IpMan
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Posts posted by IpMan
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3 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:
Yes, it's a common musical progression, but the issue before the jury is whether a *specific* song (Taurus) influenced Zep in composing STH, not Davey Graham or some 16th century composer. And while Page has always cited Graham as an acoustic influence, it seems he didn't attribute influence on structures like STH until his deposition, the canonical account had been that it was a moment of inspiration in the Welsh countryside, no? Plus his denial of familiarity with Spirit's music seems like a stretch, age-related or not. I'm simply saying, the jury is going to see too many things that don't quite add up. All of these things should have been thought through better before letting it go to court.
Again, you are wrong. Please explain how Jimmy could be held at fault for being inspired by a song which itself had been inspired by a song, which itself had been inspired by another song and on and on. I understand anything is possible, however, on the slim chance the prosecution wins, I can almost guarantee the decision would be overturned on appeal based on the completely non-unique and un-original nature of the supposed source / inspiration material of Taurus.
This whole argument is ridiculous. We are talking about THREE NOTES of the first arpeggio, after that the two songs progressions vary. Taurus is a straight forward descending structure in four measures, STH ascends for three measures before descending the final two. Yet the first three notes of both songs being the same automatically translates as plagiarism?
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I believe he looks like Channing Tatum
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1 hour ago, JohnOsbourne said:
Malofiy is a jackass, no question. But a top-flight lawyer (considering what Page must be paying him) would have made himself aware of any incriminating statements pointing to his client's familiarity with Spirit's music. It's not like Jimmy was an obscure musician, his public statements are not that hard to find given the resources, even accounting for the primitive state of media in the 70's. Page has set himself up here, if not for a fall, then at least to cast some suspicion in the eyes of the jury. His lawyer deserves a big share of the blame here (although it's possible Page hired himself a yes-man).
Suspicion of any kind would by default have to infer Taurus was a one of a kind, unique composition of which STH copied directly from. The fact is, the several other songs, contemporary & classic, which have a similar structure exist which pre-date Taurus by years, decades, and even centuries. Nothing else really matters once this is proven. You cannot unmake hundreds of years of music history due to a foggy memory, accidental or otherwise. Also, from Page's statements you cannot prove is is being either evasive or untruthful, however at 74 years old he can easily claim a less then positronic quality memory.
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20 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:
I stand corrected, I thought he was sticking with the "immaculate conception" account of the origins of the song. But he says he recalls influences before 1968, but not a 1976 interview where he praises Spirit's music? Again, not going to look good to the jury.
Sorry mate but that dog don't hunt. Page is 72 years old and anyone familiar with the man knows of his drug use in the 70's. I am sure the jury would take an interview from 76' along side Jimmy's current testimony and draw the obvious conclusion...he can't remember every word from every interview over the past 48 years, nor should he be expected to. Jimmy covered his ass in his deposition when he made mention of influences for the song, nothing else needed to be said nor remembered. I mean really, is Jimmy supposed to remember what he had for breakfast on October 20th 1976 as well?
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1 minute ago, Balthazor said:
Well I'd like to assume their lawyers are smarter and more knowledgeable than either of us, but still it seems like there's risk in putting Page on the stand. Plant I'm not worried about, what could he say? And besides, Plant could carry on for six minutes and nobody in the jury would have any idea what the hell he'd said.
Without a doubt, old Robert would go into one of his Celtic diatribes about the Welsh King Owain Glyndwr and have the court scratching their heads for hours.
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49 minutes ago, Balthazor said:
That's the kind of stuff that worries me about Page appearing in person at the trial. If he insists on the stand that he has no memory of Spirit, there's just a ton of stuff out there that could be used to discredit him there. If the scummy plaintiff lawyer starts pulling this stuff out and puts Page on the spot, it could go bad real quick.
Without a doubt, and beside, what is Jimmy's problem with just saying, "...hell yes I love Spirit, great music and lovely people." What would saying so do to bolster the argument of plagiarism? By that line of reasoning any musician any other musician is influenced by is by extension a victim of plagiarism? That is stupid. So, does that mean Dave Grohl stole all of his music from the Sub-Pop lineup? If so maybe one of Darby Crash's cousins can sue Dave and get the big payoff.
