John Paul Jones...No Writing Credit...Kashmir

[Paulus]

Jimmy and John Bonham composed the song and Robert wrote the lyrics.  All received credit.  JPJ got nothing even though he invented the keyboard parts and arranged parts of the song with an outside group of players.  Not fair.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Paulus
Spelling

[Brigante]

The key word there is 'arrangement'. It's not the same as songwriting and you don't get a co-writer credit for doing it. Songwriting's just the basic tune, the melody and the lyrics - anything on top of that is classed as arrangement, including the string arrangement that JPJ added to Jimmy's tune and/or Robert's melody. Seems harsh on Jonesy, but just think - if arrangements were included in the writing credits, Rolf Harris would get a writing credit for the wobbleboard part he put to Stairway to Heaven in 1993.  Or, more seriously, Hendrix's ideas would've made him the co-writer of All Along The Watchtower. Etc. Apparently, the reason for Bonzo's credit on Kashmir is because when he and Jimmy were jamming the basic idea, Bonham's improvisations gave Jimmy new ideas for where to take the riffs that he wouldn't have come up with if not for what Bonzo did. Course, it's entirely up to a band themselves how they attribute credit and there was nothing stopping Jimmy including Jonesy in the credits if he'd actually wanted to...but that's a different matter! 😉

Edited March 2, 2023 by Brigante

[RobotViking]

 

Well, this is a bit of a fuzzy area. Keep in mind I'm approaching this as someone who's encountered this topic from various angles, but who is not a professional musician. I'm also referring to U.S. law here, though there's substantial overlap with UK law. Apologies for the long ramble.

Whether or not arranging counts as songwriting is open to interpretation. There isn't really a strict definition of arranging. Traditionally, it means creating the parts and writing the charts for a horn or string section. In other words, the songwriter says "I want a brass band here going 'badadaDA dum' and sings a melody, then the arranger does music theory things and out comes a brass part. In a band context, arranging sometimes refers to ideas about how to organize the parts of a song ("I think we should do 2 verses at the start and kind of build it up...then the third verse should be a guitar solo, and you can play that intro riff as the bridge."). Frankly, I find it difficult to imagine even the most basic arrangement not being an integral part of the songwriting process, but like I said, it's fuzzy.

(To be clear, doing a cover of a song, no matter how different from the original, certainly doesn't grant a writing credit, which is established when the first, original version of the song is created in some form, which could be sheet music, but in our context is more likely a studio recording, but could even be an unreleased demo, such as all those Basement Tapes Dylan songs. Indeed, you must obtain a license from the copyright holder and pay a fee in order to sell or stream a cover - there are music license clearinghouses that perform this semi-automatically).

Who gets credit for writing a song can be easy or complicated. A band can agree ahead of time to any kind of credit arrangement they want, either out of solidarity (everyone gets credit for every song no matter what) or because it's easier than figuring who did how much of what for each song. The band could even assign a writing credit to someone they've never met and who had zero influence on the songwriting process in any way, such as Richie Valens' mom, for instance. In my band, we split writing credits between the guitarist and myself. Although I'd have preferred a 4-way split, the two of us did do the bulk of the songwriting so it made sense to do it that way - he generally presented nearly complete instrumental demos that I would add vocal melodies and lyrics too, with occasional arranging. The drummer and bass player would add their parts to that. To be fair, we knew it was pretty low stakes - no one was ever going to cover or license one of our songs, so, whatever.

If you don't have a pre-arranged agreement as to how to split songwriting credits, then you need to look at the legal standard for songwriting credit. It's still, unfortunately, rather fuzzy. Essentially, if your part of the song was substantial enough that it meets the standard for obtaining a copyright on its own, then you should get a credit on that song (also, legally, all credit is split equally between the credited writers, unless a different share has been worked out ahead of time). I personally find it hard to justify someone who was involved in the creation of a song not getting writing credit, unless they're purely playing a part someone else has completely created for them using charts or what have you. Even if JPJ "only" arranged the keyboard/string parts on Kashmir, he made many choices in creating that part that are integral to the form of the song in its original recorded version. But there's so much grey area here. Let's say you play a very basic drum part throughout a song - it probably doesn't meet the copyright standard for songwriting credit. But in my opinion, that's still a choice, and the form of the song is heavily shaped by the choice to use a simple drum part. ~very fuzzy~

I suspect there's a generational gap in how this issue is perceived, as well. Credits were given out pretty conservatively for many many years. Think of all the guest artists who did guitar solos for other artists but didn't get a songwriting credit. It seems to me that the artistry of a solo, even if the guitarist didn't author the underlying structure of the song, is incredibly musical and a vital part of the song in its recorded form. Studio musicians never got writing credits, no matter how the feel and details of their playing influenced the song. I'm also amazed at how rarely producers get writing credits when they work with rock bands. Today, songs have long lists of writers, because production has become part of the songwriting process in a way it never was before. Anyone who put their fingerprints on that song gets a credit. IMO this is how it ought to be done, but again that's just an opinion. Like, how could you justify not giving the bass player a writing credit (unless you'd literally written out every note ahead of time)? You might say, "Oh well, she's just playing bass along to the song that's already been written." But there are a million ways to play bass to a song. How are bass scales incorporated into the rhythm? Are the notes being played deep and low, or in a higher, more melodic position? That's part of songwriting, man.

