Pagey's Danelectro

[Kolibri282]

Hi,

I was more than a little lucky to see the O2 concert in the UK in 2007. I saw Zeppelin at Knebworth on August 11th and Page and Plant at Wembley in the 90's.

I've been a fanatic since the early 70's and haven't stopped being a fan since. Usual story, bootlegs to the ceiling, learning to play the songs on bass and guitar, jamming in

a band doing covers of the songs etc..

Anyway. I have a couple of questions:

At the O2 concert I was a bit amazed to see that Pagey wasn't using the Danelectro for the two most obvious songs it would have been used for. : In My Time Of Dying

and Kashmir. Seeing as it was such a huge event for the Zeppelin history I would have thought the Danelectro being so iconic and a Pagey trademark would have made an appearance.

Does anyone know why it wasn't used?

I'm interested know how The Rain Song was constructed. Did Page write the whole piece including the orchestrated section or did Jonesy write the orchestral part to fit round Page's

guitar parts?. I'm learning to play the piece and the more I get into it the more incredible it becomes. How the hell did Page conjure up that tuning and create a masterpiece like that?

In a normal tuning it would have been amazing enough, but that tuning??!!

Steve in the USA

[IpMan]

Hi Steve,

I believe the reason why the Dano was not used at the O2 was because Jimmy may have had an endorsement deal with Gibson at the time, not 100% sure but I did hear this somewhere. During the gig Page played Gibson's exclusively, from his #1, 2, & 3 LPS, the black beauty custom, the double neck, and the hollow body used for IMTOD. In the studio he used the cream strat for FYL but used the BB LPC for it at the O2. During Zeppelin's 75' - 80' tours he used LP, Strat's, Tele's, the Dano, the double neck, and even an RD Artist on stage. That's my take on it anyway, possible Gibson endorsement.

The Rain Song was originally a Page only composition as a guitar piece which evolved into what we know it as with the strings, piano, bass, drums, and of course vocals. That tuning he used I agree, where on earth did he come up with that? Did another guitarist tune him into it or did he discover it on his own? Either way the tune is quite amazing and is in my top 5 Page compositions.

[Elixir]

I know this isn't the type of answer you're looking for but I'm so happy he didn't bring it out for the O2 concert. Love the look but not the thin sound. I couldn't love the guitar sound from the O2 more than I do -- Gibson full and crunchy with the distortion turned up a bit. JP opting not to use the Danelectro for Kashmir is part of what made it the best live version I've heard, along with RP's world-weary vocals (yes I know most people disagree with that assessment).

[sixpense]

Page hasn't used the Danelectro in a long time. For the Page and Plant Unledded shoe (and subsequent shows) Jimmy used the Gold Les Paul Transperformance guitar. It allows him to tune the guitar in just seconds with the push of a button. He used this trick as part of his solo section as well.

In a recent New York appearance he was interviewed about The Rain Song and stated he had all the music complete on a demo. He played melltron on the demo. I'm sure Jones added some arrangement ideas (such as the stand up bass) as well.

[kayley10]

... and stated he had all the music complete on a demo. He played melltron on the demo.

Why wasn't it on the flippin' reissue then???

[And You Know How It Is?]

Also keep in mind that Plant requested that Jimmy and Jonesy lower their instrument tunings an octave or two, so he could be heard (much to the late Cream bassist, Jack Bruce's, chagrin as he ripped the O2 show through the press and pointed to this about the O2 show).

Wondering if this down tuning made Jimmy and Jonesy bring in new instruments for the O2?

[journeytoroom101]

I know this isn't the type of answer you're looking for but I'm so happy he didn't bring it out for the O2 concert. Love the look but not the thin sound. I couldn't love the guitar sound from the O2 more than I do -- Gibson full and crunchy with the distortion turned up a bit. JP opting not to use the Danelectro for Kashmir is part of what made it the best live version I've heard, along with RP's world-weary vocals (yes I know most people disagree with that assessment).

Well now we have an army of 2

BTW, I believe the last live appearance of ye old Dano was Mr. Page's stint of live shows with the Crows back in 2001.

[lcondo123]

Well now we have an army of 2

BTW, I believe the last live appearance of ye old Dano was Mr. Page's stint of live shows with the Crows back in 2001.

He also used it for the Kashmir section of It Might Get Loud in 2008.

Its not "live" but he's using it

[sixpense]

Why wasn't it on the flippin' reissue then???

More than likely because it was only him on the tape and not the rest of the band. The demo was probably used to guide the rest of the band.

In contrast, Pete Townsend on Quadrophenia took his demos and had the rest of the band overdub their parts on to a safety copy of the original demo.

[woz70]

Also keep in mind that Plant requested that Jimmy and Jonesy lower their instrument tunings an octave or two, so he could be heard (much to the late Cream bassist, Jack Bruce's, chagrin as he ripped the O2 show through the press and pointed to this about the O2 show).

Wondering if this down tuning made Jimmy and Jonesy bring in new instruments for the O2?

