Yeah, I've never seen/heard of a real lowgen for the Dub/Blimp/TMOQ source, which is why that Empress Valley bootleg was such a surprise, since they obviously got ahold of a copy that only they have access to. Those Neutral Zone CDs were copied so many times by other bootleg labels that it doesn't surprise me that eventually some tape copies were getting traded as lowgens.

Thanks for posting the info. Had forgotten who was involved in those remasters. The version you guys did of the 3/17/73 Munich show is the best version I've heard of that show. So good. Regarding the Dub tape, what I can hear on the Heavy Vibraphones version is that the usual "faked" crowd noise pasted on the beginning of the Vinyl and Neutral Zone CDs, before Immigrant Song, has a loop of a few more seconds of crowd noise that someone must've cut-and-pasted to make sound longer. The original sample came from Dub pasting it on that tape copy that was put onto the vinyl and Neutral Zone CDs, so it shouldn't exist as a "longer" version via a lowgen or the master. It's from after Heartbreaker. There's also the same repeat note before Since I've Been Loving You on the Vibraphones tape, which matches with the Vinyl/Neutral Zone CDs, and all of the songs are cut in the same places, so no new tape either. So Vibraphones was either an edited and re-arranged copy of the Neutral Zone CDs, or an edited version of one of any number of bootleg releases that also copied the Neutral Zone discs. Speaking of, Last Stand Disc did a good version cloning the Neutral Zone CDs and putting the songs in the right order. That's a good one to get to at least get the song order right in the same sound quality as the original Neutral Zone bootleg.

Does the low gen copy of yours have the repeat note at the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You? Does it have all of the same cuts between songs? If so, then it's sourced from the Neutral Zone CDs. There were lots of bootlegs that came out after the Neutral Zone CDs that put the songs back in the correct order, but they also all kept that same repeat before Since I've Been Loving You and they all had the same cuts between songs as the Neutral Zone CDs.

Sorry mate, that's not correct. The lowest generations of the Dub tape are the original Neutral Zone CDs from the 1980s (supposedly pressed up by Dub's ex-partner Ken, so would make sense) and the Empress Valley bootleg from the 2000s. The Neutral Zone CDs used the tape that was put on vinyl back in the 70s, with all the songs out of order, and had that same error/repeat note at the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You just like on the original vinyl. The Empress Valley mix doesn't sound as good as the Neutral Zone CDs, but it has more tape of that source than anything else (check Bootledz to confirm), and the EVSD bootleg came out nearly 20 years after the Neutral Zone discs were made, so I wouldn't be surprised that the master tapes that Empress Valley used probably weren't in very good condition by that point. Also, the Neutral Zone CDs used the tape copy that Dub himself had edited and mixed specifically for the bootleg back in 1970, which Dub is quoted as saying in Clinton Heylin's Bootleg book. So, even though the Empress Valley bootleg doesn't sound as good as Neutral Zone, maybe that's what the master tape sounds like today. The Eat a Peach version is an edited composite of the Neutral Zone CDs and the Empress Valley bootleg, that's why it sounds similar to the Neutral Zone CDs in parts. The signs are in where the cuts are, and many of the source switches and fades on the Eat a Peach version are identical to the Empress Valley bootleg, including all of that extra tape at the end of the show, which is only found on the Empress Valley bootleg. The Heavy Vibraphones group remaster is from a doctored copy of the Neutral Zone CDs, and not from a true lower generation tape of the Dub tape. Besides the pasted extra crowd noise on the beginning, there is the same error/repeat before Since I've Been Loving You that's on the Neutral Zone CDs.

