IpMan
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Posts posted by IpMan
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2 hours ago, Balthazor said:
I think the Beatles "boy band" thing is all about the notion that their early fan base seemed to be squealing teenage girls who were almost undoubtedly more interested in the Beatles as personalities than in the music they created. I wouldn't try to make a direct comparison between the Beatles and, say, the Backstreet Boys, for any number of a million obvious reasons, some of which have already been mentioned. But there's no denying that the Beatles appeal to throngs of squealing teenage girls was no different than the appeal of the Backstreet Boys to their throngs of squealing teenage girls. The fact that the Beatles were talented musicians and songwriters was almost irrelevant to that equation, but was certainly relevant to the ability of the Beatles to outgrow and outlive their "boy band" phase and become recognized for their musical talents and accomplishments, something which can't be said for the Backstreet Boys or any of the other cookie-cutter boy bands that keep infecting the pop music scene.
Thank you Sir, this is exactly what I was trying to convey. For me, the Beatles started out as a boy band in the fact that they were a created product of Brian Epstein. Yes, they were talented musicians and writers, but when a manager plucks you from obscurity, completely changes your look and musical style, and then essentially begins to market you, that to me is a boy band concept.
Also, this is why I dared to mention Gerry & the Pacemakers in the same paragraph as the Beatles. I don't know if anyone on the site is of an age where they were in their teens or early 20's around 1963 but Gerry & the Pacemakers were one of those bands that were crazy popular for a few years. Even more so than the Beatles were at the same period as it was them, not the Beatles who scored three consecutive UK #1 singles with their first releases, something the Beatles never did. So, my point was based on popularity more than anything else. Of course the Beatles are a much better group than Gerry, however that was because of what they accomplished over the course of their career, not because of what they accomplished from 63'-64'.
I want to just say this is all my opinion, and unlike another poster here, I am not trying to change anyones opinions and in fact I respect everyone else opinions on this and other matters.
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14 hours ago, SteveAJones said:
That's a rebuttal that fails miserably to rebut. Your getting thrashed in the arena of ideas today. Tap out!
As is typical of you Steve, anyone who disagrees with you fails miserably, that is the typical crux of your arguments.
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25 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:
Of course you would champion the gay manager who died young as the real genius in The Beatles as opposed to the distinguished Sir George Martin. To suggest that if they had broken up pre-Rubber Soul they would have been a footnote says nothing really. Cut the existence of any band that lasted less than ten years in half and I'm sure there are few worth recalling. However, in this case you'd still be wrong as it was The Beatles that put the Mersey sound on the map for the world. "Gerry & The Pacemakers"...GTFOH.
Is there any way you can possibly debate a subject Steve without insulting the person you are debating? I have no idea what you are such a miserable, cranky person but please do not take it out on me or anyone else. The fact you show a homophobic slur in there is just the cherry on your sundae of hate. You are a real piece of work Steve.
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4 hours ago, John M said:
I hear you about the early Beatles but they were superb songwriters and craftsmen. They also played everything in addition to writing most of it, so not really a "boy band". Many of their songs up through the album Help are fantastic, and I think they started to stretch the boundries a bit earlier than Rubber Soul. A year before Rubber Soul they released Beatles for Sale with "I'm a Loser" and "No Reply". In April 65 they released Ticket to Ride. In July 65 they released Help and I'm Down, an amazing gritty, powerful rocker. In August the Help album included "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away." Rubber Soul is great and on the same day it was released (Dec 3, 1965) they put out a double A side single with Day Tripper (one of the early riff based classics) and We Can Work it Out.
One thing about the Beatles is that released so many fantastic singles that never appeared on albums. As another example, in June 1966 two months before Revolver they released one single with BOTH Paperback Writer and Rain !!!
I guess we will have to disagree to a point on this, however they did write catchy tunes early on like you mentioned, but nothing groundbreaking IMO. Plus, much of the Merseybeat stuff was being done by other bands which did that genre better than the Beatles did. If they would have broken up pre-Rubber Soul they would likely have been a footnote in music history, remembered in the same vein as Herman's Hermits or Gerry & The Pacemakers except the latter would be in the prominent position as opposed to the Beatles. Ironically enough, both the Beatles and Gerry & the Pacemakers were from Liverpool and both managed by Brian Epstein. So one could argue the real genius in the Beatles was Epstein, not Lennon or McCartney, at least the pre-Rubber Soul era.
