Ach, Aerosmith didn't need Jimmy Page, they had Jack Douglas...the Rocks album, for example sounds heavy as shit. Great production on that one. As far as the influence Zeppelin's production sound had on other artists, I'd look no further than some of the 'big drum sounds' bands started going after in the studio as a direct result of the bone crushing drum sounds captured on Zeppelin records...compare the drum sounds on albums by -just off the top of me head- The Who or Genesis to the 'dead' sounding studio drum sounds coming out of L.A. and New York studios in the 70's. The Big Drum Sound is totally an English invention.

Like The Beatles and Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin is a total 'album' band. Their records -especially being 'anti single' and all- were all conceived as something to flow...mess with the running order of the tracks, for example, it just sounds wrong...like, you know "The Rain Song" is going to follow "The Song Remains The Same" or "Kashmir" is the next song after "Trampled Under Foot", etc (this was my issue with the 4 and 2 CD box sets Page originally assembled about twenty years ago, shuffling the songs around)- with Zeppelin it's all or nothing...and the thing with the albums is 99.9 % of the songs are good (I can only think of a handful of tracks such as "Hats Off To Roy Harper" or "Hot Dog" that are true Zeppelin "WTF?!" moments and even those can have their charms)...but all that comes down to Zeppelin's songwriting and arranging talent, not necessarily the sound production, which, yer right, is just as much of a part of Zeppelin's musical appeal. Their records sound good, there really isn't a bad production in the lot- some of the overload on a couple of the LZII tracks or some of the murky, buried vocals mixes on In Through The Out Door- would be the closest you could come to sound production flaws; otherwise Page and his engineers created a trademark sound which has often been imitated but never really duplicated. How many rap/hip hop songs have sampled John Bonham's drums? There's a reason for that, they're some of the best, most 'real' drum sounds ever captured on record, usually done with a minimum of microphones and feeding off the room ambience (sorry, that's sound production talk in pretty layman terms ) Why does Jimmy Page's guitar and JPJ's bass sound so huge? Feeding the instrument through multiple amplifiers and recording a mix of them all, as well as multiple overdubs on Page's part. Plant's vocals (particularly in the later years), all double tracked and mixed with at least a couple of different kinds of slapback echo...you hear this combination of sounds and not only does it occur to you that it sounds good, you immediately recognize the sound as being Led Zeppelin. And as Producer -though I'm sure Plant, Jones and Bonham had their share of suggestions as well- the sound is essentially Jimmy Page's 'vision'...I'd reckon the sound of Led Zeppelin's albums is as much a part of Page's legacy as his guitar playing...especially where Zeppelin fans are concerned.

Jimmy Page is very underrated when it comes to his production skills. Sure. having great engineers behind the board helped (Eddie Kramer, Keith Harwood, Glyn/Andy Johns etc) but even Page conceded that he liked to switch up his engineers from project to project to keep the overall sound his. No, Page's productions aren't 'slick' like a Steely Dan album, or as stuffed with effects as The Beatles (though there are moments on the second album and Houses Of The Holy that are pretty effect-laden), but the man clearly has a vision as far as what his music should sound like on record, and was determined to get it. Though I'll never understand how he let the sloppy as hell playing on "Hot Dog" and "Fool In The Rain" pass...IMO "Hot Dog" in particular is a moment where Jimmy could have used somebody who could say, "Uh, Jimmy...maybe you should give that intro/solo another try..." But still, two songs out of how many? Fuck it...Zeppelin wouldn't sound like Zeppelin if it was anybody else in the producer's chair. And Jimmy Page deserves all the credit for that, and rightfully so.

When it's somebody who lived their life through their art like John Lennon did...yes. When you've read up a bit on the guy like I have, something like the Plastic Ono Band album doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. And I won't even get into the flavour of the month politicizing he got into on the Some Time In New York City album... Spoken like a true Lennon fanboy Amen, Charles. Just remember that some sacred cows just cannot be bashed, though Except John Lennon, of course... Sure, some great artists are pretty detestable in a lot of ways (let's face it, Jimmy Page wasn't exactly a saint, either) but fortunately now and again they'll pull a work of art out of the hat that transcend their personal transgressions.

In other words, the audience tape is out there, jpenzabene...if you can't get the torrent over at 'ten pennies' shoot me a PM.

That version upped at ten pennies is the best version of the Pontiac show in circulation...if you don't have it, get it. Ditto for the version of the Atlanta '77 show also put up over there today.

