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manderlyh

The Black Sabbath Thread

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Wow, it seems you're actually being serious here, danelectro. I really thought you were kidding. Ok then, FWIW, here's my assessment:

PARANOID: With the exception of Planet Caravan, which is a pleasant enough but essentially one-dimensional and repetitive groovy magic carpet ride, the whole album boils down to simple, heads-down-no-nonsense-mindless-boogie. The only variation within or between the songs is provided by jarring time-changes and the Frankenstein-esque welding together of incongruous segments. Admittedly, this was one of the Sabs' trademarks, but in their early days it made for frankly comical listening at times, and it took them until SBS to master the art of linking the disparate passages to create a flowing, cohesive whole. Iommi's soloing is repetitive and generally directionless, somewhat akin to a cat chasing its tail, and is widely accepted as not being his strongest suit. Ozzy's vocals are strong but one-dimensional, and he was and remains incapable of carrying a ballad, or emoting anything other than anger or insanity.

LZII: Whilst still principally founded on basic blues structures, the song construction and balance was a vast progression from LZI, which I have always seen as a fairly grey, almost dismal album. But by LZII, their construction of segmental songs was vastly superior to that of the Sabs. WLL and BIOH, for example, move through various differing sections, but those sections form a pleasing and logical coalescence. Plant's deftness of touch on WIAWSNB, Thank You and Ramble On were a joy to behold, and something Ozzy could only dream of achieving. Page's riffing was considered, varied and sensibly paced. The expressiveness and variety of his soloing is evident and undeniable throughout, but peaks on Ramble On and WIAWSNB. The balance, poise and elegance of his slide solo in the latter is one of his high-water marks IMO, and that song alone is an object lesson in the 'light and shade' for which LZ are rightly revered, and which the Sabs almost totally lacked.

As for the rhythm sections, whenever the going gets tough, Ward and Butler are all over the place, but JPJ and Bonzo stay tight as a gnat's chuff throughout. And Moby Dick OWNS Rat Salad.

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Someone mentioned George Benson, I said I liked him and named two songs I particularly loved. No one said he had anything to do with Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin. It's called "responding to a comment someone made". Someone who by the by, was not you.

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Awww, precious. I wasn't talking to you, though.

Edited by Electrophile

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Wow, it seems you're actually being serious here, danelectro. I really thought you were kidding. Ok then, FWIW, here's my assessment:

PARANOID: With the exception of Planet Caravan, which is a pleasant enough but essentially one-dimensional and repetitive groovy magic carpet ride, the whole album boils down to simple, heads-down-no-nonsense-mindless-boogie. The only variation within or between the songs is provided by jarring time-changes and the Frankenstein-esque welding together of incongruous segments. Admittedly, this was one of the Sabs' trademarks, but in their early days it made for frankly comical listening at times, and it took them until SBS to master the art of linking the disparate passages to create a flowing, cohesive whole. Iommi's soloing is repetitive and generally directionless, somewhat akin to a cat chasing its tail, and is widely accepted as not being his strongest suit. Ozzy's vocals are strong but one-dimensional, and he was and remains incapable of carrying a ballad, or emoting anything other than anger or insanity.

LZII: Whilst still principally founded on basic blues structures, the song construction and balance was a vast progression from LZI, which I have always seen as a fairly grey, almost dismal album. But by LZII, their construction of segmental songs was vastly superior to that of the Sabs. WLL and BIOH, for example, move through various differing sections, but those sections form a pleasing and logical coalescence. Plant's deftness of touch on WIAWSNB, Thank You and Ramble On were a joy to behold, and something Ozzy could only dream of achieving. Page's riffing was considered, varied and sensibly paced. The expressiveness and variety of his soloing is evident and undeniable throughout, but peaks on Ramble On and WIAWSNB. The balance, poise and elegance of his slide solo in the latter is one of his high-water marks IMO, and that song alone is an object lesson in the 'light and shade' for which LZ are rightly revered, and which the Sabs almost totally lacked.

As for the rhythm sections, whenever the going gets tough, Ward and Butler are all over the place, but JPJ and Bonzo stay tight as a gnat's chuff throughout. And Moby Dick OWNS Rat Salad.