Page needs to pull a Donald Trump here, get on the stand and tell the truth about how he loved Spirit and took influences from many sources, including 18th century sources for the lament bass structure for the opening chords of Stairway. Then when sleazy opposing counsel says, "well, you said here in this deposition you did not remember their music" Page just comes back and says, "In the manner you framed the question I did not remember particular songs per se since it has been decades, however I never said I did not love or appreciate their music."
BAM! Even better than the Chewbacca Defense.
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4 hours ago, Versus said:
Sadly Tolinski is not a witness for the defence but for the plaintiffs. Malofiy quoted his interview with Page back in the 1990s
What did Page say in this interview which is so damning? "Oh, ha, he, he, he....I stole the riff from Taurus to construct STH and Peter threatened to cut off Randy's balls if he ever said anything. He, he, he, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law...MY LAW!!!"
I have read what I believe to be all of those interviews between Page & Tolinski and I do not recall such an exchange, nor any exchange which could be construed as damning IMO. Any ideas here???
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I believe the best defense is to bring out the sheet music and have a professor of music from a well known university or school such as Julliard or Cornell, testify and bear witness to the numerous compositions which use the same or very similar lament bass figure going back to the 17th century. Then, whip out Pachalbel's Canon in D major and the more than 200 contemporary pop songs using the exact same figure since 1961 to explain how a figure of music arranged differently is not the same as stealing said music.
It would be one thing if Page used the full four measures of the lament bass used for Taurus in the same fashion, but we are talking only FOUR NOTES of the first measure out of four for Taurus and five for STH. The whole lawsuit is ridiculous and if Zep win, I hope this sets precedence for future cases. I mean, whats next, some unknown asshole from 1973 sues Captain & Tennille for Muskrat Love because of the use of the word Muskrat? Enough is enough.
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On May 16, 2016 at 11:45 AM, badgeholder said:
The jury will only go by sheet music? Not actually playing the songs? That seems crazy in a case like this.
Either way it would prove the point in Zeps favor. The sheet music shows how different the arpeggio structure of each measure is, and the main point which is Taurus is ONLY a descending riff pattern, STH is a descending first, followed by ascending second and third, finishing with descending fourth & fifth measures. That is a very different structure and becomes glaringly obvious with sheet music and show the only true similarity lay in the first four notes of the first measure ONLY. I would look at this as a move in the right direction for the Zep team.
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4 hours ago, Balthazor said:
Well that sounds like a real stretch to me. Certainly guitarists had been using distortion and effects long before Hendrix came along, and Dave Davies' guitar tone in "You Really Got Me" practically set the standard for the rock guitar distortion sound, not to mention the pioneering guitar effects and technique utilized by The Ventures in the early 60's. You could argue that he pushed the envelope in this respect, but to say he was the first, that's grasping at straws.
That's why I said "to such a degree." Hendrix was in fact, the first guitarist in the public eye to do such acrobatics and sound effects in the ways he did. At least as far as I know, I may be wrong so if someone has examples of another guitarist going what Jimi did before Jimi, please let me know.
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7 hours ago, kingzoso said:
Jimi Hendrix did not invent the Electric Guitar. I do not know how or where you came to that conclusion. The first Electric Guitar was first modernized by Les Paul. Les Paul may not have actually invented the Electric Guitar but he was one of, if not the first, to make the Electric Guitar a modern staple that would eventually change the course of History.
I believe Rover meant that Jimi re-invented how electric guitar was played and could be played. Jimi was the first to go batshit with the tremolo, he was the first to use distortion & effects to such a degree to obtain the sound he wanted. He was the first guitarist who could play well that also projected such intensity & sexuality to the crowd. Clapton & McCartney were just as blown away by Jimi's stage presence as they were by his virtuosity.
Jimi was the triple threat as a guitarist akin to the triple treat in theatre, Jimi could play very, very well, he could write, and he could project. No other guitarist before him could do all three, not even close.
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11 hours ago, chef free said:
Jimi played sitar. Cherokee mist, 1968.
Plus, unlike Jimmy, Jimi used his dick...behind his back. No picks for Jimi. That man knew how to play BALLSY!
