beatbo
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Posts posted by beatbo
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What does it matter when I heard Jansch? (So, you wouldn't have heard of Bert Jansch without Page? Well, that's your own lack of music history)
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dude, why so mad? you're starting to sound like the guy that stabbed george harrison...
oh, you're welcome, cookie!
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And your point is? Page talked about Davy Graham too, and guess what, he stole from him as well.
So, you wouldn't have heard of Bert Jansch without Page? Well, that's your own lack of music history.
this is pretty funny, cookie, and for some reason, violently angry. i hope you don't mind, but i snipped out the bullshit in your post, and it didn't leave alot.
i'll keep it short: slash can appear on the superbowl broadcast and perform jimi hendrix's arrangement of the star spangled banner and would not have to pay jimi's estate a cent (or acknowledge or credit him). and his sister would scream like a bitch almost half as loud as you but it wouldn't mean anything because he didn't write the song. come monday, tons of people would tell 10 year old slash fans that he was playing the hallowed arrangement of jimi hendrix and hopefully a slew of those kids would look it up on you tube and possibly download the woodstock mp3. it's a fact. sorry.
if you say knew about bert jansch before you heard led zeppelin 1 and you were born and live in the united states, i'm calling you a liar. not stephen stills or neil young. you. once again, sorry.
point? doesn't matter. you can tell by your posts that your missing the most important ones and no matter what anybody says, you always will.
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What keeps being confused here is that people keep denying Page's theft. Stop fussing over who wrote the original vocal melody to the Blackwaterside song. It doesn't matter here.
Nor does any attempt at the excuse of "so and so stole from someone, so it's okay that Page stole from someone else".
Jansch's arrangement of the melody into Blackwaterside was unique to Jansch. And Page copied Jansch's version note for note when he put it on Zep I. End of story. You cannot confuse Jansch's guitar playing with the monotone singing versions of Briggs or Cameron. That's like comparing a Tricylce to a Ferrari. Yes, they both have wheels. Yes, Jansch used the foundation of the Blackwaterside song as his basis. There is no secret there. But he kept the song title the same, and he had played with Briggs live, so it's not as if he was some outsider taking the song. In any case, the song origins are neither here nor there in the context of Page's theft, because all of the ornamental guitar playing was unique to Jansch.
Page lifted it straight out from Jansch's guitar version. You want further proof? Listen to that transition that Page does after every version of White Summer that he performed live in 1977-79. Here that sliding raga riff Page would do just before Kashmir? That riff was Jansch's, found at the very end of Jansch's version of Blackwaterside. Page didn't put that riff on Zep I, but he played it live hundreds of times.
There was no magic "rearrangement" of Jansch's version. All Page did was add some Indian drums and take out the vocals. Complete copy. But remember that Page was obsessed with Jansch's record, just as he was with Davy Graham.
Speaking of which, please take the time to give Davy Graham his dues as well, and see further the connection between Page and his theft of his contemporary guitarists. Page did not compose White Summer. That song is a composite of Davy Graham's "She Move Thru the Fair", Jansch's "Casbah", and Graham's "Mustapha". It was Graham who invented DADGAD tuning. Not Jansch, and not Page.
This argument gets old, because it's always eclipsed by the the needless discussion over Briggs and the Blackwaterside melody origins. The Briggs side has nothing to do with Page's lift of Jansch's version. The melody could've been written by John Lennon for all anyone needs to know. The point is that by the time the melody got to Jansch, Jansch did something with it that had never been done before. He invented a very complex and distinct fingerpicking guitar arrangement to it. Page came along and nicked the arrangement from start to finish and claimed it as his own, just as he did with Davy Graham's work.
jimmy page talked about bert jansch at length many times after the release of the 1st album and always pointed him out as folk guitar god. without page, i'd have never heard of bert. thank you, jimmy. as for bitching about credits on songs that neither of them wrote, it is really about clearances, which fall to lawyers who specialize in such law, which either gets the artist paid, credited, or sued. and in the grand scheme of things, i'd say bert came out alright on this...
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<snip>
Yeah, they should have done the right thing with the credits - of course - but that's law issues, and a lot less interesting than the musical development itself, which really mirrors how music always used to develop before the modern obsession with ownership, copyright and all that. And it mirrors how music really still develops in spite of it all. Anne Briggs put it really well:
[A]ll this [borrowing and influencing], it’s been done throughout history. It’s how music develops. When people sang for pleasure and nobody got any money for it then it was great, no problem. The problems come into it when money starts flying around [...]
excellent post. if we want to, we can pop over to some beatle forums and and call lennon and mccartney out on all their "thefts", but it would be a waste of time and a diversion away from the truly more fascinating issue: the need and reward of developing your art based on your influences...