Anyway, the TLDR version is: I think Jonesy damn well should have received that writing credit. The counterargument might be that he was just doubling the riff that Page wrote on a different instrument. But I still feel like his playing involved so many creative choices to create that sound that he should be considered one of the co-writers.

 

[Reggie29]

For as long as I remember an arrangement is how the song is structured, performed and / or recorded and not necessarily how it was written. An example is All Along the Watchtower by Bob Dylan and covered by Jimi Hendrix as mentioned above. The original was an acoustic song and although the melody remained the same, the production and complexion of the song was completely different. Hendrix changed the rhythm guitar to electric and added lead guitar solos. That does not make him a co-writer, only an arranger.

John Paul Jones was the main arranger for Led Zeppelin and before that was an in-demand arranger during his studio session years.

If JPJ (and not Jimmy Page), composed the strings and keyboard parts in Kashmir, then it could be argued that he was a co-writer and entitled to a writing credit.

Before my friend and lead guitarist passed away last year, every song I have written for the band (both music and lyrics), I always credited him for composing lead guitar parts or riffs as well as our bass player and drummer too unless I had specific ideas about what the bass notes would be and they were already written by me and the occasional suggested drumbeats and fills etc. 

[KirkD777]

When I saw JPJ solo it was the only Zep song he played. Made me think he had more to do with it. But damn, when he started it he and his band sounded like zeppelin. No vocals which was good. 

[Blaize86]

Arranging instrumentation does not garner a writing credit. They thru Bonzo a bone here. It was Jimmy’s riff and Roberts lyrics and phrasing. 

[Brigante]

10 hours ago, Blaize86 said:

Arranging instrumentation does not garner a writing credit. 

Exactly. Can't say it much clearer than that. A good example is the famous lead guitar line on the introduction of All The Young Dudes - it's instantly recognisable and it's an integral part of the recording. Mick Ralphs wrote it, not Bowie, yet the song's credited solely to Bowie, because he wrote the tune, the words and the melody. Ralpher isn't in the credits because his famous guitar line's part of the arrangement. Similarly, Walk On The Wild Side - Mick Ronson wrote that famous double bassline and Bowie wrote the doo-do-doo backing vocals and the sax part, but it's credited solely to Lou Reed because he wrote the tune, the words and the melody, while the bassline, backing vocals and sax are part of the arrangement. It does seem to go against all natural justice, but them's the distinctions. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Brigante

[luvlz2]

I thought it was a really cool point Diamanda Galas made about John Paul Jones in an interview for Phoenix New Times promoting The Sporting Life: 

"Not that you can mistake that rhythm section for anything else one it kicks in. What will surprise a lot of people about The Sporting Life is hearing just how much the trademark Zeppelin sound hinged upon Jones' contributions. "A lot of people have gone to this album saying, 'Oh, it's Led Zeppelin-influenced,'" says Galas. "Well, do they ever stop to think that maybe Zeppelin was John Paul Jones influenced?"

When I first read the article-interview back in 1994 it made me think more of John Paul Jones' contributions to the band.

Edited April 22, 2023 by luvlz2

[Brigante]

Agreed, Jonesy's contributions shouldn't ever be underestimated - I know they are, even now, but he added so much. I remember reading that stuff from Diamanda and her praising him for trying new things, not relying on Zeppelin's past glory, etc. Also her response at the London gig when someone yelled out 'The Song Remains The Same!' and she immediately went 'No it doesn't, motherf*cker!' Jonesy almost laughed. Just been reading about him producing the Mission in the late '80s - Hussey said JPJ actually cried when they got talking about Bonzo late one night. Nearly a decade on and it could still affect him like that, even in front of virtual strangers. I didn't expect that - again, because of the image we have of him as a very reserved character. Was also reading about how Aussie psych legends The Church wanted him to produce their Gold Afternoon Fix album in 1990 and they met Jonesy and he wanted to do it but the record label vetoed it, saying 'What's he ever done?' ! Huh?! That's the problem with keeping a low profile and letting others take the glory, I guess. Church guitarist, Marty Willson Piper, ran into Jonesy at an airport years later and told him how they were still sorry that the label had sunk the GAF production. 'Big mistake' was all Jonesy said! He was right, too.