They didn't tune down an octave or two!! It was generally down a tone (two semitones) from E to D. Down-tuning wouldn't really affect Jimmy at all as all he had to do was literally tune the guitars down, and play everything the way he was used to. Jonesy would have had a bit more of a challenge on the keyboard based songs - but he's a very accomplished keyboard payer so I doubt it threw him out too much.

Also the down-tuning wasn't so that Robert could be heard - it was so he didn't have to sing some songs as high in pitch as he used to, mostly so that his voice would last out for the concert without having to strain.

As for the tunings for Kashmir and the Rain song - Page didn't so much come up with them himself as appropriate them from other players he'd seen and then maybe adapt them. Page had seen The DADGAD tuning (kashmir) being used by Bert Jansch for his song Black Waterside (which Jimmy pretty much lifted wholesale for Black Mountainside), and he used it first for White Summer, and also for Midnight Moonlight/Swan Song.

The DGCGCD tuning he uses for The Rain Song seems to be pretty unique, but isn't far from the DGDGBD (open G) he used for Dancing Days, That's The Way and Black Country Woman, so he probably discovered the Rain Song tuning when he was tuning a guitar to open G.

[kirchzep27]

I know the danelectro sounds thin and twangy on some zep bootlegs. But it sounded great in 1988 when i saw an outrider show. Page's condensed and energized white summer was so effective and enjoyable to hear. I imagine a version like that, being an amazing intro to kashmir in 1980. As it was in 88, very cool within midnight moonlight.

One thing about the hollow body guitar in 07, is that to me, watching the dvd, i feel his playing is slower and more methodical at times...and yet listening to the cd, all the slide work sounds fine. Maybe seeing that guitar is throwing my perception of the song. It was a smooth and huge sound with that guitar though. Still, it would have been cool just to hear kashmir or imtod with the danelectro in 07 with such a great recording going on.

[Dr Death]

I know the danelectro sounds thin and twangy on some zep bootlegs. But it sounded great in 1988 when i saw an outrider show. Page's condensed and energized white summer was so effective and enjoyable to hear. I imagine a version like that, being an amazing intro to kashmir in 1980. As it was in 88, very cool within midnight moonlight.

One thing about the hollow body guitar in 07, is that to me, watching the dvd, i feel his playing is slower and more methodical at times...and yet listening to the cd, all the slide work sounds fine. Maybe seeing that guitar is throwing my perception of the song. It was a smooth and huge sound with that guitar though. Still, it would have been cool just to hear kashmir or imtod with the danelectro in 07 with such a great recording going on.

One thing that should be noted about his Danelectro and 1988... on that tour he had TWO Danelectro guitars. The one he used in Zeppelin, with what I call the "Whale pickguard" since the pickguard sort of looks like a whale... and then the next song in the setlist on that tour was In My Time Of Dying, and even though he is heard on numerous bootlegs saying... "Even though I have got the same guitar, we're not going to play Midnight Moonlight again. Let's see if you remember this one..."

Only thing is... he didn't have the same guitar. Midnight Moonlight is tuned to D-A-D-G-A-D and In My Time is Open A. In the clip below, if you go to the 41:50 mark you'll see an abbreviated Midnight Moonlight and then after that you'll see him plugging in his second Danelectro that has a much shorter pickguard. In this clip he doesn't say the line about having the same guitar though. You can also see the second Danelectro in the "preview" photo before playing the video.

[sixpense]

I know the danelectro sounds thin and twangy on some zep bootlegs. But it sounded great in 1988 when i saw an outrider show. Page's condensed and energized white summer was so effective and enjoyable to hear. I imagine a version like that, being an amazing intro to kashmir in 1980. As it was in 88, very cool within midnight moonlight.

One thing about the hollow body guitar in 07, is that to me, watching the dvd, i feel his playing is slower and more methodical at times...and yet listening to the cd, all the slide work sounds fine. Maybe seeing that guitar is throwing my perception of the song. It was a smooth and huge sound with that guitar though. Still, it would have been cool just to hear kashmir or imtod with the danelectro in 07 with such a great recording going on.

What adds to the sound as well is the fact that the body is made of fiberglass as opposed to wood.

[woz70]

What adds to the sound as well is the fact that the body is made of fiberglass as opposed to wood.

Actually the body is made from Masonite, which is a form of hardboard made from compressed wood and paper fibres. So technically it is wood... but only just.

[kirchzep27]

Cool info everyone. After watching some of that arizona show above, its got me remembering those shows. I had that arizona show on vhs tape and a show from upstate ny. That arizona show has that raw audio, which is a strange but interesting listen and pro footage. I always watched the upstate ny show much more, because it was fan footage, with sound from the room, air and audience. Even though its a solitary angle, it is like seeimg a show and reminded me much more of the show that i saw. Page said the same things in between songs...how about the intro to sth, where he says, "sing along, air guitar along, do whatever you like." What great, paced out shows they were. Hearing custard pie live, was soo good...it sounded so good, i am still baffled that zep never played that live.