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On May 9, 2016 at 11:49 AM, KellyGirl said:
Another witness for Plaintiff side. I summarized it.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/311969841/Francis-Malofiy-Declaration-Skidmore-v-Led-Zeppelin-Stairway-to-Heaven-lawsuit
https://www.scribd.com/doc/311969840/Order-Granting-Plaintiff-s-Motion-For-Leave-Skidmore-v-Led-Zeppelin-Stairway-to-Heaven-lawsuit
On April 19, 2016, Plaintiff Michael Skidmore ("Skidmore") received an unsolicited email from
an English rock and roll photographer by the name of Mike Ware. That email is attached as
Exhibit 1 to this Declaration. He informed Mr. Skidmore that he attended a Spirit show in 1970
at Mothers Club at Birmingham, England, at which time he saw Plant seated in the first row of
the arena as a fan watching Spirit perform. In his email to Skidmore, Ware wrote: "Truth will
out, and I think that Plant and Page have dug a very big hole by lying about their relationship
with Spirit. They were big fans, as I witnessed in 1970 at Mothers Club, Birmingham because
Robert Plant was in the front row watching the band." Ware told Plaintiff’s counsel on the
phone that Plant was "thoroughly enjoying himself."
On April 20, 2016, Plaintiff’s counsel contacted Mr. Ware to seek to verify whether his version of
events was credible. Mr. Ware provided numerous details that led counsel to conclude he was
telling the truth, including that he specifically remembered the show because he hitchhiked
over 100 miles to get to Mothers Club with a friend and that the friend took ill after the first
song and spent the night in the bathroom. Mr. Ware also accurately described the layout of
Mothers Club. Mr. Ware informed Plaintiff’s counsel that he is willing to testify at the trial but
he is an elderly gentleman who lives in England and suffers from Parkinson’s disease, which
makes it impossible for him to travel.
IT IS HEREBY ORDEREDThat Plaintiff’s Motion be and hereby is GRANTED and that Plaintiff may take the videotape
deposition of Michael Ware or in the alternative have Mr. Ware testify by way of video
conference at trial.
**********************************************************************************
The mans word is gospel because 1) while watching Robert, Robert never looked bored, 2) his
friend used the bathroom a lot that night, 3) he can describe the layout of the club -
therefore it must mean Jimmy and Robert stole the intro to Stairway.
Whatever Francis...
Was Robert Plant that big of a rockstar in '70 that somebody would've been paying attention
to his body language and facial expressions at a small gig 45+ years ago and remembering? If
this was even a couple years later in the 70s when Zeppelin became H U G E, I could see someone
'watching' Robert. And do people not ever 'fake' having a good time? Or maybe he looked like that
because he had a good buzz going on.I'm sure the guy is being honest per se, but the testimony
sounds a bit silly. What happens if somebody can also 'prove' being there, yet says they remember
Robert Plant looking bored ZZzzz?Big question, after 45 years how could he be sure it was Robert? Bigger question (not wanting to come off as a dick), the man has Parkinson's, a disease which affects both memory and general cognition. Any lawyer would nullify this testimony based on those facts alone.
What's next? They gonna drag out the 105 year old cleaning lady from the Chateau Marmot who will testify she saw Robert pass Randy California in the hall in 1968?
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6 hours ago, Balthazor said:
I just listened to both twice each, and I guess it's just a matter of taste, but they just don't do much for me. Hendrix often comes off to me as noise and slop. But perhaps it's like Picasso, some people look at a Picasso and see genius, others see noise and slop.
No worries, its all subjective in the end
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4 hours ago, The Rover 75 said:
"Totally agree with you on Clapton though. He does what he does well, but that's ALL he does. Dude bores me to tears. "
That's the only part of what you said I would agree with.
We really shouldn't compare the 2, both solid choices, Balthazor give the Hendrix catalog more of a listen, you may like what you hear.
To me the consummate songs which scream Hendrix at his peak are Voodoo Chile & Machine Gun. This is stripped down Jimi, playing jazz influenced blues without all the flash and effects he made commonplace on Are You Experienced & Axis: Bold As Love. This was Jimi moving into a new phase, reinventing himself. His next move was a collaboration with Miles Davis which was sadly cut short and never come to fruition. If you listen to Machine Gun in particular you will see exactly where Beck & Robin Trower got their direction & inspiration from for their amazing 70's solo catalogs, they just took different aspects. I would say the whole of the Band of Gypsies album is pure brilliance.
Page & Hendrix, two fantastic guitarists. Its like comparing chocolate to mocha...it's ALL good!
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Would it not be ironic that if the Stairway lawsuit is dismissed, the Davey Graham Trust goes after the Randy California Trust for copyright infringement for Cry Me a River? That would be some serious Karma there.
