that would be relatively easy nowadays.
In 1976 it would have been ridiculously difficult, if not impossible to match a vocal from one show to the instruments from another.
Considering how much variation went on from song to song and from night to night in terms of tempo, dynamic and overall 'feel', I'm still not sure you could convincingly match a vocal from one night to the bands playing on a different night.That makes sense. I'm pretty sure he mixed and matched vocals and instruments between the three MSG nights though: http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/tgt.html
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As far as the three shows at MSG being the only ones, I believe some of the backstage footage is from Baltimore a few days earlier. If the tapes were rolling already for that show, even if it was only the audio, that would be quite a treat. If they did tape Baltimore though, I'm not sure why Page wouldn't have used some of Plant's vocals from it at the very least as it was arguably his best show of the year. He sure went to great lengths to fix some of Plant's issues at the MSG shows, so why wouldn't he just use the Baltimore vocals if he had them sitting there? Sadly, I've never read anything suggesting that the tapes were rolling already in Providence, which is my favourite '73 show.
It's not like the MSG shows are bad, but if they had recorded and filmed a week earlier instead...Seattle, Boston, Providence, Baltimore -- imagine the live album that could've been compiled from those shows!
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2 hours ago, Zep Hed said:
Appetizer for the Big One!
Haha exactly! I've been pumped all week for The Big One tomorrow 😆
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I just stumbled upon this trailer that ledzepfilm uploaded 20 minutes ago, says it will be released on Sunday. If the whole thing looks as good as the trailer, it should be quite something!
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3 hours ago, Page Les Paul said:
I have a question:
Why do the soundboards for the 75 US Tour sound so much clearer than the soundboards for the last two nights of Earl's Court? For example - Seattle (03/21/1975) sounds so much clearer than the Earl's Court (05/25/1975) show. Is the venue somehow affecting the sound? I could see that for an audience tape but not a soundboard.
3 hours ago, SteveZ98 said:The "soundboards" from the Earls Court shows are actually video soundtracks, so they were recorded on a different machine than the soundboards from the '75 US tour. I haven't listened to the Earl's Court recordings recently, but being soundtracks they may also include effects (reverb, etc.) that don't appear on soundboards. Also, more generally, we don't know the path each recording took before it was released. One could have been copied from tape to tape multiple times before we got to hear it, and another could be much closer to the master. That's my guess as to why the '77 soundboards all sound so different, even for shows that were played on consecutive nights.
Steve basically covered it. As far as different venues affecting a soundboard they most definitely do, but in a roundabout way. Since the soundboard is a direct copy of what was being sent through the PA, it features the same corrections that would have been made to adjust for idiosyncrasies of the venue. For example, a bass-heavy soundboard suggests that the natural acoustics of the venue were lacking in bottom end. I can't recall who or in which thread, but someone on here explained this in more detail a month or so ago.
The other reason the North American '75 boards sound so good, especially compared to the '77 ones, which you would expect to be as good or better since there was an extra two years of technology available, is that they were recorded on reel-to-reel tapes, whereas the '77 boards were recorded on cassette tapes -- I guess new technology isn't always an improvement eh?
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June 13, 1977 - New York -- Always been one of my favourites. I'd say it's a Top 5 show for '77, perhaps even Top 3 behind 6/22 & 6/21.
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14 hours ago, pluribus said:
There are something like 40ish drum solos available on soundboard. Pat's Delight from Fillmore 4/27/69 through to 7/17/77 Seattle.
Figure that you could fit 2-4 solos onto a CD, and you easily get 15 CDs worth of unforgivingly brutal and relentless pounding.
The interesting thing is, in the case of the drum solos, almost all of the very best versions happen to be from shows for which we have the soundboard. Pity the soundboard for 7/17/73 Seattle cuts off just before "Moby Dick," as that's the only "must hear" version I can think of that is only available on an audience source. The 6/19/72 Seattle version is really good too, but it has a sizeable cut -- probably safe to assume the whole thing was stellar though, given the quality of the rest of the show...
That would be awesome! I'm a drummer, mind you 😂
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4 hours ago, Page Les Paul said:
What is the preferred version of the 02/12/1975 NYC show? I see where bluecongo did a version of this show.
I've only ever listened to Godfather's That's Alright New York, which sounds great.