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2 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:
White Englishmen performing black American blues was innovative at the time, and pound for pound The Stones did and still do dwarf The Beatles as bad boys. McCartney can't go more than two days alone (craves a constant love interest), Lennon was totally emasculated and domesticated by Yoko, Harrison was hippy dippy and Ringo was just lucky to be there. Conversely. Brian Jones fathered five children out of wedlock and died young, Mick & Bill ultimately fucked everyone from Bangkok to Baltimore, Keith Richards...well, need I say more? Greatest rock and roll band of all time.
Sorry, I was referring to the period from 63' - 66', I agree the tables turned by 67'. However Lennon, before the emasculation by Yoko, was an extremely violent, and unstable individual would would have easily beat the living shit out of every Stone without raising a sweat. Lennon was just nuts and if it were not for music and Yoko, he would have likely wound up a a thug in either the Kray or Richardson firm's. Before Yoko, Lennon and John Bindon were very similar personalities.
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2 hours ago, gln826 said:
Zeppelin influenced many artists to want to be like Zeppelin...four piece musicianship, bravado, sexuality, big arenas, groupies. Van Halen, Def Leppard, Guns n Roses, etc. all wanted to be Zeppelin as an act, but weren't able to pull it off in a lasting and diverse way.
My sadness is that their style wasn't strong enough to keep hip hop/rap at bay. Those genre have been around longer than late 60s to early 80s hard rock, and for the life of me, I can't understand why the record companies continue to push it.
This is just do not understand, that is, your position. Who cares if Rap / Hip Hop are popular, or will remain so for the next 1,000 years while everything else is virtually forgotten. You sound no different than some 50's era Ward Cleaver bemoaning Elvis & Berry and pondering why swing was not strong enough to keep those hooligans at bay. Every genre has their day in the sun, some longer than others and in the end it does not matter. It's not like once Rap & Hip Hop came about some edict from on high forced people to only listen to Rap & Hip Hop.
Now regarding the Beatles, or what I call, the worlds first boy band. When the Beatles first started out under Brian Epstein, he took a pretty good bar band and formed them into what he thought the public wanted, image and music. They were a product, and for all intent and purpose, a shitty one at that. However they appealed to the masses (just like most shitty boy bands do) and became massive. As far as I am concerned the Beatles as a creative entity did not truly exist prior to Rubber Soul. Rubber Soul was the transitory album between shitty, teen bubble gum pop and truly innovative music. Revolver was their first, fully realized and innovative record. So for me there are three Beatles: the pre-Brian Epstein bar band which had style and integrity; then the early Brian Epstein driven & controlled Beatles which sucked; and finally the latter, band driven pioneers of rock music Beatles who helped change music along with Hendrix, the Yardbirds, Floyd, and Cream.
Zeppelin however started out mostly strong (exception was their first album being mostly covers) and became incredible as writers and composers over time. Their impact cannot be denied, nor can their creativity. This IMO places them in the top six innovative bands of the 60's: The Beatles, Hendrix, The Yardbirds, Cream, Floyd, & Zeppelin in that order. Notice I did not put the Stones on that list. This is because even though they were (notice I stress the word were here) a great band, they were not innovators and did not bring anything new to the table except maybe for image, or rather perceived image. I still get a laugh that the Hamburg Hooligans (Beatles) were considered the good boys while the Stones were considered the bad boys, talk about turning the truth on its head.
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2 hours ago, zepscoda said:
Amy Frederica Brenneman was great on the Leftovers last night...
"So you're wrong, Pop. I'm not Thomas. I'm Judas. Doubting is easy, 'cause doubting costs you nothing. ..But Judas... he was surrounded by people going on and on about how special Jesus was, but he betrayed them anyway. 'Cause he was sure that he believed in something, and he acted on it."
~ Laurie Garvey
That whole episode was great, Scott Glen and Amy Brenneman were the standouts. Just brilliant.
Anyone wanna go scuba diving???
