A question about studio outtakes

[captain_apathy]

Hello all, just joined the forum although I have been a Led Zeppelin fan for many years and been collecting their live shows for a few now as well. first let me say I am not sure if this is the correct forum for this topic but am honestly not sure where else to post it. This is the Led Zeppelin live forum after all and this is about studio outtakes but then this also seems to be the place members most often discuss boots. I recently downloaded the Scorpio 'Studio Sessions Ultimate' box set but having done a bit of reading I get the impression their are a few things out there not on this set,for example some of the 'Battle of Evermore' outtakes,does anyone know which other outtakes are out there and not present on the Scorpio set? and on what cd's one might find them? Thanks in advance for any info anyone might provide.Hope all of you are doing well and sorry if this post is in the wrong spot or anything.

[3hrsoflunacy]

That is a good question, someone should get around to making a master list. Going through my stuff, this is what I come up with after a quick glance:

1. More complete Led Zeppelin II outtakes for WLL, Heartbreaker, Ramble On, and What Is And What Should Never Be.

2. A few more Battle of Evermore outtakes.

3. John Bonham isolate drum tracks for Carouselambra, Ozone Baby, All My Love, Wearing & Tearing, Fool in the rain, and others.

4. There is a better version of The Wanton Song found on track 25 of disc 10. Better version is from WPLJ 95.5 broadcast.

5. Pre-Vocal mixes of Celebration Day, Four Sticks, Hey Hey What Can I Do, and Out on the Tiles

6. Another version of When the Levee Breaks

7. Another version of STH (labeled as a newly discovered Alt Take) Although I am not totally convinced it is really Jimmy's solo.

I am sure there are more, but without delving into it further that's what I can see right away.

[tmtomh]

I think EV's 'Lost Mixes/Sessions' series (vols 1-11) mops up most of the other stuff.

After getting Studio Sessions Ultimate, this EVSD series is definitely where I'd go next.

[captain_apathy]

Thanks for the replies, I am checking out the Lost sessions and Lost Mixes set right now

[Melcórë]

The majority of the Lost Mixes/Sessions discs pre-date Scorpio's offering.

[...]

7. Another version of STH (labeled as a newly discovered Alt Take) Although I am not totally convinced it is really Jimmy's solo.

Why? Because it's abhorrent? The alternate mix/take also features a completely different recorder part during the opening section of the song.

[3hrsoflunacy]

The majority of the Lost Mixes/Sessions discs pre-date Scorpio's offering.

Why? Because it's abhorrent? The alternate mix/take also features a completely different recorder part during the opening section of the song.

This outtake sounds completely different than all the others, almost as if the released version was played and the solo layered over it. The solo as played down not strike me as Jimmy both in the sound, texture and the way it was played. Just my opinion.

[the chase]

I have on tape a version of No Quarter with a lot more of the synthesizer and theremin effects..

Same version different mix..

Also a version of Hat's off to Roy Harper with different lyrics...

[Melcórë]

This outtake sounds completely different than all the others, almost as if the released version was played and the solo layered over it. The solo as played down not strike me as Jimmy both in the sound, texture and the way it was played. Just my opinion.

...Again, like everyone who holds this opinion, you completely glossed over the fact that it isn't just the solo that's different from the released version. Why would they fake a guitar solo overdub if another part of the track is (or appears to be) genuine?

Don't get me wrong - I wish it was fake. But it sounds a lot like Jimmy to me - Jimmy on an off night (or post-73) but still...

I have on tape a version of No Quarter with a lot more of the synthesizer and theremin effects..

Same version different mix..

Also a version of Hat's off to Roy Harper with different lyrics...

I'm pretty sure all of those (plus the "Since I've Been Loving You" vocal thing) were released on Scorpio's set.

[the chase]

I'm pretty sure all of those (plus the "Since I've Been Loving You" vocal thing) were released on Scorpio's set.

Must be the same .... now that you mention it.. There's a version of SIBLY with some added Vocals on that same tape..

