woz70 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If that were the case, then every band from that era would've had that riff on their records too. Also, you're forgetting that the notes are only one half of the equation. The other half is the way in which the notes are being played. The rhythm/syncopation. This is what removes it from being a common musical motif, even if the sequence of notes used are not unique. Considering how much Page lifted from others only makes these things more obvious. Cue Occam's razor... If you move back a step and consider the riff as just a lick, or a phrase then you can find it all over the place in music of that era. Just a couple of examples, some of which could have been reference for the Zep boys and for Hendrix: The Doors: Love Me Two Times (intro) T-Bone Walker: Steppin' Out Etta James: I Just Wanna Make Love to you John Lee Hooker: I'm Bad Like Jesse James Allman Brothers: Statesboro Blues These are just off the top of my head - it's all over the place, especially 50's & 60's blues, and the more you listen the more you'll hear it. Don't forget that those Blues records were a point of common reference for Jimmy & Robert at the beginning of Zep. As I said earlier - it's taking that lick, being brave enough to say 'I'm going to base an entire song around this 5 note phrase', that people have been playing on the guitar since at least the beginning of the blues, and doing something so striking and individual with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasbo Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If that were the case, then every band from that era would've had that riff on their records too. Also, you're forgetting that the notes are only one half of the equation. The other half is the way in which the notes are being played. The rhythm/syncopation. This is what removes it from being a common musical motif, even if the sequence of notes used are not unique. Considering how much Page lifted from others only makes these things more obvious. Cue Occam's razor... Its also the players sound and style.If Hendrix were to play WLL it would sound different to Page.That's what i like about 70s rock is that you could immediately tell who a guitar player was because of their style and tone.Blackmore,Iommi,Howe,etc were all distinctive.Anyway there is only so many notes to play with and trying to come up with something entirely original is almost impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 The Doors: Love Me Two Times (intro) T-Bone Walker: Steppin' Out Etta James: I Just Wanna Make Love to you John Lee Hooker: I'm Bad Like Jesse James Allman Brothers: Statesboro Blues The difference between Whole Lotta Love, Hey Joe and the list of songs that you've posted above is that Whole Lotta Love and Hey Joe have the exact same motif, played the exact same way. None of the songs above have that same riff/motif. Even where it's nearly there, same sequence of notes, like the Hooker reference, there is still a difference in the rhythm/syncopation that both Hey Joe and Whole Lotta Love share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Its also the players sound and style.If Hendrix were to play WLL it would sound different to Page. But there you would look at who released what first. Hendrix released Hey Joe 2 years before Zepp released Whole Lotta Love. Hendrix had a specific feel to that lick in Hey Joe and Page used not just the same lick, but also the same feel in Whole Lotta Love. Page just extended the lick out via repetition. We already know what Hendrix would've sounded like playing Whole Lotta Love, because he already did the same riff, with the same feel in Hey Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 The difference between Whole Lotta Love, Hey Joe and the list of songs that you've posted above is that Whole Lotta Love and Hey Joe have the exact same motif, played the exact same way. None of the songs above have that same riff/motif. Even where it's nearly there, same sequence of notes, like the Hooker reference, there is still a difference in the rhythm/syncopation that both Hey Joe and Whole Lotta Love share. The motif is the same - the rhythm changes. In musical terms (at least from an analysis point of view) a motif is a set of notes, it doesn't matter what the rhythm is. Adding syncopation, or swing doesn't change the motif, but it does change the feel. Hey Joe has quite a swing to it, and Hendrix used the phrase to add harmonic interest to the E chord he ends on - something that is inherent in his style of playing. You can also be pretty sure that he's referenced that from his earlier listening and performing experiences. That's what musicians do - they hear a lick or a riff that turns them on and incorporate that into their playing. Literally everyone does it - that's how you end up with a style all your own, by taking all the little tiny tricks & licks you've learnt and picked up from elsewhere, sticking them into the food blender that is a musicians brain, and gluing them back together in a way that suits you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 That's what musicians do - they hear a lick or a riff that turns them on and incorporate that into their playing. That's the slippery slope that always gets used in his defense though, isn't it? Up there with claims that there are only so many notes available or that everyone steals from each other. Again, see Page's numerous other lifts (alleged or otherwise confirmed). He has been sued multiple times for having his hand in the cookie jar, and he's had to pay for it on some pretty big ones. For stuff like the lifts from Jansch and Graham you see a pattern of a repeat offender that was there from the beginning of his career. He didn't just do it a little bit, he did it a lot. So, while the argument of people being influenced by each other might