What, Lennon was free to be an alcoholic, junkie, wife beating, child neglecting hypocrite with severe mommy and daddy issues? The guy who wrote "Imagine no possessions" yet recorded it in the state of the art studio he had built in his mansion? Lying in bed for a week holding flowers and saying "Give Peace A Chance" is pretty fuckin' easy when yer smacked out of yer brains like John and Yoko were at the time. You have to wonder what Julian Lennon thought about the sentiments his dad put forth in the song "Mother", considering Julian was just about as abandoned by his father as John was by his. Or how Paul and George probably scoffed at the idea of John Lennon -easily the most 'well-off' Beatle growing up- writing a song called "Working Class Hero". How 'bout all the chicks Lennon and the boys banged on the road -misogyny at its finest- only to see John emerge as an early 70's champion of feminism? One of the greatest songwriters of his generation being reduced to being thrown out of L.A. nightclubs with a jamrag stuck on his forehead...I could go on, but my, John Lennon was a very fucked up individual, and yet people canonize the guy, which is something that probably makes John cringe in the afterlife... I've probably read just about every Beatles/Lennon book there is...and quite frankly I wish I hadn't, because the more I learned about John Lennon the less respect I had for him as a person. Great singer/songwriter (mediocre musician, though), but a very tortured soul. Probably the best example I can think of of "Love the art, not the artist"...I'm sure my sentiments will piss a few people off, but nobody likes to see the Emperor without their clothes.

There is a matrix, but I wouldn't call it decent The Seattle video soundtrack/AUD matrix was done by the same guy who did the 26/5/77 SBD/AUD matrix...it's not exactly in sync in places (a "Sloppy Slumpy" matrix as I call it). Really, Sue, if yer innarested in hearing Seattle from a different perspective, just track down the 1st gen "Bill B" AUD recording, I greatly prefer it to the dry-ass sounding video soundtrack. Count me as another person who can't stand the pro-shot video. Three and a half hours of Jimmy Page looking like some kinda zombie out of a George Romero movie isn't my idea of a good time...

I busted out & cranked up the 10/6/77 show while watching the Vancouver Canucks get their collective ass whupped by Anaheim last night...I'll tell ya, Zeppelin certainly put on a better performance than the fuckin' Canucks did (they lost to the Disney owned Mighty Ducks 7-3)

We can count ourselves lucky in a way that there is no comparable single outlet of unreleased material from Zeppelin as there is with, say, Bob Dylan's Basement Tapes or The Beatles' Get Back sessions...I reckon a lot of our heads would explode trying to analyse such a massive treasure trove of material...

I also tend to lean toward this theory. It's obvious that both Jason and Jimmy are collectors. Fingers have also been pointed towards SHOWCO employees over the years as well, though I've no idea how much substance those particular claims have.

You have a good one too, Sticks- in case you haven't figured it out, I believe everything you've said. I've no doubt of yer sincerity, because it doesn't look like you have any axe to grind or a dog in the hunt (how's that for mixing metaphors! ) Sheeit, I actually just spent the last hour or so perusing some of the archive discussions regarding this topic over at RO...sure enough, I saw a few posts that simply said "EDIT" (i.e. the post itself was deleted...surprise!), which were most likely of the nature you were describing. I believe I even saw yer name in some of the discussions, so obviously you've been round the block, and have my respect. Sure! Let's hire the same SEALS team that got Bin Laden, maybe they'll make a movie about it, Kathyrn Bigelow's next Oscar-nominated project! Somebody, call Tom Clancy, I got a great idea for his next book: President Ryan calls in The Campus or Rainbow or one of those groups to retrieve a stash of old Led Zeppelin tapes and videos before a multinational terrorist organization can get their hands on them, so they can sell them to bootleggers in order to fund the terrorist's next attack! Love it! This shit writes itself, it really does... Toss in about six hundred pages of boring technical jargon nobody cares about, and you be in like Flynn, bo! In fact, fuck Tom Clancy and Kathryn Bigelow...this sounds like a job for 007- what's Daniel Craig up to these days?! (back to serious mode) Thing is, mielazul, as ridiculous as the idea sounds, it wouldn't surprise me one iota if people's lives have been threatened or outright thievery of the kind you just suggested (in jest) has been seriously considered in the past over these kinds of mythical uncirculating collectibles. Especially if serious money is involved in what they're after.

...and I'd be willing to bet that every bit of that discussion, from the post with the screengrabs to the ensuing 'beating' were stricken from the RO record (i.e. deleted from the thread, or the thread was deleted altogether) faster than you can say 'censorship'. The mods over at RO have been notorious for this kind of thing over the years, probably at least in part because some of them don't want to be reminded of their own past transgressions (And before anybody tries bashing me for knocking the RO site -which I'm not, I'm just stating a fact- let me just say that if you've done any sort of homework on the subject at all you know that what I say is true, even though the RO site's reputation has improved greatly over the past few years- either that or they've just learned a little more about discretion...) I have heard similar stories regarding the supposed Houston '77 video from time to time (that the video was shown at parties). I'm sure He shoulda said "Fuck it!" and shared it anyway... I don't doubt they'd remember it, but I bet they'd be in denial mode at this point (at least, if they want to remain moderators, if not banned from the site altogether), either saying "Where'd you hear that?" or -even better- "Who told you that?!" These are the kinds of games that get played, folks...again, no bashing, this is a pretty well known fact... (And, just for the record, it's not as if the same kind of bullshit doesn't go down on this site from time to time...)

I never heard that particular story -or rumour, to be more accurate- but I believe that is the film that was shared out amongst a group of 'elite' traders. Again, if somebody were to give me some uncirculating goodie but told me I had to keep it to myself, I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. I'd rather not have the thing at all if it meant I couldn't pass it along. I think I'd rather have cancer than be considered a member of some goddamn elitist clique. I've got a liberator mentality, not a hoarder mentality- my parents taught me to share...