Now this is great writing, seriously entertaining to read. However it fails to demonstrate differences between the bands in musical terms and that's what I was asking for. But again kudos for taking the time to post your opinions in such a creative way. Though I must say it actually helps prove my point, that the casual listener with an untrained ear doesn't really understand what they are hearing. That you consider BIOH, which is a blues in E with 3 chords, an example of superiority is puzzling. I should also point out things like dynamics, volume and tempo changes, aren't really signs of musical sophistication. It can help to create tension and draw the listener in but it was a well worn technique long before either Zep and Sabbath came along.

BTW my point was never to pit Sabbath against LZ, both have always been on my short list of faves. The only reason I've posted what I have, and I stand by this, is that most rock bands are not treading the ground of musical sophistication. I know that's difficult for some to grasp, when they hear a band like Zep delicately pick out a tune with acoustic guitar in hand most don't understand that the only difference between that and their harder material is the type of guitar used and the volume. More often that not it's more of the same, simple songs with little movement. That's not a bad thing and certainly not an insult, it's the simplicity of rock and roll that makes it breathe. That's the genius of bands like Sabbath and Zep, they can take you on a rollercoaster ride without being fussy about it.

That said without a doubt some bands inject a little more complexity into it than others. Bands like King Crimson and others that dabbled in more experimental music pushed it pretty far out there. This doesn't make them better or worse than anyone else it just means they had different musical goals. Anyway I digress. Since I've made my point as well as I care to and since there isn't any interest to discuss the actual musical differences between the two bands some have chosen to compete against each other, in ways that would be nearly impossible to distinguish due to there being more similarites than differences, I'll leave it like this. Rock and roll is the music of rebellion and by and large rooted in simplicity and repetition. It's not classical or jazz where complexity is the norm but at times it's practioners utilize those elements and more in creative ways.

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Define the casual listener with an untrained ear? Do you mean someone that does not play an instrument and know how to read or write music?

Do me a favor and stop trying to interact with me on this forum. I've tried to be civil with you, actually have defended you a few times, even sent you a PM stating that I feel at times others have been overly aggressive towards you. However you are simply too wrapped up in your Zep worship, complete with bizarre opinions and no grasp of facts to discuss anything, with you it has to be a circle jerk declaring Zep the champions of all things music or nothing. My payback for that was you doing to me what has made you the enemy of others here and now I realize the problem has been you all along.

Anyway back to Sabbath. I still haven't picked up the Heaven and Hell releases yet and hopefully I will this weekend if I have time to head to the indie store, it seems the CD\DVD selections at the big box stores is getting smaller every day. Was fortunate enough to catch them live a few times before Dio passed, good times.

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George Benson is awesome. Give Me The Night and This Masquerade are great songs.

This Masquerade is a Leon Russell song. George covered a brilliant song.

Edited by JethroTull

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Wow, it seems you're actually being serious here, danelectro. I really thought you were kidding. Ok then, FWIW, here's my assessment:

PARANOID: With the exception of Planet Caravan, which is a pleasant enough but essentially one-dimensional and repetitive groovy magic carpet ride, the whole album boils down to simple, heads-down-no-nonsense-mindless-boogie. The only variation within or between the songs is provided by jarring time-changes and the Frankenstein-esque welding together of incongruous segments. Admittedly, this was one of the Sabs' trademarks, but in their early days it made for frankly comical listening at times, and it took them until SBS to master the art of linking the disparate passages to create a flowing, cohesive whole. Iommi's soloing is repetitive and generally directionless, somewhat akin to a cat chasing its tail, and is widely accepted as not being his strongest suit. Ozzy's vocals are strong but one-dimensional, and he was and remains incapable of carrying a ballad, or emoting anything other than anger or insanity.

