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mknopfler

09/29/1971 Osaka - Stairway To Heaven - EVSD SBD Single

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The big problem with a private auction is that is a great way to get nabbed.  I remember reading about someone trying to sell a tape and the mystery buyer was Jason Bonham along with the authorities.  I would think auctions would be very risky for the seller.  Never understood why they have not taken pre orders for a longer time for a big show.  I can only guess that once the dics go out for pressing they would worry about a leak though the manufacturer but they certainly could hype it before pressing the dics. 

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Some may say it's not about the money, but when it isn't it's all about the money!

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13 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

I'm sorry but this is just specious.  Seattle was released as a complete show, the samplers to prime the pump have nothing to do with that.  Neither does mixing incomplete soundboards with audience sources.  There is absolutely no reason to believe they have the complete boards of the shows you listed, and there is absolutely no reason to believe they have the complete 9-29 show.

The private auction theory is speculation, but it's the only way I can see how bootleg companies can make money these days, since the shows will be uploaded almost immediately upon release for sale to the general public, as Osaka was.  None of other explanations I've seen here make sense, so it's simply a question of eliminating the least plausible alternatives.

Actually, all of your post is speculation, isn't it?  You may have thought that the Seattle sampler was to "prime the pump", but when that sampler was first announced, there were plenty of people saying "They probably don't have the whole show".  It's no different now, and it's always the same thing: "The well is dry", "It's the bottom of the barrel", "They would never just hold on to a soundboard", "They only have from XXX date to XXX date".  Always the same speculation, and almost always wrong. 

The truth is that nobody knows where the sources come from, nobody knows how much money EV really makes on these, or what their release strategy is. They released samplers for Osaka, and once again people said "They probably don't have the whole show".  Then after Stairway and Friends got released, it shifted to "I have it on good authority that EV will be releasing Whole Lotta Love soon....". That never happened, but then they released more of the show, and now it's "See, I knew they didn't have the whole show".  It's too much.

The only consistent/known facts here are that pretty much nobody knows what they are talking about.  What I mentioned about the alt audience sources for things like 9/4/71 and 6/26/77 are facts.  Those shows have alt sources that EV selectively used to augment the common sources for those gigs. They have also done the same thing with the soundboard for Montreux 1970 and the first night in Osaka 1971. And they were the sole holder of the TMOQ Blueberry Hill tape, and at least another three dozen upgraded audience and video sources. Zeppelin isn't the only band they release upgrades for, either. They dumped an entire Box set of Cream soundboard upgrades a few years ago. They have been doing this a very long time, and have delivered over and over and over. 

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17 minutes ago, The Only Way To Fly said:

I'm curious about what kind of money we're talking about. How much could one expect; for example,  of a cassette tape of a Blueberry Hill quality audience recording of Iceland 1970 or a soundboard of the two shows in Copenhagen from 1979? 

FYI, you're responding to something zepster1970 wrote, not me (you picked up a quote that I quoted).

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9 minutes ago, TM said:

The big problem with a private auction is that is a great way to get nabbed.  I remember reading about someone trying to sell a tape and the mystery buyer was Jason Bonham along with the authorities.  I would think auctions would be very risky for the seller.  Never understood why they have not taken pre orders for a longer time for a big show.  I can only guess that once the dics go out for pressing they would worry about a leak though the manufacturer but they certainly could hype it before pressing the dics. 

Good point, but this is a risky business, they're bootlegs after all (which is why complaints about EV's "proprietary rights", which have been raised elsewhere here, are just completely confused).  Nothing is truly anonymous online these days, so even a mass product is not completely safe if Zep's attorneys really wanted to get involved.

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5 minutes ago, pluribus said:

Actually, all of your post is speculation, isn't it?  You may have thought that the Seattle sampler was to "prime the pump", but when that sampler was first announced, there were plenty of people saying "They probably don't have the whole show".  It's no different now, and it's always the same thing: "The well is dry", "It's the bottom of the barrel", "They would never just hold on to a soundboard", "They only have from XXX date to XXX date".  Always the same speculation, and almost always wrong. 