[Glyn]

^What I can only assume is a multitrack mix down. That SIBLY track is my absolute favorite next to the regular speed version of No Quarter and the Swan Song demo.

On the Stairway thing, why can't it be that this may be an alternate mixdown of the song? As the LZ II multis have shown us, there's extra solos and guitar bits sprinkled throughout Ramble On and WIAWSNB. As far as the solo could it be someone playing tricks, sure, but I don't think it is. What about the Heartbreaker solo from the multis? That is god awful and it's a little sad that it's Page, but it is. Assuming that the Stairway track isn't Page, are there any versions of the song circulating without the solo? How would someone overdub it without us being able to hear the solo underneath?

To me, it sounds like Page. It resembles some of the things he's played live, and it just sounds like the way he plays. Not trying to change your mind, just discussing.

[3hrsoflunacy]

...Again, like everyone who holds this opinion, you completely glossed over the fact that it isn't just the solo that's different from the released version. Why would they fake a guitar solo overdub if another part of the track is (or appears to be) genuine?

Don't get me wrong - I wish it was fake. But it sounds a lot like Jimmy to me - Jimmy on an off night (or post-73) but still...

You don't read very well, do you? My original statement was: I am not totally convinced it is really Jimmy's solo. Of course I am gonna "gloss over the fact it isn't just the solo", when my original statement was about the solo and you asked why.

As you think it sounds a lot like Jimmy, to me it doesn't.

Edited May 29, 2012 by 3hrsoflunacy

[3hrsoflunacy]

That is god awful and it's a little sad that it's Page, but it is.

That made me laugh.

Certainly anything is possible with what you proposed. I just happen to have the unpopular opinion that it "doesn't sound like Jimmy" and that doesn't go over well here at the kiddie table.

[Glyn]

That made me laugh.

Certainly anything is possible with what you proposed. I just happen to have the unpopular opinion that it "doesn't sound like Jimmy" and that doesn't go over well here at the kiddie table.

That's cool. There were a few others who hold the same opinion.

I have the Scorpio set and most of what 3hrs listed. I am lacking all of the Battle of Evermore tracks and only have Bohnam's tracks in mp3 format. I also believe that I don't have the alternate version of Hats Off.

[Sagittarius Rising]

Generally speaking, when a musician is putting together a song, the solo break can make all the difference so the process works like this. The basic track is laid and the melody and arraingement is hammered out. Once the song structure is complete and it's time for the solo, the guitarist first needs to decide the basic composition and structure. As a guitarist myself, and knowing several very famous guitarists (Robin Trower, John McCloughlin, and Robert Cray), when the direction of the solo is being figured out the guitarist is essentially "noodleing about" sometimes going in very strange directions and trying new things which until hammered out essentially sound like shit. If anyone seriously believes even an amazing techincal guitarist like Steve Vai sounds perfect and polished while creating, you're nuts, he sounds like shit too. Case in point, I have been around probably one of the greatest techincal guitarists in history, John McCloughlin, while he was noodleing about and guess what??? He sounded like he just picked up the damn guitar for the first time.

When I used to play in bands back in the late 80's, I realized the hard way that when you make a mistake live while playing with other musicians, it can be very hard to find your way back into the song. Compounding the live factor and fear of screwing up even more...forget it! This shit is hard, if it were easy, anyone could do it. Well, excluding Coldplay and Nickelback.

It amazes me how many non-musicians think like this. Talk about armchair quarterbacking.

[captain_apathy]

The majority of the Lost Mixes/Sessions discs pre-date Scorpio's offering

I thought I recalled reading something to the effect that the Scorpio set did not have most/any of the outtakes that appeared in the 6 or 7 years before it came out, not saying this is the case just something that popped into my head for what ever little it may be worth ha ha.

[3hrsoflunacy]

That's cool. There were a few others who hold the same opinion.

I have the Scorpio set and most of what 3hrs listed. I am lacking all of the Battle of Evermore tracks and only have Bohnam's tracks in mp3 format. I also believe that I don't have the alternate version of Hats Off.