I'm a bit obsessed with the Dub recording. That one's the mono recording that was on the original TMOQ vinyl, which was later issued on the Neutral Zone CDs, and then copied by a ton of bootleg labels. Empress Valley broke the tradition of copying the Neutral Zone CDs by getting ahold of some version of the original Dub mono recording (master?), which they put out on their boxset years ago. I think the Neutral Zone CDs sound better, but the Empress Valley version has more of the source, and they released it spliced with all of the other sources to complete the gig. Eat a Peach is an EQ'd rework of the Empress Valley bootleg (I can't remember if it was a good re-EQ or not?), and Heavy Vibraphones is a fan rework of a cassette copy of the Neutral Zone CDs that I think was being advertised as a lowgen copy of the Dub tape (the giveaway that it's not a lowgen is that there is extra crowd noise faked/copied onto the beginning of the show, while the rest of the same Neutral Zone CD cuts are still there). I wanted to like the Collectively version (different recording - not the same as the Dub tape), but the matrix goes out of sync here and there. I think it must've been compiled in the early days of that sort of thing. For me, I stick with the Empress Valley bootleg if I want the complete show, or the Neutral Zone bootleg if I don't mind the cuts and out of order setlist.

That's why I think the problem was injury-related. Some days his symptoms affected him worse than others. Like a sports injury can plague a player off and on during the whole season.

I think Page did injure his hand in 1975, but I think he just bruised it bad. Those photos show a bloodied nail. Like the other poster mentioned, a finger break would be really hard to play through and recover that quickly from. I think he was really back in the game by early February show, wasn't he?. What I do think is a story is the LA Forum 73 injury. That photo of Page with the bizarre looking cast? What is that about? That looks more like something to treat a broken wrist, maybe. It didn't even have any support on it for his fingers. Yet the supposedly strained a finger. I'd agree with the conspiracy theorists who think that Page was faking the LA injury to mask whatever was really going on.

Remember too that Page's playing was already showing signs of wear in 73, as was mentioned by the earlier posted quote about needing injections after LA 73. But I really think the problem started earlier than that. Listen to New Orleans, May 1973. What was going on there? After years of such fluid playing, Page's fingers were starting to get really sticky, really quick. Dallas 73 too. He may have injured his finger around the LA Forum shows, but it definitely sounds like he was already suffering from something earlier in that month. This is why I've never bought that story about Page spraining his hand before those LA shows. In New Orleans his playing was more affected than the LA shows. Page's comments about needing injections afterwards make sense. Listen to shows from July 73, and Page was playing better than he ever had. Speed, fluidity, etc. I just googled injections for guitarists, and cortisone came up. Maybe something to ease the strain on his hand tendons? According to google, those types of injections provide temporary relief lasting a few weeks, but dedicated physical therapy is needed to get the tendons healthy again. After years of playing 3 hour shows, I'd wager that Page's hands were finally showing some fatigue and tendon injury. He had the problem fixed with injections, but then took a prolonged lay-off, likely with no physical therapy. They started touring again in 1975 and Page's hands had changed by then.

I thought it was established that Page broke his finger at Victoria station in London, prior to leaving for the US tour.

No, I meant, by 1975 Page's playing was in decline. The January Brussels show (pre finger break) proves that. We can theorize about why his playing changed (tendon problems, less concern for his technique), but the Brussels audio proves that by January 1975 Page wasn't at the same level of technical proficiency as he was in July 1973.

Page's broken finger in 1975 lasted all of 2-3 weeks before he was playing normally again. His playing was already in decline before that.

Well, looks like you've solved it. Case closed.

That you are aware of.

Just trying to contribute to the fantasy thread.

Makes perfect sense. I'll alert the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Genesis, and Stevie Wonder fanclubs that Mike was part of their dark underbellies as well.

So, Mike is under some fantasy "Zeppelin world" banner because he taped them multiple times? He taped Yes and Jethro Tull multiple times too. I suppose that also makes him part of the shady "Yes world" and seedy "Jethro Tull world"?

Annoyed by a person's privacy, eh?

Agreed. They will always be vulnerable because the examples are so numerous. While this lawsuit may not have merit, there are still examples of Page's "influences" that will always look bad. If Bert Jansch hadn't listed all of his performances as "Traditional" on Jack Orion, he could've made a killing suing Page for Black Mountainside (Black Waterside), Going to California (Nottamun Town and Henry Martin), Bron-Y-Aur Stomp (Waggoner's Lad), and the multiple releases that feature the live version of White Summer (which includes Bert Jansch's Casbah). Likewise for Davy Graham for White Summer, along with other lifts. Not really sad for Page here. He made millions. He can afford it. He took the material, he should pay the price. Won't change my ability to enjoy listening to Zeppelin's music one bit.