The truth is that nobody knows where the sources come from, nobody knows how much money EV really makes on these, or what their release strategy is. They released samplers for Osaka, and once again people said "They probably don't have the whole show".  Then after Stairway and Friends got released, it shifted to "I have it on good authority that EV will be releasing Whole Lotta Love soon....". That never happened, but then they released more of the show, and now it's "See, I knew they didn't have the whole show".  It's too much.

The only consistent/known facts here are that pretty much nobody knows what they are talking about.  What I mentioned about the alt audience sources for things like 9/4/71 and 6/26/77 are facts.  Those shows have alt sources that EV selectively used to augment the common sources for those gigs. They have also done the same thing with the soundboard for Montreux 1970 and the first night in Osaka 1971. And they were the sole holder of the TMOQ Blueberry Hill tape, and at least another three dozen upgraded audience and video sources. Zeppelin isn't the only band they release upgrades for, either. They dumped an entire Box set of Cream soundboard upgrades a few years ago. They have been doing this a very long time, and have delivered over and over and over. 

Sure, it's speculation (everything here is), but it's informed speculation.  Or rather, it fits best with the observed facts.  Anyone who thought Seattle would be incomplete was proved wrong, and at any rate there was no justification for making such a claim at the time (i.e. it was uninformed speculation).  None of these bootlegs (in the "Revolution" series) has been released in partial form, only to be completed later.  True enough, teasers/singles appear to be a new marketing feature, and that started with Seattle.  But that reflects the changing business environment and there is no reason to think it presages a new approach where shows are released piecemeal.  I was surprised (and disappointed) when it was revealed that 9-29 was incomplete, but that led me to believe that the source of this show (and the 9-28 Black Dog) is different from the '75-'77 shows.  If the next '75 board (they have at least three left, maybe six if you count the Forum shows) plays out this way, I'll change my mind, but until then I'm going with the evidence. 

And not really sure who you refer to in your anecdotes here, but re. the "from XXX date to XXX date" part, I have yet see this one proven wrong as far as the '75 boards go.

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I should add, the contiguous date theory hasn't been invalidated for the '77 boards, either.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Sticks of Fire said:

Someone should add the acoustic set from the multitrack recording to the soundboard set.    The acoustic set sounds pretty darn good on the multitrack and would fill out the soundboard source for a more complete feel of the show. 

A 3 source mix is on dime, possibly other trading sites. It isn't complete though as Dazed has a cut in the coda section and Moby Dick is all chopped up. I fixed it for my personal enjoyment. Not that much work really. Took me 2 hours and I'm no recording engineer or even very skilled at sound editing. Not that hard to do, but it's a little time consuming.

In other words, Empress Valley could have easily merged sources and for $300 put out the most complete representation possible.  I hope that their $300 5 CD ripoff sells like hot cake. 😆

Edited by porgie66

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39 minutes ago, porgie66 said:

A 3 source mix is on dime, possibly other trading sites. It isn't complete though as Dazed has a cut in the coda section and Moby Dick is all chopped up. I fixed it for my personal enjoyment. Not that much work really. Took me 2 hours and I'm no recording engineer or even very skilled at sound editing. Not that hard to do, but it's a little time consuming.

In other words, Empress Valley could have easily merged sources and for $300 put out the most complete representation possible.  I hope that their $300 5 CD ripoff sells like hot cake. 😆

Good post, Porgie...and a positive one (what a relief!)

Compiling a kind of matrix is a real challenge, considering the slight speed variations between the old 'multitrack dub' and the mono SB, but once finished it should turn out very enjoyable with all the chatter and hall ambience installed (in yummy stereo)

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, duckman said:

Good post, Porgie...and a positive one (what a relief!)

Compiling a kind of matrix is a real challenge, considering the slight speed variations between the old 'multitrack dub' and the mono SB, but once finished it should turn out very enjoyable with all the chatter and hall ambience installed (in yummy stereo)

Thank you. I was actually referring to a merge, not an actual matrix, but that would really be awesome. The old multi track is quite slower , by maybe near 2% , but someone who is adept at it can blend the two (Winston, Sue Dounim), and I'm sure the results would be great. 