normally apply, and similarities maybe coming down to being coincidences, with Page it's a totally different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 That's the slippery slope that always gets used in his defense though, isn't it? Up there with claims that there are only so many notes available or that everyone steals from each other. Again, see Page's numerous other lifts (alleged or otherwise confirmed). He has been sued multiple times for having his hand in the cookie jar, and he's had to pay for it on some pretty big ones. For stuff like the lifts from Jansch and Graham you see a pattern of a repeat offender that was there from the beginning of his career. He didn't just do it a little bit, he did it a lot. So, while the argument of people being influenced by each other might normally apply, and similarities maybe coming down to being coincidences, with Page it's a totally different story. I'm not defending anyone here - I'm approaching this from an analysis of music point of view (I have a music degree and I covered a lot of analysis of music - that bit was boring). But frankly in music based on pentatonic tonality you've only got 5 notes to choose from and some of those notes sound better in certain places than others so you can't even be too loose with what comes where. But that's the whole beauty of the Blues as a form..... it's what you do within those limitations. Also it's the genre's downfall because eventually everything starts to sound like everything else. Page did lift a lot (Robert even more so - WLL vocally is a total lift from the Small Faces 'you need loving' and I think that's a worse sin in the grand scheme of things), but you do have to give some leeway. Even if he did consciously and deliberately take that phrase from 'Hey Joe' (which from Hendrix' point of view was just a bit of rhythmic filligree, a way to turn around and get back to the verse - not even a major part of the song) he did something with it Hendrix never, ever did. I think (and this has happened to me too in music I've written) he played it, thought 'man, that's cool', wrote the song and THEN someone pointed out 'hey, that sounds a bit like the turnaround in Hey Joe', at which point you get a facepalm moment. I mean - Eddie Kramer was the engineer on WLL....... Edited to add: It was apparently Tim Rose's version that turned Hendrix on to the song, and it's got a partial version of the turnaround Jimi used too... so Hendrix nicked it too! And..... we all know who got a job playing drums for Tim Rose...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasbo Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I will digress for a moment. There was a band down here in Oz in the early 70s called Daddy Cool who had a hit called Eagle Rock which had a basic but different riff motif over fairly standard twelve bar blues with a few twists.Guitarist,writer and leader of the band Ross Wilson said when he came up with the riff said 'surely this has been done before'(his words).To the best of my knowledge it hasn't.Despite the song being totally annoying,IMO,it is that golden moment when you hit the jackpot.Go to any barbecue where there is beer swilling blokes and a stereo blaring and they will be singing out that riff . Then you have Men at Work with their huge hit Downunder,a carefree happy number with a lovely flute motif/riff.They got sued because three or four notes sounded like an old Austrlian folk tune which some record company owned the rights to. They won and there were tragic events in its wake. Yes I love the debate of does this riff sound like this or that, but there is some lecherous barstards out there who will sue on the strength of two notes.Look what's happening with Stairway and poor old Randy California is in his grave.Sorry,just my two cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 It was apparently Tim Rose's version that turned Hendrix on to the song, and it's got a partial version of the turnaround Jimi used too... so Hendrix nicked it too! And..... we all know who got a job playing drums for Tim Rose...... Good post. But, again, notice that Tim Rose's version of the lick in question isn't the same as what Hendrix did with it (as you point out). Whereas, Page's Whole Lotta Love riff uses the entirety of Hendrix's lick and just extends it. This is a similar situation as Black Mountainside, where Page claims that the song was "traditional", when in fact the version that Page plays on Zep I is not just a cover of a traditional song, but rather an uncredited copy of Bert Jansch's arrangement of the traditional song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I know I am musically ignorarant and cannot pick apart and notate a chord or musical phrase to the extent of pluribus and some of the rest of you, BUT... When I listen to "Hey Joe" I never think of "Whole Lotta Love" and vice versa. Those songs, to me, are so different in their approach and feel, that even if you show me the riffs are the exact same notes in the same sequence it doesn't matter because the way the songs 'sound' affects the listener differently. Whereas Pearl Jam's "Given to Fly" immediately reminds me of Zeppelin's "Going to California", or ZZ Top's "La Grange" exactly recalls Slim Harpo's "Hip-Shake", and any number of Rolling Stones songs call forth Chuck Berry, listening to Jimi Hendrix never makes me think of Led Zeppelin, whether it is "Hey Joe" or "All Along the Watchtower" (nope, "Stairway" never enters my mind). I do, however, hear the Bert Jansch and Davy Graham rips, in "White Summer" and "Black Mountain Side". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Good post. But, again, notice that Tim Rose's version of the lick in question isn't the same as what Hendrix did with it (as you point out). Whereas, Page's Whole Lotta Love riff uses the entirety of Hendrix's lick and just extends it. This is a similar situation as Black Mountainside, where Page claims that the song was "traditional", when in fact the version that Page plays on Zep I is not just a cover of a traditional song, but rather an uncredited copy of Bert Jansch's arrangement of the traditional song. Yup - can't argue with the fact that the Jansch stuff (and a lot of Davey Graham too) was just blatant stealing. The thing there is he didn't even bother making any thematic changes, which is definitely naughty. Although he'll no doubt quote the aural/oral tradition and say he borrowed it just the same as Jansch/Graham..... What I was trying to show with the Tim Rose example was how the seed of something like a lick or a riff can evolve. You'd have to look at the sort of music Tim Rose was into, and what influenced and informed his playing, and I'll bet you'd find somebody in that lot who played a swung version of those three notes like he did. Being a guitarist (or any musician who makes stuff up) is all about picking up little snippets of things you like and stealing them for your own use (whether you're even aware that you're doing it or not) - that's how popular music has always worked - especially through the Folk and Blues traditions. This sort of music was rarely, if ever, written down and was generally passed on aurally - you're either taught or listen and copy as best you can. I've shown how the seeds of the riff can be found in music of the era (and before, and since). Hendrix listened to, and liked, the Tim Rose version (which was light years away from the million other versions of Hey Joe that appeared between '62 & '66) and played it his way. But although he played B - D - B - D - E in Hey Joe, he always let that E chord at the end just ring out - he didn't ever give it the extended rhythmic chug that Page did for WLL. And that, in my opinion, makes it original, or at least different enough to say it's something new. Page went on to steal that phrase again - the intro to NFBM, same notes; Black Dog, the same notes (in a different key, and with an added note); Bring It On Home even has a nod to it; Immigrant Song and The Wanton Song refine it even further by removing all the other notes and leaving it with just a note repeated at an octave. It's evolution, baby..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasbo Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I know I am musically ignorarant and cannot pick apart and notate a chord Aor musical phrase to the extent of pluribus and some of the rest of you, BUT... When I listen to "Hey Joe" I never think of "Whole Lotta Love" and vice versa. Those songs, to me, are so different in their approach and feel, that even if you show me the riffs are the exact same notes in the same sequence it doesn't matter because the way the songs 'sound' affects the listener differently. Whereas Pearl Jam's "Given to Fly" immediately reminds me of Zeppelin's "Going to California", or ZZ Top's "La Grange" exactly recalls Slim Harpo's "Hip-Shake", and any number of Rolling Stones songs call forth Chuck Berry, listening to Jimi Hendrix never makes me think of Led Zeppelin, whether it is "Hey Joe" or "All Along the Watchtower" (nope, "Stairway" never enters my mind). I do, however, hear the Bert Jansch and Davy Graham rips, in "White Summer" and "Black Mountain Side". Agreed,I never in my 53 years of existance have ever thought of WLL and Hey Joe having any similarities.Same goes for the Ocean and I Don't Live Today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Agreed,I never in my 53 years of existance have ever thought of WLL and Hey Joe having any similarities.Same goes for the Ocean and I Don't Live Today. +1 45 years of existence for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathington Willoughby Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I know I am musically ignorarant and cannot pick apart and notate a chord or musical phrase to the extent of pluribus and some of the rest of you, BUT... When I listen to "Hey Joe" I never think of "Whole Lotta Love" and vice versa. Those songs, to me, are so different in their approach and feel, that even if you show me the riffs are the exact same notes in the same sequence it doesn't matter because the way the songs 'sound' affects the listener differently. Whereas Pearl Jam's "Given to Fly" immediately reminds me of Zeppelin's "Going to California", or ZZ Top's "La Grange" exactly recalls Slim Harpo's "Hip-Shake", and any number of Rolling Stones songs call forth Chuck Berry, listening to Jimi Hendrix never makes me think of Led Zeppelin, whether it is "Hey Joe" or "All Along the Watchtower" (nope, "Stairway" never enters my mind). I do, however, hear the Bert Jansch and Davy Graham rips, in "White Summer" and "Black Mountain Side". Agreed,I never in my 53 years of existance have ever thought of WLL and Hey Joe having any similarities.Same goes for the Ocean and I Don't Live Today. +1 45 years of existence for me. That makes four of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Page went on to steal that phrase again - the intro to NFBM, same notes; Black Dog, the same notes (in a different key, and with an added note); Bring It On Home even has a nod to it; Immigrant Song and The Wanton Song refine it even further by removing all the other notes and leaving it with just a note repeated at an octave. It's evolution, baby..... Black Dog is a John Paul Jones riff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtiphi Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 That makes four of us! That's 5 people! git yer math straight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathington Willoughby Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 That's 5 people! git yer math straight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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