The notes on the D string are both descending, not ascending. This is what binds them together in similarity, and also what makes them both lifts "inspired" by Davy Graham's version of "Cry Me a River". Jimmy didn't copy from Randy, they both copied from Davy. Search for the threads showing how much Page copied from Davy. It's his estate that should be suing Page, with Bert Jansch as a co-plaintiff.

Gotta go with the Irvine show from May 1, 1969 and the Rose Palace shows from May 2 and May 3 1969. These were the first shows after the Fillmore run in San Francisco, and the band were in LA for the week recording Whole Lotta Love. Bound to be incredible gigs.

On the wiki page for Headley, there's a quote from Page mentioning that other bands had rehearsed there. Also, the Rolling Stones mobile truck had only just been put together over the previous few years, so I would imagine that a few bands were itching to use it for the very purpose of not having to sit in a studio to record an album (including the Stones, who I don't think had had a chance to yet). Worth noting that Headley Grange is only about an hour 1/2 outside of London. On the bootleg for the 1972 LA Forum show, Plant tells a story about how the band opted not to go to "London's version of the Whiskey", and stayed in for the night to write the song. So, even though the band were in this house, it wasn't so remote that they couldn't still make it into London to party.

Unfortunately, Southampton was just not a good show. Which is a shame, given how good the band were playing just before, and just after that gig - even with Plant's vocal problems. Call it nerves, but there is something definitely off in that performance. Chalk the How Many More Times inclusion up to something that the band deliberately put on there to salvage the recording, to make it "special". Page's playing on Dazed and Confused is some of his worst of the entire year. To his credit, he was using his backup guitar for that song. Still though, his playing throughout is almost suspiciously off, especially given that Bradford (18 January) and Aberdeen (25 January) were both killer performances. Southampton is one of those examples of a soundboard/multitrack killing the hype rather than confirming it.

Plant's vocal problems started earlier - in March 1971. Damage from his new singing style, courtesy of the songs on the 4th album. I really don't think lack of warmups, or cigarette use had anything to do with it. He simply strained himself too much with songs that required him to scream out at the top of his vocal range. Notice that during the 1970 Aug/Sept tour, he was nailing his vocals every single night. That was his vocal peak, and laid the foundation for his vocals on the 4th album, recorded a few months later in January 1971. The very first show of 1971, at Belfast, and Plant was hitting all of the notes in the new songs Stairway, Rock and Roll, and Black Dog. But it only lasted that one night, and the very next night in Dublin he had stopped singing some of those key high notes, because it was too much to keep up. He obviously kept trying though, because over the 3 weeks of shows on that Clubs tour he ended up losing his voice, which he mentions on the BBC sessions performance from April 1971, at the end of that tour. He kept singing through 1971, and after the short periods of time off, he had some great moments at Copenhagen, Montreux, and the first LA Forum show, but he never regained the ability to hit those really really high notes, even at those shows where he had rest. Most shows in 1971 had some kind of voice crack that wasn't there before - something that never happened in September 1970, which had just as rigorous of a touring schedule. From there, starting in August/September 1971, it was a gradual loss, over many months. But the beginning of the end definitely started with that clubs tour. Into 1972, Plant's voice had even more ups and downs, and imo his last "true" voice was the June 14 show at Uniondale. His singing during the cover of "Weekend" in the encore is kind of the swan song to his original voice - and Plant nails every high note. That show was the last time they ever covered that song. For the rest of the 1972 summer tour, Plant started using that falsetto voice to mimic the highs for his singing, which you can hear all over HTWWW.

Paris, April 1, 1973. Page and Bonham's peak. Gets my vote!

I completely agree with that. The same goes for Earls Court. They had a specific agenda for those shows (to deliver the big American set to their countrymen), and it has kind of the same effect. Not the best playing the band ever did, and it's almost more about the vibe and feel of the shows. Whether they played good or not, the shows were still important events. I think that applies to the entire Forum run of 1975.