 

10 minutes ago, duckman said:

 

 

Edited by porgie66

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Posted (edited)

I have visited Empress Valley a couple of times in Japan and I support them buying all new boxes they put out. Obviously they ARE making money but its their (fulltime) job and they do an EXCELLENT job. The packaging is always top notch and no other label is able to treat the market with unreleased LZ soundboards. Why fellow collectors willing to stop this all by uploading and repress their recordings in the same week it got released is just beyond me. I just don't get it. Why not wait a couple of months. I told the owner they might should consider doing preorders to a new soundboards. Preorders up to a certain amount and not let go before this is reached. It wouldn't surprise me if it eventually comes to this.

 

 

Edited by A.A.

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2 hours ago, A.A. said:

I have visited Empress Valley a couple of times in Japan and I support them buying all new boxes they put out. Obviously they ARE making money but its their (fulltime) job and they do an EXCELLENT job. The packaging is always top notch and no other label is able to treat the market with unreleased LZ soundboards. Why fellow collectors willing to stop this all by uploading and repress their recordings in the same week it got released is just beyond me. I just don't get it. Why not wait a couple of months. I told the owner they might should consider doing preorders to a new soundboards. Preorders up to a certain amount and not let go before this is reached. It wouldn't surprise me if it eventually comes to this.

 

 

Not a bad idea, especially if it's a "soundboard revolution " tape, or one that they have exclusive dibbys on. The problem is....they didn't do a great job on this release. Your suggestion is much more sensible than trickling out a song at a time, then an incomplete release and charging way too much for them.  A good job would be to either put the whole tape they have into one release, or splice other sources to complete the show. They've done a good job in the past...not with this release. I'm grateful for the release but don't agree with how they did it. There are many who feel the same, and some who are adamantly in opposition to this sentiment. 

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11 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

And not really sure who you refer to in your anecdotes here, but re. the "from XXX date to XXX date" part, I have yet see this one proven wrong as far as the '75 boards go.

What have you seen to prove it “right”? All of these guesses about “changes in business environments”, and “they have this board, but not that board”, are just guesses. And we have a legion of armchair quarterbacks who adjust their theories with each new surprise.

Case in point, prior to 2016, the “latest” 1975 board was Snowblind 3/20, and the “earliest” board was still Flying Circus 2/12.  Cue the “that’s all they have” and it’s “the bottom of the barrel” comments. Yet in 2016 EV released Landover 2/10 and then Seattle 3/21 in 2017. Now it’s “Okay, now THAT’S all they have”. Totally silly. There is no pattern and there is no logic that anyone can pick out to prove that EV don’t also have many more 1975 boards to release. Seriously, they’ve put out fifteen(!) soundboards from the 1975 US tour. And yet somehow that sheer quantity of boards still doesn’t point to an obvious conclusion for some.

For 1975, the current date range is 2/10 to 3/21. There is nothing to suggest that EV won’t eventually fill in the remaining gaps and extend that range to 2/8 and 3/24, or 2/7 and 3/25, or 2/6 and 3/27. They haven’t gone a single year since 2002 without releasing a soundboard release from either 1975 or 1977. 

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1 minute ago, pluribus said:

What have you seen to prove it “right”? All of these guesses about “changes in business environments”, and “they have this board, but not that board”, are just guesses. And we have a legion of armchair quarterbacks who adjust their theories with each new surprise.

Case in point, prior to 2016, the “latest” 1975 board was Snowblind 3/20, and the “earliest” board was still Flying Circus 2/12.  Cue the “that’s all they have” and it’s “the bottom of the barrel” comments. Yet in 2016 EV released Landover 2/10 and then Seattle 3/21 in 2017. Now it’s “Okay, now THAT’S all they have”. Totally silly. There is no pattern and there is no logic that anyone can pick out to prove that EV don’t also have many more 1975 boards to release. Seriously, they’ve put out fifteen(!) soundboards from the 1975 US tour. And yet somehow that sheer quantity of boards still doesn’t point to an obvious conclusion for some.