LZII: Whilst still principally founded on basic blues structures, the song construction and balance was a vast progression from LZI, which I have always seen as a fairly grey, almost dismal album. But by LZII, their construction of segmental songs was vastly superior to that of the Sabs. WLL and BIOH, for example, move through various differing sections, but those sections form a pleasing and logical coalescence. Plant's deftness of touch on WIAWSNB, Thank You and Ramble On were a joy to behold, and something Ozzy could only dream of achieving. Page's riffing was considered, varied and sensibly paced. The expressiveness and variety of his soloing is evident and undeniable throughout, but peaks on Ramble On and WIAWSNB. The balance, poise and elegance of his slide solo in the latter is one of his high-water marks IMO, and that song alone is an object lesson in the 'light and shade' for which LZ are rightly revered, and which the Sabs almost totally lacked.

As for the rhythm sections, whenever the going gets tough, Ward and Butler are all over the place, but JPJ and Bonzo stay tight as a gnat's chuff throughout. And Moby Dick OWNS Rat Salad.

You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands.

Edited by JethroTull

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Do me a favor and stop trying to interact with me on this forum. I've tried to be civil with you, actually have defended you a few times, even sent you a PM stating that I feel at times others have been overly aggressive towards you. However you are simply too wrapped up in your Zep worship, complete with bizarre opinions and no grasp of facts to discuss anything, with you it has to be a circle jerk declaring Zep the champions of all things music or nothing. My payback for that was you doing to me what has made you the enemy of others here and now I realize the problem has been you all along.

Anyway back to Sabbath. I still haven't picked up the Heaven and Hell releases yet and hopefully I will this weekend if I have time to head to the indie store, it seems the CD\DVD selections at the big box stores is getting smaller every day. Was fortunate enough to catch them live a few times before Dio passed, good times.

Its worship because I stated the obvious that Led zeppelin is a far better band than Black Sabbath? When did you pm me? There is a certain one individual that is always over agressive with me. I have my friends here and you can have yours. You couldnt answer the simple question could you Mr expert? Thats it. Im done talking to you. Have a nice day.

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For those that may have missed it when it originally aired (and it's many subsequent airings), this is well worth your viewing time. VH1 Classic seldom does anything worth tuning in for but with this series (Heavy: The Story of Metal) they knocked it out of the ballpark. It just goes to show they can offer up quality programming when they really set their minds to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lea-l1q8Nho

Edited by Jahfin

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Now this is great writing, seriously entertaining to read. However it fails to demonstrate differences between the bands in musical terms and that's what I was asking for. But again kudos for taking the time to post your opinions in such a creative way. Though I must say it actually helps prove my point, that the casual listener with an untrained ear doesn't really understand what they are hearing. That you consider BIOH, which is a blues in E with 3 chords, an example of superiority is puzzling.

Without a doubt some bands inject a little more complexity into it than others. Bands like King Crimson and others that dabbled in more experimental music pushed it pretty far out there.

How very patronising, and how very predictable that you bring up King Crimson. All the worst musical snobs, pedants and pseuds usually do.

Fascinating as well to learn that, despite having spent over 40 years listening avidly and open-mindedly to most forms of popular music and possessing a semi-decent grasp of music theory, I am nevertheless a 'casual listener with an untrained ear'. Seems I've been wasting my time, and that all the value judgements and emotional investments I've made over the years have been wrong or worthless because I haven't understood what I'm hearing.

Duh - I quit. I'll leave it all to the bedroom pros.

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How very patronising, and how very predictable that you bring up King Crimson. All the worst musical snobs, pedants and pseuds usually do.

Fascinating as well to learn that, despite having spent over 40 years listening avidly and open-mindedly to most forms of popular music and possessing a semi-decent grasp of music theory, I am nevertheless a 'casual listener with an untrained ear'. Seems I've been wasting my time, and that all the value judgements and emotional investments I've made over the years have been wrong or worthless because I haven't understood what I'm hearing.

Duh - I quit. I'll leave it all to the bedroom pros.

I'm sorry if you feel insulted that was not my intention. If I've mistakenly decoded what you claimed was a serious post comparing two albums it was because it lacked any musical comparisons and read like a Rolling Stone editorial.

Edited to add BTW I really did find it entertaining.