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10 minutes ago, Dane1968 said:
Very unfortunate about Chris. Early reports indicate it was due to clinical depression, something which many artists' suffer through. Depression / bi-polar is a very real medical condition which many outside people seem to ignore or not believe in until it is too late. It matters little if you live in a mansion or on the street. Everyone has troubles in life, and having money and being popular is not the long term answer. Feelings of self worth become amplified, as does self doubt. You try to please everyone else and end up ignoring your own needs.
I have lived with it my whole life and it is mental torture. Why would I tell the world something personal like this? Because society needs to wake up and accept that people are not designed to work 70-hour-weeks, to be stressed out daily, to have everything be perfect, to hide their emotions because it is considered weak, and on and on. I am male and have no concerns about admitting any of this.
How many people have to die to realize that life should be enjoyable and not a constantly hard uphill battle. When you need help, ask for it, and if someone asks for help, just listen to them even if you are unable to do any more than just be there for five minutes. Five minutes for a lifetime is not much to ask.
You are very, very true in your statement Dane. All this stress we place upon ourselves is mostly our own construct, or, what society deems to be important for our "role" in life. It's all bullshit when you think about it and break it down. We have become slaves to societies pre-conceived expectations and we are drowning in our own shit as a result.
You wanna know what success truly is? Simple: take you time, enjoy the sunrise, enjoy those you love, and never take anything for granted. The truth is not that hard, unfortunately when we all have 1,000,000+ voices screaming into our ears non-stop about what we SHOULD be, what we NEED to be, it makes seeing and hearing the truth so damn difficult.
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Let me add a few points as well. Take the first album, yes, six of the tunes were covers, however it is their approach to those covers which made all the difference. Jeff Beck released Truth a few months before. Both the Zeppelin & Beck albums had essentially the same aim and same ideas, however old Beck was really not pissed off that Jimmy decided to put You Shook Me on hie record as well...Beck was pissed off because Jimmy did with YSM something Beck did not even realize was possible at the time. Sure, the lyrics were the same and the 1, 4, 5 blues metering was there, otherwise, Zeppelin's version of YSM sounds little like the original whereas Beck's approach was much more faithful to the original. This is also why I somewhat take the whole plagiarism claim as mostly bullshit. Zeppelin's Dazed and confused, outside of the lyric, "I have been Dazed and Confused" is zero, nothing like the Jake Holmes version, different lyrics, different progression, completely different structure, so, how exactly was that plagiarism? Whole Lotta Love, The Lemon Song, and the beginning and end of Bring it on Home would be the only true examples of plagiarism, and again, only so far as lyrical content. Even the acoustic guitar intro to BIOH is not nicked because that same progression, played exactly as played there, is on around 80% of ALL blues tunes.
Now regarding the Beatles, they were not the most influential, not even close. Those honors go to three men and in this order: Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Little Richard. There would be no Beatles, Stones, Who, Cream, nothing without those three, you have the whole template for rock and roll for the next 60 years and counting right there. The Beatles did not even begin to change or really contribute anything new to music until Revolver, their early stuff was mostly bubble gum pop, engineered to sell records. Rubber Soul would be the first real Beatles album IMO, anything prior to that may be good music, but nothing which had not been done by several other bands before, during, and after.
Zeppelin did indeed change music itself, how you ask? Two ways, first, they not only incorporated several different genres and styles into music, but they took those varying genres, put them in a blender, then added their own "special sauce" and BAM! The second way they changed music, and I am sure others would have come along and did the same...very soon, is they were truly the first to take a song and "play it at 11." What I mean by this is not just volume and / or attitude, but in style, virtuosity, confidence. Sure the MC5 were loud and aggressive, but they were reckless and arbitrary as well, pronto-punk. Yes Hendrix was virtuosity and confident, however often times it lacked focus and his best music lacked accessibility (Axis & Electric Ladyland). Zeppelin were the first ones to pretty much do it all in a tight, focused manner, balls to the wall, confident as hell, and open to all.
That is Zeppelin's legacy and that is how they changed music IMO.
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17 hours ago, 76229 said:
Zooma is brilliant. If you want to see JPJ stretching out & throwing every musical idea into the mix, that album has it. Great drumming from Pete Thomas as well
Yes, Zooma is a brilliant album, never gets old. You can put it on today and 16 year olds will dig it along with us middle aged people. So, not only a great album, but a very accessible one as well.