Another thing, page seemingly was having a great time playing. He was back to 75 form to my ears. I wonder why he didnt make a follow up to outrider, with that band....after a great tour like that. If geffen records wasnt happy with the sales...why not put the coverdale,page effort into the outrider band. The singer has more of a bon scott tone imo, which was good...it wasnt like too close to plant (nobody sounds like plant anyway) and it had integrity. I thought that band was really good to showcase page and his work over time. Went off topic....back to the danelectro.

[IpMan]

I was at that Arizona show at Mesa Amphitheatre with my older brother. That vid really brought back some great memories as well as a tear as my brother passed in 95'.

Anyway, I remember commenting on the two Dano's and wondering if Jimmy used two with the same pick guard design in 77' since he played both songs on that tour as well. Or did Jimmy's tech just re-tune the same guitar between songs? Either way I am no fan of the Dano's, they fall out of tune way too easy and do sound thin and twangy to my ears as well. The LP vs. the Dano on Kashmir is no contest, the LP blows it away (go figure, a $4,000 guitar vs. a $299 Sears special). The J-200 on WS/BMS vs. the Dano, well this is just silly now. The Gibson hollow body vs. the Dano on IMTOD is a huge improvement on tone.

With all this taken into consideration, the question must be asked why Page used the Dano for anything live? IMO it's just a shitty, cheap novelty guitar from a bygone era.

[Dr Death]

With all this taken into consideration, the question must be asked why Page used the Dano for anything live? IMO it's just a shitty, cheap novelty guitar from a bygone era.

One thing that I learned about Jimmy in 1998 on the Page/Plant tour, is that he LOVES going to guitar shops and searching for obscure or different guitars. How did I learn this? Because he walked into the store where I was teaching at. Of course, I was down at the hotel... LOL But Steve, this guy who worked there, told me all about it. Said Jimmy kept playing this rather pathetic looking guitar but that he was making it sound decent and he asked, a couple of times, if they had anything in the back of the store.

He loves guitars and at least he used to search high and low for something different. I imagine that's what happened with the Danelectro. Just a guess, but a pretty good educated one based on what I know of him.

[Disco Duck]

With all this taken into consideration, the question must be asked why Page used the Dano for anything live? IMO it's just a shitty, cheap novelty guitar from a bygone era.

Maybe cheap and shitty is what you need for certain sound effects?

[woz70]

With all this taken into consideration, the question must be asked why Page used the Dano for anything live? IMO it's just a shitty, cheap novelty guitar from a bygone era.

....which has been re-released and sells pretty well nowadays as a bass, a 12 string and a baritone, as well as the standard 6 string. The sounds they produce aren't for everyone, but they are distinctive and the trebly tone can really cut through a dense mix, for example. I think it sits perfectly in the mix of the album version of Kashmir, where a LP would probably have been too dense and thick to balance well with the strings and brass that are going on.

Page has also had the tuning issues addressed somewhat by replacing the original nasty wooden bridge with a solid metal badass bridge.

[Sathington Willoughby]

Maybe Syd Barrett inspired him to get a Danelectro? I mean he also had the mirrored Tele, clearly a nod to Syd's Esquire.

[Disco Duck]

...Another thing, page seemingly was having a great time playing. He was back to 75 form to my ears. I wonder why he didnt make a follow up to outrider, with that band....after a great tour like that. If geffen records wasnt happy with the sales...why not put the coverdale,page effort into the outrider band. The singer has more of a bon scott tone imo, which was good...it wasnt like too close to plant (nobody sounds like plant anyway) and it had integrity. I thought that band was really good to showcase page and his work over time. Went off topic....back to the danelectro...

IIRC, the Outrider album received mediocre (at best) reviews. I went back and listened to the entire album the other day. The mediocre reviews were fair, imo. However, Rome wasn't built in a day and this was Page's first solo album. I can't help but wonder if he would have come up with fresher, more focused music if he had just kept at it.

[Dr Death]

What make of guitar is shown in this photo of Peter Grant?

It's difficult to say for sure, since the guitar is far away and you can't read the headstock, but that is a Fender Stratocaster, sunburst in colour.

Edit: Like this one -

[Cofa]

I was at the O2 show and the ES 350 Jimmy used on IMTOD sounded absolutely awesome! It was one of the stand out highlights for me.

[IpMan]

....which has been re-released and sells pretty well nowadays as a bass, a 12 string and a baritone, as well as the standard 6 string. The sounds they produce aren't for everyone, but they are distinctive and the trebly tone can really cut through a dense mix, for example. I think it sits perfectly in the mix of the album version of Kashmir, where a LP would probably have been too dense and thick to balance well with the strings and brass that are going on.

Page has also had the tuning issues addressed somewhat by replacing the original nasty wooden bridge with a solid metal badass bridge.

Yes, excellent points by everyone here. BTW, do we know for sure if he used the Dano to record the guitar parts for Kashmir or IMTOD studio versions?

[sixpense]

Actually the body is made from Masonite, which is a form of hardboard made from compressed wood and paper fibres. So technically it is wood... but only just.

I own three of the 59-dc model and they sure don't feel like masonite. (I'm not doubting your answer) The are extremely light and have a very unique sound. I believe even the necks are not solid but hollow. (A trend which Billy Gibbons has been doing to all his custom guitars)