For 1975, the current date range is 2/10 to 3/21. There is nothing to suggest that EV won’t eventually fill in the remaining gaps and extend that range to 2/8 and 3/24, or 2/7 and 3/25, or 2/6 and 3/27. They haven’t gone a single year since 2002 without releasing a soundboard release from either 1975 or 1977. 

👍🏼

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1 hour ago, pluribus said:

For 1975, the current date range is 2/10 to 3/21. There is nothing to suggest that EV won’t eventually fill in the remaining gaps and extend that range to 2/8 and 3/24, or 2/7 and 3/25, or 2/6 and 3/27. They haven’t gone a single year since 2002 without releasing a soundboard release from either 1975 or 1977

Looks like that streak may end this year.  

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, TM said:

Looks like that streak may end this year.  

2018 has been all about the Osaka show. Immigrant Song, Stairway To Heaven, Friends, and now How The East Was Won. 

And to be fair, what I should have said was that EV have released an unheard soundboard every year since 2002. Most years have been at least a show  from 1975, some have had a combination of 1975 and 1977 or just 1977, and some years have also had additional shows from either 1971 (Orlando, Osaka 9/28), 1970 (Montreux), or 1973 (Kezar, Salt Lake, San Diego), in addition to the 1975 (SB revolution), or 1977 (Dragon Snake, Magical Sound Boogie, Landover, Texas Hurricane) releases.

Edited by pluribus

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8 hours ago, pluribus said:

What have you seen to prove it “right”? All of these guesses about “changes in business environments”, and “they have this board, but not that board”, are just guesses. And we have a legion of armchair quarterbacks who adjust their theories with each new surprise.

Case in point, prior to 2016, the “latest” 1975 board was Snowblind 3/20, and the “earliest” board was still Flying Circus 2/12.  Cue the “that’s all they have” and it’s “the bottom of the barrel” comments. Yet in 2016 EV released Landover 2/10 and then Seattle 3/21 in 2017. Now it’s “Okay, now THAT’S all they have”. Totally silly. There is no pattern and there is no logic that anyone can pick out to prove that EV don’t also have many more 1975 boards to release. Seriously, they’ve put out fifteen(!) soundboards from the 1975 US tour. And yet somehow that sheer quantity of boards still doesn’t point to an obvious conclusion for some.

For 1975, the current date range is 2/10 to 3/21. There is nothing to suggest that EV won’t eventually fill in the remaining gaps and extend that range to 2/8 and 3/24, or 2/7 and 3/25, or 2/6 and 3/27. They haven’t gone a single year since 2002 without releasing a soundboard release from either 1975 or 1977. 

I have no idea who you are referring to with your anecdotes ("bottom of the barrel", etc.), but it is certainly not me.  I have made clear here, several times, my explanation for the pattern of the '75 and '77 SB releases, which you are welcome to comment on if you like (instead of tossing in your favorite [perhaps made-up] anecdotes).  With some very mild assumptions about EV's choices for particular releases, it is simply statistically improbable, after 15 years, that they have anything from Jan 75 or Pontiac or Forum '77 shows. We would have seen them by now.  The idea that the "Revolution" tapes are coming from a contiguous block of shows (suggesting whoever supplied them grabbed a bunch of tapes aligned in chronological order, but not the entire tours) not only fits the data best, it is falsifialbe.  I had assumed that if they had 3-21, they would have saved the best for last.  Now it is reasonable to suspect that they have the LA '75 shows as well.  But they definitely have 3-10, 3-12, and 2-27, as I have always said here.  Perhaps Philly (2-8) as well.  But I've never said Seattle was the last of the bunch, maybe you can provide a link to who actually did say this?

Again, very highly doubtful they have any January '75 shows, or anything from April '77.  This Osaka show probably has something to do with the 50th anniversary, unless you want to believe in coincidences.  You can say we simply don't know what they have or don't have, but to me this is on par with saying we don't really know is Bigfoot exists or not.  Maybe we don't, but the evidence is clear enough.  And we can make sufficiently informed speculation at this stage.
 