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1 hour ago, ZepHead315 said:
I don't know if SAJ is trolling or is just having a bad day, but I honestly can't believe anyone with almost 20,000 posts in a Zeppelin forum would say such nonsense.
Steve is a very sensitive soul who, if not given what he perceives as the proper respect, tends to be a bit prickly. Since he feels slighted by Page personally for what happened last year, he is prone to lash out.
Don't worry, once Steve gets his fill of Hentai he will be back to his usual, affable self.
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16 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:
There's really nothing to talk about after 11-11-16.
For crying out loud Steve, get over it.
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Chris was such a great guy, a very nice man and great musician. Another taken far to young.
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5 hours ago, SteveAJones said:
Taking other artists songs and claiming them as their own is the extent of how they changed music. Their impact on popular culture is nowhere close to that of The Beatles. They did have an impact on the music industry, specifically the percentage of the gate receipts they took as their share and touring without an opening act.
Uh oh, I guess Jimmy is not returning Steve's calls these days.
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On 1/13/2017 at 1:14 PM, Kiwi_Zep_Fan87 said:
13 Freaky Facts About Friday the 13th
By Live Science Staff | July 13, 2012 08:42am ETDoes Friday the 13th freak you out? If so, hold on to your rabbit's foot extra tight, because there are three of these supposedly unlucky dates in 2012, though perhaps luckily, this Friday (July 13) is the last of them. Though, there's always some fear to be had next year, 2013.
Read on for 13 strange facts about this day of superstition.
1. The year 2012 was a special one for Friday the 13ths: There are three of them: Jan. 13, April 13 and July 13. The freaky thing? The dates fall exactly 13 weeks apart. That hasn't happened since 1984.
2. If that scares you, you may have paraskavedekatriaphobia (also known as friggatriskaidekaphobia). Those are the scientific terms for fear of Friday the 13th. Triskaidekaphobia is fear of the number 13.
3. It's not clear when or why Friday the 13th became associated with bad luck. The association may be biblical, given that the 13th guest at the Last Supper betrayed Jesus. His crucifixion was the next day, apparently a Friday. Or maybe 13 suffers from coming after the more-pleasing number 12, which gets to number the months, the days of Christmas and even the eggs in a dozen. (There are also 12 signs of the zodiac, 12 gods of Olympus, 12 labors of Hercules, 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles of Jesus.)
4. Whatever the reason, fear of 13 has spread far and wide: Hotels and hospitals often skip the 13th floor, and even airports quietly omit gate 13 sometimes.
5. The next year in which we'll have three Friday the 13ths is 2015. They'll fall in February, March and November.
6. If you think your Friday the 13th is likely to be bad, be glad you aren't a 14th-century Knight Templar. On Oct. 13, 1307, officers of King Philip IV of France raided the homes of thousands of these Crusades warriors, imprisoning them on charges of illegal activities. Though the charges weren't proven, more than a hundred died of terrible torture, according to "Tales of the Knights Templar" (Warner Books, 1995).
7. Fittingly, director of psychological thrillers Alfred Hitchcock was born on the 13th — Friday, Aug. 13, 1999, would have been his 100th birthday. Perhaps aptly titled "Number 13," a film that was supposed to be Hitchcock's directorial debut never made it past the first few scenes and was shut down due to financial problems. He allegedly said the film wasn't very interesting. (Meanwhile, Fidel Castro was born on Friday the 13th, in August 1926.)
8. Why does the Friday the 13th superstition stick so firmly in our minds? According to Thomas Gilovich, who chairs the department of psychology at Cornell University, our brains are almost too good at making associations.
"If anything bad happens to you on Friday the 13th, the two will be forever associated in your mind, and all those uneventful days in which the 13th fell on a Friday will be ignored," Gilovich said in a statement. [13 Superstitions & Traditions Explained]
9. For pagans, 13 is actually a lucky number. It corresponds with the number of full moons in a year.
10. President Franklin D. Roosevelt is said to have avoided travel on the 13th day of any month, and would never host 13 guests at a meal. Napoleon and President Herbert Hoover were also triskaidekaphobic, with an abnormal fear of the number 13.
