weslgarlic Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 No worries, it's good to have a different opinion and I respect yours. However you are wrong regarding the existence of Jesus as there is no, I mean zero reference to Jesus outside of the bible. He is mentioned nowhere in historical documents of the era. Does that mean I believe he did not exist? No, actually I do believe he existed simply because of certain details contained in the letters from St. Paul and a very early manuscript of Mark which was recently discovered. I believe the reason there is no extra-biblical record of Jesus is because he was a local phenomenon who did pretty much everything we currently know of within the Galilee area of Palestine...not many educated historians in that area back then. Also, the destruction of the Temple in 66ad may have also seen the destruction of possible historical accounts of Jesus. So that is my two cents. Though if you ever come across hard core theologians who do not believe in the existence of Jesus, that is exactly where they will point for the foundation of their argument which to me is a bit one dimensional in thought. The Quran mentions Jesus by name twenty-five times http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 SR, i don't think you are a nerd. i wish i was as well read as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 ...love what you wrote here SR....``For me Jesus was the message, the divinity, even if he was (which I do not believe) is both irrelevant and has no bearing. If you are a god it is easy to be all godlike, no miracle there, but if you are a man (or woman) and you reach such levels of enlightenment, well, there is no greater miracle on earth.`` I also do agree with, what I think you were saying, about the historical interpretations of handed handed down messages from one man or woman to another. It would be hard to believe that those messages and stories would remain consistent throughout the last 2000 plus years. Especially the way we can alter things for our own selfish agendas. I mean, we could get 20 of our Led Zep forum members in one room and play a little game of `broken telephone`to prove how bad humans are a consistant and accurate communication..... anyway, I am respectful of what other people believe or don`t believe. I am not a bible expert and don;t really want to be one either. I think I have the basics and try to be as good as I can, which is a struggle. I have chosen Jesus (or whatever he really is) to ride along with me day to day but I am sure he is cringing every once in a while. Enlightenment, regardless of religion, is something great to strive for. i try to stay respectful also. i enjoy the conversations we are having. collaboration is the key! ( think someone said that somewhere ..... lol ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedZeppfan77 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 i am learning so much from these threads! Learning? Or hearing all the things you wish to hear from another non believer. To SR, I just do not understand why you are bringing up a subject such as whether Jesus actually existed. i would expect you to challenge the view that he is the Son of God or did perform the miracles that were witnessed or did indeed rise on Easter Sunday and appear to many people and his ascending into heaven. Many of the documented teachings and things that he said including the Lords prayer are not disputed. It is simply crazy for lack of a better term to say he did not in fact exist. The evidence is not only overwhelming, but I believe two thirds of this planet believe him to be the Son of God. And we do not believe him to be a "son" in a literal sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Learning? Or hearing all the things you wish to hear from another non believer. To SR, I just do not understand why you are bringing up a subject such as whether Jesus actually existed. i would expect you to challenge the view that he is the Son of God or did perform the miracles that were witnessed or did indeed rise on Easter Sunday and appear to many people and his ascending into heaven. Many of the documented teachings and things that he said including the Lords prayer are not disputed. It is simply crazy for lack of a better term to say he did not in fact exist. The evidence is not only overwhelming, but I believe two thirds of this planet believe him to be the Son of God. And we do not believe him to be a "son" in a literal sense i try to read everything that is written here, and make up my own mind about each post. and yes, i am learning. SR is a BELIEVER, actually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reswati Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 "but I believe two thirds of this planet believe him to be the Son of God" Faulty logic: just because a majority of people believes something makes that thing true the majority could be wrong (Like most of the people once believed the world was flat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishhead Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 "but I believe two thirds of this planet believe him to be the Son of God" Faulty logic: just because a majority of people believes something makes that thing true the majority could be wrong (Like most of the people once believed the world was flat) good point Res!........It should not matter, how many believe, in qualifying one`s own belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarius Rising Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 The Quran mentions Jesus by name twenty-five times http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam The Q'ran was written in the 6th century and is in now way a historical document. The Q'ran in Arabic (the only way the book can be read) is actually a group of poems with a religious / philosophical theme based on Judaic & Christian teachings. It is natural Jesus is mentioned, especially since he is considered the greatest of the prophets in Islam and his mother Miriam (Mary) the greatest of all women, greater even than Mohammed's mother. It is not a historical source in any way. LedZeppFan77: I am a believer in Jesus and believe he existed, I stated my views above. I am simply saying there is no historical proof, that ain't my fault I am just stating fact. I also refuse to believe in Jesus divinity because to me it is obvious that stuff was made up BS. Why? Because there are at least 