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As I wrote, it all depends on dates and procedures.
If Jansch published his arrangement at the time the song was recorded, then he has a legitimate claim against Page. If it was done years afterwards, then he can only facepalm.
In any cases, no matter in what year he decided to have his arrangement published, the arrangement is protected as would be an original song (not the recording, which is another kind of right entirely, but the arrangement) against all claims by anyone.
My feeling is that Page's "arrangement" is in a gray area, a period within which Jansch failed to have his arrangement published.
this is a bunch of BS. and, i'm happy to state, if it weren't for jimmy page, no one in the states would even know who bert jansch is. oh, and publishing an "arrangement" will do more for making sure you get paid for your recording than it will for endowing you to any money from someone elses rendition of a traditional tune. that is a very important point.
i would like to add that i personally believe that peter grant was issued an edict from jimmy page at the beginning of zep: do what thou wilt to make sure i don't slog across the world and sell millions of albums and go home penniless (like the yardbirds). this philosophy manifested itself in the publishing as "claim everything and make 'em ask for it back". even robert copped to conversations about songs and credits and the band just let it ride...
one last thing. i love your posts and i understand your position but i've enjoyed many debates and conversations on this subject and swandown knows his skinny. if you truly want a clear picture of the situation instead of only holding on to what you believe is right, talk nice to swandown and he may share some of his substantial reseach and sources on this subject. he may sound like a jimmy page fan, too, but don't let that fool you: he is. but he's no apologist...
beat
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When did Chris Welch play congas with Zeppelin? Anyone know the specific date (I'm assuming 1970) and place?
hi, george...
to this end, i can only pose a question: was welch onstage 6/30/80 in frankfurt, germany during the 'wll' free-for-all that included phil carson on bass?
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Hi Connyfogle,
Satan is the Old Dyslexic way of spelling Santa.
Regards, Danny
hilarious!
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Hi Janet,
Can you confirm which one please? I do know that his "Birthday Suit" isn't on show anymore since he found it impossible to get out all the wrinkles and creases.
Regards, Danny
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excellent thread. keep 'em coming!
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Awww, you think you're insulting me. Precious.
quite the contrary. that would be like pressure washing a waterfall...
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Zoso means "stop asking what Zoso means".
shouldn't you be in munchkinland with a house on top of you, witchypoo?
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here you are....bottom right hand corner.
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she can play....
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Hi Tom kid,
You might just have saved me from an embarrasing moment there, i did a cut and past job from your thread, i just hope nobody saw the join, most people are asleep now so i might have just gotten away with it dont you think?
Then again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Retards, Danny
Hi beatbo, nice of you to drop in, hows it going mate?
hey, danny! miss ya, man!
forgot to mention that i have prolly bought the home version of this film 20 times...
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every friday night at the cinema 4 in carbondale, illinois for 6 years. we would buy the record cleaner "rush" in the little black bottle and huff it during "d&c". the only spot i wasn't crazy about is during "tsrts" and the band is cooking so friggin' hot and page is tearing it up and we get the boat, the beach, and robert. but that aside, i've watched this thing for decades and still love it. the soundtrack, too....
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Sorry folks had a brain cramp ^^^
Was going to ask Beatbo where he was golfing
mississippi national in gautier, ms. very nice course, wide open, not too much swamp and short, hard greens. lots of excellent birdie opportunities for a long ball hitter like me.
falling oaks, the beau rivage course is going to host a PGA senior tour event. it is north of biloxi and a very nice course....
any pics of courses you play at, ally?
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that's all folks. until ZFF can post for himself somewhere, i will speak for him:
"ROCK ON!"
Are you his lawyer? Nothing meant, I have no beef with the guy, just it was sort of a dramatic scene when he left and there was a big discussion about it (I didn't really take much part in that).
I'm here to chat and talk about Led Zeppelin and the other thing's that come up, not looking to be in a internet soap opera.
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it's been awhile, so here's a few....
golf weekend:
my idea of backyarding: i'm in the zoso shirt
me playing dr. treves in "the elephant man" biloxi, ms. :
everybody has an elvis moment. this was mine:
"hurlyburly" revival in chicago....
that's all folks. until ZFF can post for himself somewhere, i will speak for him:
"ROCK ON!"
