led zeppelin and black magik

[Texas Melanie]

I have a couple of questions regarding Thelema:

1. Is it male only?

2. What are the attitudes toward women? I would assume that Thelemites are much more progressive in their outlook toward women today than Crowley.

3. Is Thelema similar to the Freemasons in the construct and basic order of hierarchy and rituals?

4. How does one become a Thelemite?

[Texas Melanie]

Major Major...come here...

I feel better now.

[turnthepage]

I don't care what Jimmy did or does, it wouldn't change the way I feel about the music, and could never change the years of memories I had b/c of it. And just b/c he liked Crowley, that doesn't mean that he agreed with him on everything. So, do what thou wilst.....personally, I think it's a great point, especially when you look at where it came from. Christianity is a form of bondage when it comes to all its restrictions/commandments. Not going to get into this any further, I just wanted to say that it doesn't matter if he's into black magic or not. Those who love him and Zeppelin will love them all the same no matter what their spiritual or other beliefs! Lets let God do the judging!

[magerogue]

Why do people care so much about this?? When i got into Led Zep back in the day all these people said "Oh, they are this and that because of Stairway to Heaven backwards, etc..." At first i thought it was bulltshit made by the media or even Zepp themselves as a way to promote theyre albums. But then i thought. what if they really are? Let them (in this case, Jimmy) be... Who give a serious sh*t? They could all be having sex with each other and i still wouldn't give a crap about it, as long as they are making good music and interesting albums. Everyone's allowed to be different, and nobody should judge others for theyre beliefs.

[walter's walker]

I have a couple of questions regarding Thelema:

1. Is it male only?

2. What are the attitudes toward women? I would assume that Thelemites are much more progressive in their outlook toward women today than Crowley.

3. Is Thelema similar to the Freemasons in the construct and basic order of hierarchy and rituals?

4. How does one become a Thelemite?

1. No, it is female as well as male.

2. Per the Book of the Law, "Every man and every woman is a Star." (That is to say, a shining light in the sky, not a Hollywood slag.) Yes, we're much more progressive than in Crowley's day-- Uncle Al died 64 years ago, we've come a long way since then. But that said, for his time, Crowley was very progressive as far as women's rights were concerned.

3. The Ordo Templi Orientis is similar to the Freemasons, but the Ordo Templi Orientis is a Mystic Fraternal Society that descends from Masonic Tradition. The O.T.O. has not claimed to raise Men (or Women) as Masons since 1926. The O.T.O. is but one Thelemic Order/Group/Society. It is the largest such society in the world, and has Chapters/Lodges in 20+ countries around the world, but it is not the only Thelemic Order/Group/Society around, although it is the most accessible.

4. One becomes a Thelemite when one decides that one *is* a Thelemite. This presumes that one knows what a Thelemite *is*. There is no test or catechism to memorize, no group or organization that one has to join. Jimmy's not a member of any group or organization that I'm aware of, but he's friends with the highest-ranking members of several Thelemic groups/organizations.

Aleister Crowley did not "found" Thelema. Thelema, as we know it, was first created by the French comedy writer Francois Rabelais in the late 17th Century, in his comedy of "Gargantua and Pantagruel", where the Giant, Gargantua, founds The Abbey of Theleme, the members of whom it was said "All their life was spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure. They rose out of their beds when they thought good; they did eat, drink, labour, sleep, when they had a mind to it and were disposed for it. None did awake them, none did offer to constrain them to eat, drink, nor to do any other thing; for so had Gargantua established it. In all their rule and strictest tie of their order there was but this one clause to be observed, Do What Thou Wilt;

because men that are free, well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies, have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honour. Those same men, when by base subjection and constraint they are brought under and kept down, turn aside from that noble disposition by which they formerly were inclined to virtue, to shake off and break that bond of servitude wherein they are so tyrannously enslaved; for it is agreeable with the nature of man to long after things forbidden and to desire what is denied us."

Nor was Crowley the first to draw from this book, that motto, "Do What Thou Wilt" was first adopted by the Medmenhan Monks and Knights of St. Francis of Wycombe in the 1750's, better known today as Sir Francis Dashwood's notorius Hell Fire Club, about which almost as many lies have been told as of Aleister Crowley.

Crowley did not "found" the O.T.O.; the O.T.O. appears to have been begun in 1895 or so, as a reliquary of ancient Masonic Rites, an Academia Masonica. Crowley joined the O.T.O. in 1910, he became a 10th Degree, the Supreme and Holy King of Britain, Ireland and the Ionas, in 1912. Crowley claimed that the Head of the Order, Theodore Reuss, resigned from his position in Crowley's favor in 1922. Reuss's letter designating Crowley his successor as O.H.O. has not been found, but no credible documentation has surfaced which would indicate that Reuss ever designated any alternative successor. This has long been a bone of contention among several rival groups, notably the Swiss O.T.O. and the Franco-Haitian O.T.O.

Edited February 15, 2012 by walter's walker

[Texas Melanie]

Thank you for your answers. I watched a program about the Freemasons, trying to dispell rumors, myths and outright lies that surround the organization. It reminded me of Thelema and was wondering if they had ties to each other.

BTW, your "location" in your avatar is very interesting. What gives?

[walter's walker]

More ties than the Masons know, but that's the nature of the beast.