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7 hours ago, jsj said:
I know it’s been raised before but I don’t understand why WS/BMS was included in the set in its full form. Often Page couldn’t play it well, it was passed its sell by date, and why not just play another better song instead?
I think if he’d have just played a very short version of it as a tease it could have been a great intro to Kashmir. But to string it out so long when he was struggling was just daft.
Did anyone hope for its inclusion in a set after 1970?I've wondered this before as well. I understand why it was included in the 1977 setlist because Plant needed extra breaks for his foot (even though it was probably past its "sell by date" then as well), and the transition from it into "Kashmir" was certainly thrilling. The '77 versions of it were also reasonably concise apart from the last few shows in Los Angeles and the Seattle show.
It just seems kind of antithetical to the "cut the waffle" approach to the rest of the 1980 setlist. It would have been very interesting to see what the North American setlists would have looked like had Bonham not passed. I'm sure "cutting the waffle" in America would have taken much more restraint...
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On 7/28/2019 at 2:09 PM, Cosmic_Equilibrium said:
The Pseudonym remaster is the one to go for as far as this show is concerned. I must admit that I have never really given this show much of a chance as IMO the recording just sounds far too thin and tinny. There is just no bass or power to it. I genuinely can't understand why people acclaim it as one of the best audience recordings ever, to my ears it's really lacking for the reasons I just gave.
However the Pseudonym remaster does go some way towards giving it more weight.
Aren't the assertions of "best audience recording ever" usually in reference to the first night? The 24th is definitely the better performance, but the 23rd is an all-time great recording sound-wise.
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On 5/30/2020 at 1:30 AM, pluribus said:
Slumpy made one years ago, and it had the usual problems...drift between the sources, comb filtering, etc.
I would check out multi-cam projects merge of the audience sources and the soundboard.
19 hours ago, Nutrocker said:Slumpy😆 I heard that thing, as I remember by the end of it was completely out of sync and sounded like a fuckin' mess...his Seattle '77 "matrix" isn't much better. Christ, those things are old now, fifteen years at least- better sources and technology have become available since to actually make better matrices of some of these shows possible.
Thanks guys!
8 hours ago, William Austin said:This show really does not have a definitive version out there (that I've heard at least). Which is a shame because it's one of the best of the tour.
I think Nite Owl would be the man for the job. His matrixes are the best I've ever heard... everything he has touched so far turned to gold.
That's sort of what I'd gathered. I agree, it's a shame.
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Does anybody know if a matrix has been made of the 5/31/73 Los Angeles show? I have the audience recording, which sounds really good, but I know there's also a partial soundboard (which I've listened to bits and pieces of here and there). It seems like too good of an audience recording to not make a matrix with, but I can't seem to find if one has been made or not...
If anyone knows of one and can point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated!
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13 hours ago, Nutrocker said:
Gawd help me, I'm going to try and give the Landover '77 shows a listen this week for the first time in years, probably😆 Played a bit of the May 25 soundboard this morning...even that performance seemed off, like the 26 and 28 are. What the hell happened in the three days between Fort Worth and Landover?
Incidentally, folks, at the moment I am trying to compile all the 1977 alternate source recordings for some sort of a project (not sure what yet...) I have most of the alternate sources, but not all...
You're a brave soul! 😂 I've only ever cherry-picked the first three, and I think even that was just to listen to those marathon versions of "Over The Top" on the 26th and 28th for the historical significance. I just take a '77 break between Ft. Worth and the last night in Landover 😆 It does make you wonder what happened during that three-day break, because they were smoking in Ft. Worth.
New York and Los Angeles 1977 Shows Divided Into Pairs
in Led Zeppelin Live
Posted · Edited by Bonzo_fan
I've been thinking of a bit of a goofy hypothetical as I've been listening this week: if the New York and Los Angeles runs were divided into pairs comprised of the first night of each, second night of each and so on and you could only pick one, which pair would you choose?
I think I would have to go with the fifth night of each because to me, the gap between June 13 and the other New York shows is much bigger than the separation between the Top 4 Los Angeles shows. A better recording of June 8 would make it a tougher call since June 22 is my favourite show of the year, but for now I'm going with the two penultimate shows.
Also, for argument's sake let's assume that we have all 12 shows complete and in the same excellent sound quality -- 12 soundboards, 12 Millard's, 12 multi-tracks...whichever is easier for you to imagine. I realize that the current sound quality (June 8) or completeness (June 14) can make it hard to judge, though...