11. Mark Twain once was the 13th guest at a dinner party. A friend warned him not to go. "It was bad luck," Twain later told the friend. "They only had food for 12." Superstitious diners in Paris can hire a quatorzieme, or professional 14th guest. [13 Odd Occurrences on Friday the 13th]
12. Stock broker and author Thomas W. Lawson, in his 1907 novel "Friday the Thirteenth," wrote of a stockbroker's attempts to take down Wall Street on the unluckiest day of the month. Reportedly, stock brokers after this were as unlikely to buy or sell stocks on this unlucky day as they were to walk under a ladder, according to accounts of a 1925 New York Times article.
13. This fear of Friday the 13th can be serious business, according to the Stress Management Center and Phobia Institute in Asheville, N.C., which, among other things, offers therapy to help people overcome their fear of the freaky friday. Their estimates suggest hundreds of millions of dollars, up to $900 million are lost due to people's fear of flying or doing the business as usual that day, though that number isn't backed up with other estimates.
First time I got down with the old rumpy bumpy was on a Friday the 13th...I still feel lucky
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21 hours ago, SteveAJones said:
He was magnificent in Tombstone.
Two underrated roles he played:
Deadwood (Series) as Cy Toliver and Southern Comfort as Hardin
Damn I am gonna miss him.
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10 hours ago, SteveAJones said:
These are really amazing to see!
I wonder if the suit (Page) and tie (Plant) were worn to persuade immigration they were merely mild barbarians?
Of which look both Page & Plant would reprise for stage clothes later in the decade...
I like how Jimmy looks in that one color picture with his hair combed back.
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Let me weigh in on the Vape Oil in regard to AZ. As Luvz pointed out, AZ does NOT regulate contaminants which much to my dismay wound up affecting me directly. When the oil first came out it was great, just as Mr. Bong pointed out however, unlike Mr. Bong I am a serious lightweight. The small cartridge lasts me a good six months typically. In November past (2016) I renewed my medical card and went to my local dispensary to buy a new cartridge. They now have the "premier" cartridges with what is supposed to be better quality oil so I ponied up the extra $20 for the upgrade. When I got home I realized there was a problem right away. No matter how hard I hit the damn thing I could barely get anything out of it. I figured being November and about 70 outside that maybe I needed to warm up the oil (if it is too cold the oil will gel and not be able to make it into the chamber through the holes). I did this via the use of a hairdryer and tried again. Yep, that worked like a charm. Got a great hit and a lovely high...unfortunately I began to feel as if my lungs were constricting. This lasted for only a couple of minutes and then I was fine. When I woke up the next morning my lungs had the same feeling for about five minutes. My health is very important to me so I decided to research weed oil. Found out in states like goddamned AZ, with little to no regulation, the glycerine (stabilizer) in the oil cartridge is of an inferior, and possibly tainted product. This is what caused both problems, the clogging of the chamber and my lung distress. I brought the product back, explained to the guy what happened and I must say he was very nice and exchanged it out for some old school flower.
Bottom line, as long as I live in AZ and the regulation is non-existent, I will be sticking to flower as I have zero adverse affects from smoking the good old fashioned way. Such a shame because I loved the convenience of the vape pen and the cartridges were fine up until ver recently. Also, since I only purchase once ever three months I no longer buy in the Phx area but go to Flagstaff instead as the quality up there is second to none, the customer service is both excellent and educational, and everything has a money back guarantee. Also, next time I buy I may try the cartridge again as the Flag guy told me not to buy the premier oil (they do not even stock it up there anymore) due to several complaints the same as mine. He told me to stick to the cheaper ol in the plastic / metal cartridge as the stabilizing agent is better quality, organic, and does not typically cause the side effects I experienced. So, if your shop tries to up-sell you on the premier oil (you can also tell by the cartridge, the premier oil cartridge is ALL metal, including the mouthpiece. The regular has a plastic mouthpiece and is made by O-Pen, the same company which makes the vape pens).