Edited by danelectro

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For those that may have missed it when it originally aired (and it's many subsequent airings), this is well worth your viewing time. VH1 Classic seldom does anything worth tuning in for but with this series (Heavy: The Story of Metal) they knocked it out of the ballpark. It just goes to show they can offer up quality programming when they really set their minds to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lea-l1q8Nho

I have the full program on my computer. I'm not a heavy metal fan by any means, but I found it to be very interesting and insightful.

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LED ZEPPeLIN R THE BEST BAND EVAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!! JIMMY PAGE RUUUUUULLEZ LOL!

Right, can we get this thread back to being a discussion on Black Sabbath and not Led Zeppelin Vs Black Sabbath, please? :)

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I have the full program on my computer. I'm not a heavy metal fan by any means, but I found it to be very interesting and insightful.

I think I saw most every installment of it and enjoyed it as well even though I'm not a huge metal fan.

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LED ZEPPeLIN R THE BEST BAND EVAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!! JIMMY PAGE RUUUUUULLEZ LOL!

Right, can we get this thread back to being a discussion on Black Sabbath and not Led Zeppelin Vs Black Sabbath, please? :)

An eminently sensible suggestion, Ady. I'm still smarting from being accused of sounding like a Rolling Stone writer. But I'll get over it.

Right then - anyone for a Sabs v Purple bun-fight?

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Anyone heard these early recordings before?

The Rebel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxRwaZodUnc

When I came Down

I've heard The Rebel before, it's usually included in most documentary clips as an introduction to the bands beginnings. The other not sure but it sounds familiar, though that could be because you can hear the influence Ten Years After had on the Sabs in that one. With all that is out there these days, youtube, torrents etc. I haven't taken the time to go back and explore what rare Sabbath stuff is out there. Thx for posting those.

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I've heard The Rebel before, it's usually included in most documentary clips as an introduction to the bands beginnings. The other not sure but it sounds familiar, though that could be because you can hear the influence Ten Years After had on the Sabs in that one. With all that is out there these days, youtube, torrents etc. I haven't taken the time to go back and explore what rare Sabbath stuff is out there. Thx for posting those.

No worries, the second one is a cover, this is the original.

A band called Stone Axe do a Sabbath style version on the myspace: http://www.myspace.com/stoneaxe

Edit: Just found video of them performing it live too.

Edited by Ady

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LED ZEPPeLIN R THE BEST BAND EVAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!! JIMMY PAGE RUUUUUULLEZ LOL!

Right, can we get this thread back to being a discussion on Black Sabbath and not Led Zeppelin Vs Black Sabbath, please? :)

LOL??? This is a Led zeppelin site so no need to put down Page and the group now is there? Many on this site believe they are the best band ever. Your bold letter sarcastic post was not necessary. :wtf:

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LOL??? This is a Led zeppelin site so no need to put down Page and the group now is there? Many on this site believe they are the best band ever. Your bold letter sarcastic post was not necessary. :wtf:

Maybe not, but this was originally intended to be a Black Sabbath discussion thread, not a Led Zeppelin Vs Black Sabbath thread.

Look at the original post, it says;

Come on, everybody! Let's talk Sabbath!

It does not say;

Who's better, Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath?

So please stop trying to derail the thread after I've made an effort to get it back on course. It was a good thread before all the arguing started.

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LOL??? This is a Led zeppelin site so no need to put down Page and the group now is there? Many on this site believe they are the best band ever. Your bold letter sarcastic post was not necessary. :wtf:

Silvermedalist, let them have their fun. I actually thought Ady's big banner headline was meant to be taken seriously, but obviously I was wrong. But all this pissing and moaning will get us nowhere. However, regardless of whether LZ are indeed the best band ever, I think it's fair to say that they're a whole lot better than Sabbath. Here's how I see it: Sabbath were humble and unassuming tree-fellers, whereas Zep took wood and fashioned fine carvings out of it, or wrote holy books on the paper.

Or, if you prefer, here's a geographical analogy: Zep were the Cambridge to the Sabs' Manea. As a fellow resident of Cambridgeshire, I'm confident that Ady will appreciate what I'm getting at here.

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