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35 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

I have no idea who you are referring to with your anecdotes ("bottom of the barrel", etc.), but it is certainly not me.  I have made clear here, several times, my explanation for the pattern of the '75 and '77 SB releases, which you are welcome to comment on if you like (instead of tossing in your favorite [perhaps made-up] anecdotes).  With some very mild assumptions about EV's choices for particular releases, it is simply statistically improbable, after 15 years, that they have anything from Jan 75 or Pontiac or Forum '77 shows. We would have seen them by now.  The idea that the "Revolution" tapes are coming from a contiguous block of shows (suggesting whoever supplied them grabbed a bunch of tapes aligned in chronological order, but not the entire tours) not only fits the data best, it is falsifialbe.  I had assumed that if they had 3-21, they would have saved the best for last.  Now it is reasonable to suspect that they have the LA '75 shows as well.  But they definitely have 3-10, 3-12, and 2-27, as I have always said here.  Perhaps Philly (2-8) as well.  But I've never said Seattle was the last of the bunch, maybe you can provide a link to who actually did say this?

Again, very highly doubtful they have any January '75 shows, or anything from April '77.  This Osaka show probably has something to do with the 50th anniversary, unless you want to believe in coincidences.  You can say we simply don't know what they have or don't have, but to me this is on par with saying we don't really know is Bigfoot exists or not.  Maybe we don't, but the evidence is clear enough.  And we can make sufficiently informed speculation at this stage.
 

In other words: you have no idea. All of this talk about "statistically improbable" and "falsifiable", is just wild guessing posturing as facts.  I encourage you to line up the 75 boards, and the 77 boards, with their release dates and explain the "pattern". (Hint: there isn't one).

My comment about people who say things like "EV have hit the bottom of the barrel" or "the well has run dry", applies to the almost constant stream of new "experts" that pop up, every year, on the boards and mailing lists.  It's usually the same types who use phrases like "EV definitely have _____" and "EV definitely don't have_____".  Nobody knows what EV have, and what they don't have. Yet everyone likes to pretend that they've got it all figured out.  

So now it's: Someone must have grabbed a bunch of 1975 tapes aligned in chronological order....

 

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11 minutes ago, pluribus said:

In other words: you have no idea. All of this talk about "statistically improbable" and "falsifiable", is just wild guessing posturing as facts.  I encourage you to line up the 75 boards, and the 77 boards, with their release dates and explain the "pattern". (Hint: there isn't one).

My comment about people who say things like "EV have hit the bottom of the barrel" or "the well has run dry", applies to the almost constant stream of new "experts" that pop up, every year, on the boards and mailing lists.  It's usually the same types who use phrases like "EV definitely have _____" and "EV definitely don't have_____".  Nobody knows what EV have, and what they don't have. Yet everyone likes to pretend that they've got it all figured out.  

So now it's: Someone must have grabbed a bunch of 1975 tapes aligned in chronological order....

 

I’ve said it before, maybe Steve A Jones can help.   If I’m remembering right there is a quote in the Peter Grant book where he mentions a block of 1975 board tapes that were never given to the band by ShowCo from the 1975 tour.    I believe the quote said something like “...heads should have rolled...”

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It’s hard to believe that the guy(s) who sat there every night for various tour recording bands like Zeppelin and others has not come forward and talked about the good old days.   The experiences must have been amazing. 

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26 minutes ago, pluribus said:

In other words: you have no idea. All of this talk about "statistically improbable" and "falsifiable", is just wild guessing posturing as facts.  I encourage you to line up the 75 boards, and the 77 boards, with their release dates and explain the "pattern". (Hint: there isn't one).

My comment about people who say things like "EV have hit the bottom of the barrel" or "the well has run dry", applies to the almost constant stream of new "experts" that pop up, every year, on the boards and mailing lists.  It's usually the same types who use phrases like "EV definitely have _____" and "EV definitely don't have_____".  Nobody knows what EV have, and what they don't have. Yet everyone likes to pretend that they've got it all figured out.  