I assume the alternate version of Hats Off people are referring is called "Feel So Bad Medley" on disc 2, track 14 of the Scorpio set. I will hook you up with the others via pm in the next day or so at the other site.

[Nutrocker]

Generally speaking, when a musician is putting together a song, the solo break can make all the difference so the process works like this. The basic track is laid and the melody and arraingement is hammered out. Once the song structure is complete and it's time for the solo, the guitarist first needs to decide the basic composition and structure. As a guitarist myself, and knowing several very famous guitarists (Robin Trower, John McCloughlin, and Robert Cray), when the direction of the solo is being figured out the guitarist is essentially "noodleing about" sometimes going in very strange directions and trying new things which until hammered out essentially sound like shit. If anyone seriously believes even an amazing techincal guitarist like Steve Vai sounds perfect and polished while creating, you're nuts, he sounds like shit too. Case in point, I have been around probably one of the greatest techincal guitarists in history, John McCloughlin, while he was noodleing about and guess what??? He sounded like he just picked up the damn guitar for the first time.

When I used to play in bands back in the late 80's, I realized the hard way that when you make a mistake live while playing with other musicians, it can be very hard to find your way back into the song. Compounding the live factor and fear of screwing up even more...forget it! This shit is hard, if it were easy, anyone could do it. Well, excluding Coldplay and Nickelback.

It amazes me how many non-musicians think like this. Talk about armchair quarterbacking.

Yeah, I'd agree that 'non musicians' are more willing to 'armchair quarterback' than people who've been there and done it themselves (like I did, back in the days when dinosaurs walked the earth ) But IMO musicians tend to be even more critical and unforgiving of people's mistakes. I've mentioned this before: an old friend of mine, virtuoso guitar player, loves Hendrix, Page, et al, but to this day whenever he's over he can't help but making some comment like "Tune yer fucking guitar!!!" or chuckle at a sloppy solo. Hell, I'm the guy who listens to some later-period Zeppelin shows just to pick out the goddamn mistakes...could I do better, I hear you ask? Probably not, but then I ain't world famous like Jimmy Page or Jimi Hendrix. I can hit as many clams as I want in the privacy of my own home...

But, as far as studio goes, take "Hot Dog", for example. The lead guitar work in that tune is sloppy as hell, and not in a good way. I can't imagine anyone other than Jimmy Page himself being in the producer's chair letting that kind of playing pass. Yet he did, and put it out for all the world to hear. I know, a lot of people talk about "feel VS perfection", but, Jesus Christ, ya gotta draw the line somewhere. Sometimes "Oh, that's good enough" simply isn't.

And, quite frankly, it doesn't matter if yer musically inclined or not to notice and/or comment on those kinda things...I don't think it requires a degree from Berklee to be able to tell if a guitar solo is well played or not.

[Glyn]

I assume the alternate version of Hats Off people are referring is called "Feel So Bad Medley" on disc 2, track 14 of the Scorpio set. I will hook you up with the others via pm in the next day or so at the other site.

Oh, alright. Thanks!

[Melcórë]

You don't read very well, do you? My original statement was: I am not totally convinced it is really Jimmy's solo. Of course I am gonna "gloss over the fact it isn't just the solo", when my original statement was about the solo and you asked why.

As you think it sounds a lot like Jimmy, to me it doesn't.

But isn't that glossing over the entire track, seeing as no one ever mentions the other section - why would they only fake the guitar solo? Unless you (and others) believe the recorder section to be faked as well?

Your opinion is your opinion, ultimately.

I thought I recalled reading something to the effect that the Scorpio set did not have most/any of the outtakes that appeared in the 6 or 7 years before it came out, not saying this is the case just something that popped into my head for what ever little it may be worth ha ha.

As far as I'm aware, the Scorpio set has most of what came before. It's only missing what came after it, for the most part: Namely the better-quality alternate "Wanton Song," and the "Stairway to Heaven" with which this thread has been preoccupied. It also lacks the alternate mix of "The Song Remains the Same" from the Akashic set The Smitereens.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Melcórë