10 other "deities" that pre-date Jesus by anywhere form 4,000 years to 300 years that have the identical birth story, miracles, and death / resurrection quite literally verbatim in several cases. Read up on Osiris, Isis, & Horus; Krishna; Adonis; Mithra just to name a few. You have to understand, in the ancient world the pre-requisite for 4,000 years had to be thus to be considered a god on earth: virgin birth on December 25th, a visit by magi, raising the dead, walking on water and stilling the waters, persecution, execution (usually crucifixion, I guess it was a real crowd pleaser before TV), and the most important part...raising from the dead after three day's. Three days is symbolic of the resurrection of the sun on December 25th because on the winter solstice the sun reaches it's lowest point on the horizon and the day is the shortest of the year. This was believed to be the "death" of the sun (son). The sun stays at this point in the sky for exactly three days and then begins to ascend again in the sky on December 25 (the resurrection of the sun or son). When you study this stuff you find out many interesting things. Many people lose their faith when this knowledge is revealed and that is a shame, a sign of a weak mind and even weaker spirit. To me this knowledge has strengthened my faith in God because it shows that many great avatars have come to us over the millenia to show us the way and believe me (or not, do some damn reading on your own), all of these avatars say the same thing, same message. These avatars are not representations of God on earth due to actually being God, they are avatars of God because they sought enlightenment as humans and became something much greater, better than the rest of us. They stand as examples of what every person alive can become if they so choose and do the work. That is the greatest gift, that is the greatest miracle. We all have our own salvation in our own hands, we simply have to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishhead Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 ...totally off topic, but maybe food for thought... Gord Downie, lead singer of the Tragically Hip up here in Canada was, before he started to feel the need to play acoustic guitar (badly), one of the most interesting front men I have ever seen. He would go into mid-song story telling rambles during band-breakdowns, that were mesmorizing, humerous and provocative. ....Anyway, at one show he looked out in to the crowd and blurted out...."Imagine if Jesus had of been hung, instead of nailed to a cross? What would our churches look like?" It was kinda shocking but really made me think...Yeah, he is onto something. The cross is such an iconic symbol and worn around so many peoples necks, tattooed onto bodies, and hung in churches all over the world as a symbol of Christianity and specifically Catholicism.......So, what if Jesus had of been hung? Would people be kneeling infront of a noose, or wearing a noose on a chain around their necks? Made me think a little.... I think the point he was trying to make was that symbols are really just that and nothing more. They don't hold special powers. What really matters is what is in a person's heart or mind. The wearing of a cross, in the end, doesn't really mean anything if you can;t back it up with some substance within yours own heart and mind...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagittarius Rising Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 ^ Not only that but the cross was not used as a christian symbol until around the 4th or fifth century, the fish was the early symbol of christianity. The cross was not originally used because it is a pagan symbol which pre-dates christianity by 3,500 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 ^ Not only that but the cross was not used as a christian symbol until around the 4th or fifth century, the fish was the early symbol of christianity. The cross was not originally used because it is a pagan symbol which pre-dates christianity by 3,500 years. yes, i was surprised by that when i found out. didn't they use a ^ symbol for jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedZeppfan77 Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 I have cousins in Florida that are now Nazzarene. My cousin's husband being the minister of a very large church there. Iin fact the Manager of the NY Yankees belongs to the church. They do not use the sign of the cross like us Catholics. So being as religous as they are and they say grace at every meal, I did use the sign of the cross out of habit. i do every night before I go to sleep. I say the Lords prayer, the prayer to the Virgin Mary and one other short prayer before I use my own words. Then I will close with the sign of the cross. For those that do not know, we say the words, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit ( or ghost in older times). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 ...totally off topic, but maybe food for thought... Gord Downie, lead singer of the Tragically Hip up here in Canada was, before he started to feel the need to play acoustic guitar (badly), one of the most interesting front men I have ever seen. He would go into mid-song story telling rambles during band-breakdowns, that were mesmorizing, humerous and provocative. ....Anyway, at one show he looked out in to the crowd and blurted out...."Imagine if Jesus had of been hung, instead of nailed to a cross? What would our churches look like?" It was kinda shocking but really made me think...Yeah, he is onto something. The cross is such an iconic symbol and worn around so many peoples necks, tattooed onto bodies, and hung in churches all over the world as a symbol of Christianity and specifically Catholicism.......So, what if Jesus had of been hung? Would people be kneeling infront of a noose, or wearing a noose on a chain around their necks? Made me think a little.... I think the point he was trying to make was that symbols are really just that and nothing more. They don't hold special powers. What really matters is what is in a person's heart or mind. The wearing of a cross, in the end, doesn't really mean anything if you can;t back it up with some substance within yours own heart and mind...... that is a great attitude to have. i am happy for those that have this way of thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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