Final thought: The pure indica pre-rolled joint (one gram) is pure bliss. I bought this more for my wife who has insomnia issues and believe me, it worked very well, put her out like a light after 30 minutes of what she called a very mellow and happy high. I tried some as well with the same result. I also bought a gram (loose) of a hybrid strain which is my weekend, chill smoker. Does not make you tired but give you a great body / head buzz and makes everything oh so lovely. I enjoy a puff or two before I practice guitar sometimes and I must admit, I play better with it. Then again I am also high so maybe I think I am sounding like Page meets Beck when in actuality I sound like silverware being dropped on linoleum.
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2 hours ago, middlezep said:
Cool that jimmy page was wearing a greenpeace t-shirt at the end of the show.
I gotta say that i also get nostalgic looking back at the shows i saw in the 90s.
If memory serves (I was at this concert in Phoenix as well as the 98' show as well), P&P donated a percentage of the receipts to a food bank and, they had several charity booths set up as well.
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3 hours ago, zepscoda said:
Fargo Episode 4 tonight...love this show!
Fargo is great and I like how every season is different, kinda like American Horror Story
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Handmaid's Tale
I figure the way things are going this show is a precursor to our future so I am boning up on protocol and my old time religion.
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On 5/7/2017 at 7:13 PM, kingzoso said:
I did not want to start a new topic but this refers to television (actually cable tv). Has anyone who reads this ever seen the HBO show "Oz" or the Showtime series, "Homeland"? I am thinking about buying the complete series of both of the shows but want to read any + or - feedback first. Are these two shows were investing time in? Anyone? Thanks in advance for any responses.
OZ is excellent and was the springboard for several now famous actors. Highly recommended.
Homeland I never watched as the premise and characters seemed too absurd for my tastes.
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On 3/24/2017 at 3:24 AM, Mook said:
Listen to Fly on a Windshield by Genesis, which was recorded before Kashmir, Led Zeppelin didn't invent this kind of rock.
Fly was written and recorded in either June or July 1974. Kashmir was written and recorded in February 1974. Both bands interacted with each other and were both at Hedley Grange separated by three months. However, Genesis did not record any tracks at Hedley Grange in May when they were there, they wrote some of the tracks there but Fly was not written until the actual recording sessions a month or two later. PG should have come out no later than June 74' but Jimmy and his album art once again delayed release as it had to HOTH.
So, in closing it is very likely Kashmir influenced Genesis to write Fly as they likely heard the song before release. Whereas there is no way Fly influenced Kashmir unless Jimmy transcended time/space itself.
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Presence as a whole would represent their most complex album but every album has their complex tunes. However, just because a song SOUNDS easy, does not mean it is. Black Dog is an excellent example of this as is Hot Dog. In fact many of Zep songs are like this. Zep for me is akin to Chopin, much of their material, just like Chopin's sound easy but the fact is much of their catalogue is very difficult to play correctly.
How did led Zeppelin change music?
in Led Zeppelin Master Forum
Posted · Edited by IpMan
Steve, I keep saying, over and over ad nauseam I am referring ONLY to the period of 63'-64', not the entirety of their career. I do appreciate your toning down on the insults though as I am always happy when a person turns a corner. Though you still need to work on your modesty and truly hope that is not a bridge too far. As I have been told by several people who indeed were towering intellects, those which are never consider themselves as such, however those who lack are the first ones to crow about how smart they are.
And yes, the Beatles sure paid their dues, some members more than others, no one is disputing that. The point is when they were playing those bars in Hamburg, soaked to the gills on amphetamines, they were playing covers. If they would have whipped out Love Me Do or Please, Please Me in one of those Hamburg clubs no one would have ever heard of the Beatles because the locals likely would have beat them to a pulp and tossed them in some ditch. Those were rough clubs and I doubt the locals would have gone in for one of those tunes.
So, in affect you are correct about the music regarding George Martin, he was a true genius and was likely the driving force behind how the music was arranged and laid down. Knowing their roots it is unlikely the Beatles would have, out of nowhere, come up with those pop style leanings without the direction of Sir George. I assume the songs would have been written, however they likely would have been more along the lines of what they had been doing, so the songs would have been harder and more aggressive in general and likely not have been as popular. However I personally would have loved to hear what those songs would have sounded like without Sir George in the Captains chair.