Ah, my location! As the late Senator Cleghorn would have said, "It's a joke, Son!" I *do* live in Houston, Texas, in fact, I live about three miles down the street from the old Houston Summit, where Led Zeppelin, Page & Plant, The Who, Black Sabbath and many other bands performed some legendary gigs (it's now Lakewood Baptist Church) and the Enron Hubbard Building is a double-entendre on Enron Corp. (that famously went belly-up here in Houston 6 or 7 years ago) and L. Ron Hubbard, the con-man who made many millions with Scientology, while the 13th Floor Elevators were a very legendary Texas Psychedelic band from the mid-60's. And there are a lot of skyscrapers here, known as "The Zircon Energy Building," "The Reliant Energy Building", "The Shell Oil Tower" and so on-- energy and religion are what sell big here in Texas, so I combined the names of two of the biggest cons in those trades-- Enron Corp. and L. Ron Hubbard, to make the fictional Enron Hubbard Building: Houston is tied with Chicago for being the 4th largest city in Amerika.

[walter's walker]

Their song "Stairway to Heaven" carries the reference "May Queen," which is purportedly the name of a poem written by Crowley.

BBBZZZZZZZZZT! I'm sorry, but you're incorrect: Crowley never wrote a poem called "May Queen". Google it, you'll see a lot of people *claim* he did, but none of those sites actually cite the poem in question-- and that's because he never wrote it. He *did* write a poem called "Chicago May", the subject of which was an Irish-born Thief and Conwoman who rose to fame in the early 20th Century in Chicago, New York, London, (and Paris, if memory serves)-- here's some of it: "The great sow snores, / Blowing out spittle through her blubber lips, / Champagne and lust still oozing from the pores, / Of her fat flanks," charming no? Obviously a point of inspiration for "Stairway To Heaven"...NOT.

[Cuthbert]

Just out of curiosity, how do you really know that Led Zeppelin were not Satanic? I am not saying that I think they were, but how do you really know? Even if they were and Jimmy Page actually came out today and said, Yes, I was/am a Satanist and have practiced Black Magick, would it really matter at this point? Would you (or anyone else) for that matter all of a sudden stop listening to Led Zeppelin? I know that I would not. I love Led Zeppelin for the tremendous body of Music They have given the World. I actually do not care what religion(s) they may or may not have practiced.

Led Zep were not satanic because the only interested in occult was Page, and he was into Crowley, who was a magician but not a Devil worshiper. I also think that Page somehow believes in magick, I think in a interview that the four symbols were sigils, gave strength to their music and somehow worked for them.

I don't believe in this stuff, but if I believed I would say that this "energy" is evident in their concerts.

[walter's walker]

Noble attempt there, Cuthbert, but allow me to clarify on a couple of misconceptions.

Nobody but a real idiot or a total Masochist call *themselves* a "Devil-Worshipper". It's just not a normal point of self-identification among serious occultsts, it's more usually a point of self-identification among the schizophrenic and mentally ill.

"Devil Worshipper" is a perjorative term used by critics against people they are trying to persecute. For example: The Muslims, Christians and Jews of Iraq consider the Yedizi to be "Devil Worshippers", as they hold the Peacock Angel, Melek Tawus, to be the Angel given power over the Earth by God/Allah/JHVH. To the Christians, Jews, and Muslims, in their ignorance of the Yedizi's actual beliefs, Melek Tawus is wrongly equated with Satan, and so they have been accused and persecuted for centuries because they allegedly "worship the Devil".

Crowley certainly was an Occultist. He was not a "Satanist" in the common parlance-- he didn't steal communion wafers, and didn't attend Black Masses officiated by de-frocked Catholic Priests, as was the vouge in 19th Century Paris (for example). He did not deny the existance of Demons, in fact he used the Magic of Solomon to summon and command both Angels *and* Demons to visible appearance (according to reliable witnesses) in a magic circle-- but not to worship them, to get knowledge from them, communication, and to do the Magician's bidding (think of them like the Djinnis or Genies in the Arabian Nights Tales). He achieved the Knowledge and Conversation of his own Holy Guardian Angel, and defeated the Father of Lies, the mighty demon Choronzon, when he crossed the Abyss, according to his Magickal Diaries (you must understand that some of this is symbolic). He is probably the most influential Occultist of the 20th Century, and has *hugely* influenced Rosicrucianism, Astrology, Tarot, Ceremonial Magick, Solomonic Magick, Enochian Magick, and Wicca, just to name a few of the branches of Occult that his writings have shaped and caused to flower.

Jimmy's not a "Satanist" either; neither of the 19th Century Diabolist stripe, nor of the Anton LaVey Ubermensch Atheist variety that has risen in prominence since the founding of the Church of Satan on Walpurgisnacht, 1966. Rock acts like the 80's King Diamond, the 60's-70's Coven (Jinx Dawson's band), the 90's Marylin Manson, now *they* are "real" Satanists (whatever your personal opinion of their music may be) of the Diabolist or Atheist varieties.

There are some Left Hand Path Magicians who seem to be more into Black Necromancy than anything that are calling themselves "Luciferians" these days; only time will tell if they coalesce into an actual Tradition (or Traditions) or are merely another "Church Of The Process" sort of flash in the pan whose criminal activities will guarantee them persecution and prosecution by governmental and religious authorities..