So now it's: Someone must have grabbed a bunch of 1975 tapes aligned in chronological order....

 

You are simply dishonest.  What do the release dates of the soundboards have to do with anything?  It obviously has nothing to do with what I'm talking about it.  And it's clear you are just making up these anecdotes since you provide no evidential support.  Just stick with your Bigfoot theory (he's gotta be out there, right?  can't prove otherwise).  The dreamers who are sure the Pontiac '77 board is out there will be reassured, but those of us in the real world don't care.

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16 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

You are simply dishonest.  What do the release dates of the soundboards have to do with anything?  It obviously has nothing to do with what I'm talking about it.  And it's clear you are just making up these anecdotes since you provide no evidential support.  Just stick with your Bigfoot theory (he's gotta be out there, right?  can't prove otherwise).  The dreamers who are sure the Pontiac '77 board is out there will be reassured, but those of us in the real world don't care.

Easy there, tiger. Don't be insulted because your theory has no basis in reality. Regarding my pointing out the constant comments from "experts", you could go on any number of Zeppelin boards (including this one) and spot all of those very comments through the years, just like I've posted.  Searching is your friend.

So, all we need now is your theory. Come on, let's hear it. What's this pattern in the Empress Valley soundboards?

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1 minute ago, pluribus said:

Easy there, tiger. Don't be insulted because your theory has no basis in reality. Regarding my pointing out the constant comments from "experts", you could go on any number of Zeppelin boards (including this one) and spot all of those very comments through the years, just like I've posted.  Searching is your friend.

So, all we need now is your theory. Come on, let's hear it. What's this pattern in the Empress Valley soundboards?

I have already provided it, a few posts up tonight and in previous debates with you here over the last two years or so.  The fact that you choose to not honestly confront it, instead offering up distractions and irrelevancy, points to your dishonesty (assuming you've actually understood what is being explained to you, it's clear enough you don't understand statistical reasoning but you should at least make an effort).

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44 minutes ago, Sticks of Fire said:

I’ve said it before, maybe Steve A Jones can help.   If I’m remembering right there is a quote in the Peter Grant book where he mentions a block of 1975 board tapes that were never given to the band by ShowCo from the 1975 tour.    I believe the quote said something like “...heads should have rolled...”

The quote in Welch's book is in reference to the 1977 tour:

"Jonesy was doing incredible versions of "No Quarter" at this time. I wasn't surprised there were a lot of bootleg albums from that tour because one night Benji LeFevre lost some of our sound desk tapes. I never did bollock him for it; I just put it down as one of those things."

Grant died in 1995. During his lifetime, the only soundboards besides BBC and Osaka to have hit the bootleg market were "Trampled Underfoot" (Dallas 75), and "Destroyer" (Cleveland 1977) both in the late 1980s. And we now know that "Destroyer" wasn't sourced from a Showco tape at all.  So, Grant's comments make no sense. The 1973 and 1980 soundboards hadn't really circulated to bootlegs by the time Grant passed away.  The only "lot of bootleg albums" that Grant would've known about from the 1973-1977 tours would've been audience recordings.

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10 minutes ago, pluribus said:

The quote in Welch's book is in reference to the 1977 tour:

"Jonesy was doing incredible versions of "No Quarter" at this time. I wasn't surprised there were a lot of bootleg albums from that tour because one night Benji LeFevre lost some of our sound desk tapes. I never did bollock him for it; I just put it down as one of those things."

Grant died in 1995. During his lifetime, the only soundboards besides BBC and Osaka to have hit the bootleg market were "Trampled Underfoot" (Dallas 75), and "Destroyer" (Cleveland 1977) both in the late 1980s. And we now know that "Destroyer" wasn't sourced from a Showco tape at all.  So, Grant's comments make no sense. The 1973 and 1980 soundboards hadn't really circulated to bootlegs by the time Grant passed away.  The only "lot of bootleg albums" that Grant would've known about from the 1973-1977 tours would've been audience recordings.

Thank you, this is why people probably think only certain dates exist from the 1977 board rather than a source with a few shows or the opposite, a source with every show. 

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