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Was that a left-handed compliment?
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I cannot believe this, he was so young and he just performed a concert less than a week ago and partied as well. I hear he became deeply spiritual in the last 15 years and neither drank nor used drugs so this is strange. Prince has always been in my top 5...Zeppelin, Floyd, Prince, Queen, Parliament, however IMO Prince was the single most talented musician of the past 60 years. Not only was he a prolific writer, the guy could play several instruments AND play them better than anyone else. Prince was an amazing guitarist, just as good as Page & Beck, and, unlike either of them could play basketball like a MOFO!
So far 2016 can kiss my ass, if 1959 was the year the music died, this is they year it was cremated and scattered to the winds.
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4 hours ago, pluribus said:
Agreed. They will always be vulnerable because the examples are so numerous. While this lawsuit may not have merit, there are still examples of Page's "influences" that will always look bad. If Bert Jansch hadn't listed all of his performances as "Traditional" on Jack Orion, he could've made a killing suing Page for Black Mountainside (Black Waterside), Going to California (Nottamun Town and Henry Martin), Bron-Y-Aur Stomp (Waggoner's Lad), and the multiple releases that feature the live version of White Summer (which includes Bert Jansch's Casbah). Likewise for Davy Graham for White Summer, along with other lifts.
Not really sad for Page here. He made millions. He can afford it. He took the material, he should pay the price. Won't change my ability to enjoy listening to Zeppelin's music one bit.
Not saying right or wrong but Page in numerous interviews since 1968 brought up Jansch & Graham repeatedly as his main influences in regard to acoustic guitar, and, since those songs were credited as trad before, the question is whether Page should have also used the trad credit as well. Willie Dixon stole lock, stock, and barrel from his uneducated peers and never gave them any credit. Page alway gave credit in interviews to his influences which resulted in those artists achieving a modicum of additional commercial revenue which they never would have had without Page. This is exactly how I got into the blues & celtic folk, by Page interviews which made me seek out these influences and buy their records. I have heard Page acknowledge both Jansch & Graham many, many times...has Spirit or Randy California ever acknowledged Graham?
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10 hours ago, JTM said:
Not a lot of Spirit fans in here, pity, you don't know what you're missing. btw Stairway was inspired by Taurus, imho.
If you truly feel that way then you will also have to acquiesce through logic and fact that Spirit was even more so influenced by Davey Graham's Cry Me A River when they wrote the descending arpeggio structure which does not begin until the middle of the song. The structure between those two songs is almost identical vs. the 4 similar notes shared by only the opening arpeggio in STH. So, if I were Jimmy & Robert, I would find a living relative of Davey to sue the Randy California estate for copying Graham's CMAR and then using a stolen structure to lay the blame on another artist.
One should be careful while strolling through the cactus as one might get pricked. That being said I too enjoy the music of Spirit, not all of it or even most of it but some is pretty good. Taurus is not one of their good songs, it is disjointed and meandering with no real point form beginning to end. Also, according to research, Spirit never played Taurus live at any gig's Zeppelin & Spirit played together, which BTW was only three or four I believe.
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What I find funny is the obvious fact the Davey Graham's Cry Me a River released in 1959 is virtually identical to the riff structure of Taurus, however Stairway differs substantially from both compositions. I truly feel if the defense points this out both through an audio example & through sheet music comparison, the lawsuit is dead. Then again, in this day and age, anything is possible.
Frigging vampires.
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3 hours ago, middlezep said:
Hendrix wins.....,ok theres nothing wrong with being a loser
Especially when Hendrix is the winner. As a guitarist I could not even get in the same building as Hendrix, nor could many, so Page coming in as runner up is pretty damn impressive IMO.
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The real surprise is why neither In The Evening, or All My Love were performed. ITE was a staple of both the 95'-96' & 98' PP tours and AML was a huge hit. One of these should have been performed to represent ITTOD, IMO it should have been ITE. I would have preferred either Hot's or Royal Orleans instead of FYL.
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4 hours ago, Houses of the Holy said:
Strange day today...no Rush tunes popped up in my Google Play shuffle...!
BLASPEHMY!
Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven
in News
Posted
I must concede your point here, you make a good argument with this. Since the jury is made up of lay people, and the scope is much narrower that I thought, it really can go either way. We can only hope the jury can cut through the BS and see the truth. Time will tell.