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Have you had an opportunity to read the article about the releases I posted a link to? In the event you haven't, it posits that the entire package will fall into the hands of the public at large in one form or another. Maybe not in a way that's unprecedented since file sharing is nothing new but the potential is certainly there for it to be distributed in some very new and exciting ways.
As for the actual packaging, I can't say I'm much of a fan of the cardboard sleeves. For such a pricey set it seems like they could have at least sprung for some inlay trays to house the CDs.
i'm with you on that. that's too much money to watch the whole set fall apart unless you never play them. the only thing is to pull the discs, burn them, put'em back and put 'em up...
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a great jazz thread on a rock forum is so hard to find. leave it to ledzeppelin.com....
my mother was a jazz fan. born not 70 miles from new orleans, she knew some good sounds when she heard them. her faves were the big swing bands: benny goodman, duke ellington, count basie...all good songs, arrangements and performances. and it lit me up righteously.
there were also some great vocalists in that genre: billie holliday, anita o'day, ella fitzgerald (my personal favorite).
i think the release of the film "the sting" (1973)and it's propulsion of ragtime into the mainstream turned me on to scott joplin. the music was fabulous if you could find the obscure but i found the differences in sound were small and this made for a short-termrevelation for me.
but, then came miles. as i began to appreciate my parents record collection even more in my high school years, i found my mom's columbia miles collection: milestones, kinda blue, seven steps to heaven, sketches of spain. man, this made me a bebop and cool jazz fan for the rest of my life.
miles caused me to look around him and look backwards: charlie parker, coltrane, diz, johnny hodges, cannonball, bill evans. there was alot of great music in the 50's and 60's.
now, i'm loving several segments of this music and had been for years. but one epiphany remained: pops.
after a week of overspending my psychic and physical resources, i shambled onto a jet taking me from chicago to dallas. i looked a wreck and had an aisle seat which allowed me to stick my oversized legs into the aisle. all i wanted was to be able to nap and ride out the tarmac delay. it was louis armstrongs 100th birthday. i put the headphones on and there was a wonderful program being played that lasted several hours and took me from the hot 5 and hot 7 to all points outward in his career. the music stilled my soul and gave it repose. i walked off of the plane having had the finger of God directing the concert in my mind. pops' music literally did that for me and i have been a huge fan ever since.
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Beatbo, i just googled Maggie Bell and saw her on utube, she really cuts up rough now, well she would wouldnt she ? She is from Glasgow.
I aint putting any links on here, if you wanna see for yourself be my guest, but when she sung the Theme tune for Taggert she was what every Rock Chick should sound like, and she was on the Swan Song Record Label as well.
Kind Regards, Danny
well, i'll post her website...i go there every once in awhile to see what's up:http://www.maggiebell.co.uk/
i would put up the link for stone the crows "penicillin blues" but i'm too lazy to search for it...
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Hi ZFF,
For me it has to be Tina Turner, if you regard her as Rock that is, other than that as a Male Show Van-ist i'm at a loss to say.
Regards, Danny
i'm with you. tina on her worst night is as good as the rest, and on her best night could mop the floor with the lot of 'em. (paraphrasing john paul jones) i think janis would agree. see stanley booth's book for an opinion on what janis thought of tina.
tina eating rod stewarts lunch on saturday night live...
does joni mitchell sing rock? i love her anyway...
if you can vote for joni, then emmylou should squeak in for her duet on "love hurts" with gram parsons...
i loves me some maggie bell, too!
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Hey ZFF and beatbo, how long is the drive between San Antonio and Biloxi, can't be that far between right? I always wanted to travel to Louisianna and Mississippi and the area around there. I'm a huge fan of the blues artists from that area and I really want to go and see all those places where those guys came from, Lightnin Slim, Lonesome Sundown, Slim Harpo, Little Walter and Lazy Lester.. I'm born on the wrong side of this frickin' planet, you know!
come on over and stop by. i will pour you a glass of sweet tea, put on some tunes to get us ready and we'll search the night for funky blues in swampy places. bring your mojo hand and guitar and i will bring my blues harp and we'll busk on the street for change and good vibes.
an authentic offer!
your buddy,
beat
Not so hot Zep songs
in Zep Polls
Posted
fool in the rain is one of their best songs, it shows zeppelins "spread". the drumming is killer, the singing spectacular, and the samba break to die for. the guitar synth solo is low-fi but fits the song. what's not to like? if i'm at a stop light and the whistle blows, the rules in my car is everbody out and samba until the breaks over or the lights change. true story...