I still don't believe kdh even has a tape...

I believe it has, it only circulates via an elite group of collectors, though, if memory serves. Could be bullshit, but who knows. It's like with this mythical 'black and white' Houston '77 video...unless someone is willing to post a screenshot or something, call me a skeptic. Sorry, I'm not really inclined to take anybody's mere word about anything in this community, without some sort of hard evidence -like a sample or a screenshot- to back up the claims. And I think this idea of only sharing something with a select few is fucking asinine, incidentally- either share it with everybody, or keep it completely dark.

Indeed...it's what became of the fuckin' film that raises all the questions! Who knows, maybe the Pontiac proshot will finally make an appearance in time for our grandkids to enjoy it, if the world doesn't blow up before then...

I reckon I'm probably more infamous than famous... Correct about the guy keeping the recorder under his seat on 23/4/77...notice how the sound on the recording clears up when he's checking how much tape he has left; the dummy shoulda just kept the damn recorder in his lap or something. Underneath all that distortion is the first really good 1977 show! Yeah...like I said earlier, there's at least three audience recordings for the Seattle show, which was almost as big as Pontiac. I know there were some good tapers in the Detroit area in those days...it is indeed hard to believe that only one recording has ever surfaced for the Pontiac show, but that's all we've got so far...at least a 1st gen copy popped up a couple years back, it's a damnsight better than the old Hot Rods In Pontiac boot.

Ah, yer a true '77 fan thru and thru, Sue...I remember some guy ranting on me something along the lines of, "How can you judge the Pontiac show based on that recording??!!" I mean, it's not that bad... Are there any '77 shows you haven't heard, Sue? Didja get the PM I sent ya, Strider?

Might I ask, outta curiosity, why Pontiac is yer favourite?

You don't have the Pontiac audience recording, Strider? We should talk...it's not the greatest tape by any stretch of the imagination, but it's definitely worth hearing... Bong Man's firsthand description of the atmosphere of the gig is spot on, BTW- the audience tape certainly captures it in all its rockets red glare style glory!

Do you have the audience recording, Sue?

Strider, reading the huge ass "Freezer's Revenge" discussion over at the site where the NOLA '73 audience tape was first uploaded was the single most revealing document I have ever read regarding tape trading and bootleggers. Some of the shitty double dealing and outright betrayal discussed in that thread had a lot to do with forming my basic opinions not only about how low Zeppelin collectors can go but the hobby in general. I admit I'm pretty cynical at the best of times, but you can't help but become a bit of a cynic after reading about that 'fiasco' as you put it (and it's as good of a description as any). And, as I've said before, Freezer wasn't the bad guy in that scenario that so many people wanted to make him out to be; he knew exactly what he was doing and I must admit that I salute the man for bringing it all out into the open (I miss that guy!) I think "psycho" is too harsh a word, though...although I will concede that it sounds like some of these so-called collectors do have some mental issues to work out. As I've said before, these tapes only hold value to maybe 0.00001% of the population. Anybody who uses tape trading/collecting as some kind of a status symbol in their lives clearly has some inadequacy issues they need to get sorted out pronto. Why people insist on lying, spreading bullshit rumours or outright cheating other collectors is something I'll never figure out for the life of me. They're just concert recordings, y'all. The fate of the world doesn't rest on these things...

Say, I was just perusing some of my archive posts, and I was wondering why yer name looked so familiar to me, ledhed...we've danced before on this forum... So, speaking of hoarding tapes, ledhed, whatever became of the Houston '77 video you claimed to have seen back in May : (go to post #88 in that discussion for a look at more of ledhed's bullshit claims...some things never change, I see...)

That point has been made before, David: many other bands had their Houston Summit gigs taped (and I don't believe Aerosmith for example was using video screens in 1977...The Rover's contention that there is no video of the Zeppelin '77 Houston show is based on the fact that there was no video screen at the gig ala Seattle or Pontiac). So the point is, videos and/or soundboards of all these other Houston gigs has popped up over the years, why not the Led Zeppelin concert? At least we did get the soundboard... Correct, I've seen it; it is indeed a major upgrade to the unofficial Who '75 Summit videos...and say what you will about Jon Astley -a lot of people tend to detest his mixing/mastering style and as a result seem to despise the man himself- but he did a good job restoring the audio as well in this particular case. I would be inclined to say Jimmy Page does not have the Houston '77 multitracks (I believe it has been established that there are no 1977 tour multitrack recordings). I believe The Who did have their own mobile truck (possibly even Ronnie Lane's, of Physical Graffiti fame...) Quite frankly at this juncture I'd settle for an alternate (superior) audience tape to pop up...there have been rumours of such a thing existing over the years. After all, it's pretty fuckin' difficult to believe that out of 76000 people or however many there were in the Silverdome on the night that only one guy had a rig running (compared to the similarly large Seattle show where there are at least three circulating audience recordings)